I've been following this thread keenly, as I'm looking to build something very similar. Actually it was the reason I registered.🙂
The prime requirements I'd drawn up were:
>105dB at 1M performance
Controlled directivity for an even on-axis and power response
Reasonably low cabinet volume
Very low distortion, both harmonic and IM
This is for accurate monitoring of Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks. Meeting the level specs whilst remaining within the distortion and group delay requirements is hard.
The prime requirements I'd drawn up were:
>105dB at 1M performance
Controlled directivity for an even on-axis and power response
Reasonably low cabinet volume
Very low distortion, both harmonic and IM
This is for accurate monitoring of Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks. Meeting the level specs whilst remaining within the distortion and group delay requirements is hard.
The SA8535 isodynamic planar is an incredible driver, other
isodynamic planars costing $100 or less from HiVi or other vendors
just don't compare. I was looking for a driver that had audiophile
qualities with high spl capabilities without resorting to the use
of horns plus I wanted something that was more robust than
fragile ribbons. But ribbons are really not fragile, it's user abuse
that probably destroys them. /hehe
I ordered one and placed it on the test bench and tortured the
driver and it has not failed. I fuse the driver with a 3/4 ampere
AGC fast blow fuse because it's an expensive driver and I don't
want any accidents.
The active crossover I use is 18db/octave and I prefer to
crossover the driver around 2khz. For extreme SPL, 2.5khz
works nice. Stage Accompany told me they have systems
where they crossover the driver down to ~1.2khz - 1.4khz.
I've driven the driver to the point where the diaphram started to
buckle and it still did not fail. I've bridged my amplifier for 600
watts and driven the driver hard, it works flawlessly. You don't
need to do this, a 1 watt amplifier drives it well, but the dynamic
headroom of the monter power amplifier is incredible. Considering
that SA uses this driver for prosound and cinema products and
my listening tests, this was the convincing factor for me to buy
eight for my crazy long overdue project that has taken years
to mature. The cost of my project pretty much delays progress.
Buying 22 drivers for a stereo cabinet is extreme exaggeration
and if one was to build a standard 3 way design + dedicated
subwoofer, this would work very well.
Finding a matching midrange driver took a while, I had to buy
samples and do months of listening tests to find one that
I thought mated well.
Higher sensitivity candidates;
Focal 7K2
Focal 6WM
PHL 1120
PHL 1660
PHL 2520
Audax PR170M0
You can use other drivers too, the Griffin loudspeaker uses
the Seas drivers. This is more or less personal preference
since the market has good midranges to choose from. It's
just more difficult to find an extraordinary tweeter.
All the drivers are good choices but the Focal 6WM needs
alot of work to clean up the nasties. In the end I chose
the PHL 2520 8" midrange because it gave me very strong
low end midrange, very powerful over the 6.5" midranges.
The 2520 lacks the top end of the 6.5" midranges but it doesn't
matter because you will be low passing the midrange anyways
and the SA driver is able to operate well around 2khz. It was
the logical choice. Plus the 2520 100db sensitivity rating is nice.
But, I think the PHL 3450 10" midrange would be another candidate for a 3 way design. Since I'm line sourcing, I can't
go larger than 8". Even 8" is quite large and I'm breaking some
common rules of line sourcing, but since I plan to use an
active crossover I will be able to adjust everything in the end.
Andre from e-speakers.com recommended the PHL drivers to
me and I tried them out, they are good drivers. I think he also
recommends that 10" midrange, he sells the 3451 I believe and
if you want some testimony, I would send him an email.
The Lambda TD15 series of woofer is a great match, faraday motor or Apollo motor.
SA8535 drawbacks
1. Price - $600 US.
2. Front mounted speaker terminals.
3. Mounting difficulties.
#1 - The price of the Aurum Cantus G1 from e-speakers.com is
$469, a close compeditor I would imagine. Using this as
a reference, the SA driver it's too exaggerrated in price.
#2 - sigh. Front mounted speaker terminals? What were the
design engineers thinking? /lol I removed these terminals
and re-routed the electrical in the form of two speaker wires
coming out the back housing. This modification is easy if
you are mechanical and electrically skilled, otherwise I wouldn't
attempt this. You need special screwdrivers made of Beryllium
copper otherwise the magnetic field is so strong that you will
damage something inside because you can't control the tools.
This is a lesson learned as I already destroyed one diaphram
using regular tools. <-- lol I have details pictures on the process
in my camera, but I haven't developed the film -> hehe
#3 - There are holes in the chassis but they are not thru-holes.
sigh!.. The 'pcb board' inside is in the way and don't attempt
to drill thru it or you will damage it. There are two slots
(top/bottom) to latch on to for mounting. There is no traditional
faceplate like other 'ribbon' drivers. You have to be creative in
your mounting methods. You could route out the front baffle
wood to recess the driver and make your own wooden cover
plate (or metal) or you can design a faceplate and attach it to the
front of the driver and use the slots to secure it.
I took a more complex and costly approach. I designed a full
enclosure and sent out the design for machining. The custom
enclosures cost me $300 ea. It's 1/4" thick aluminum box and I
installed speaker terminals on the rear.
These are pics of the driver inside the enclosures - unfinished.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/photo.html
I decided to have the enclosures chrome plated but I have not
done so yet. It's next months project.
Finally, I stacked four of these SA drivers on top of each other
and did some listening tests. It's pretty crazy IF you
turn up the music. There is more than enough SPL to have
a concert at the local park, that is why I think a normal person
would settle for one driver per channel.
Another interesting driver is the PRD500.
http://www.slsloudspeakers.com/
But I heard they don't sell individual drivers for DIY. You might
want to verify. I think it is also designed by the same SA
engineer and it appears to be more user friendly from a
mechnical point of view.
isodynamic planars costing $100 or less from HiVi or other vendors
just don't compare. I was looking for a driver that had audiophile
qualities with high spl capabilities without resorting to the use
of horns plus I wanted something that was more robust than
fragile ribbons. But ribbons are really not fragile, it's user abuse
that probably destroys them. /hehe
I ordered one and placed it on the test bench and tortured the
driver and it has not failed. I fuse the driver with a 3/4 ampere
AGC fast blow fuse because it's an expensive driver and I don't
want any accidents.
The active crossover I use is 18db/octave and I prefer to
crossover the driver around 2khz. For extreme SPL, 2.5khz
works nice. Stage Accompany told me they have systems
where they crossover the driver down to ~1.2khz - 1.4khz.
I've driven the driver to the point where the diaphram started to
buckle and it still did not fail. I've bridged my amplifier for 600
watts and driven the driver hard, it works flawlessly. You don't
need to do this, a 1 watt amplifier drives it well, but the dynamic
headroom of the monter power amplifier is incredible. Considering
that SA uses this driver for prosound and cinema products and
my listening tests, this was the convincing factor for me to buy
eight for my crazy long overdue project that has taken years
to mature. The cost of my project pretty much delays progress.
Buying 22 drivers for a stereo cabinet is extreme exaggeration
and if one was to build a standard 3 way design + dedicated
subwoofer, this would work very well.
Finding a matching midrange driver took a while, I had to buy
samples and do months of listening tests to find one that
I thought mated well.
Higher sensitivity candidates;
Focal 7K2
Focal 6WM
PHL 1120
PHL 1660
PHL 2520
Audax PR170M0
You can use other drivers too, the Griffin loudspeaker uses
the Seas drivers. This is more or less personal preference
since the market has good midranges to choose from. It's
just more difficult to find an extraordinary tweeter.
All the drivers are good choices but the Focal 6WM needs
alot of work to clean up the nasties. In the end I chose
the PHL 2520 8" midrange because it gave me very strong
low end midrange, very powerful over the 6.5" midranges.
The 2520 lacks the top end of the 6.5" midranges but it doesn't
matter because you will be low passing the midrange anyways
and the SA driver is able to operate well around 2khz. It was
the logical choice. Plus the 2520 100db sensitivity rating is nice.
But, I think the PHL 3450 10" midrange would be another candidate for a 3 way design. Since I'm line sourcing, I can't
go larger than 8". Even 8" is quite large and I'm breaking some
common rules of line sourcing, but since I plan to use an
active crossover I will be able to adjust everything in the end.
Andre from e-speakers.com recommended the PHL drivers to
me and I tried them out, they are good drivers. I think he also
recommends that 10" midrange, he sells the 3451 I believe and
if you want some testimony, I would send him an email.
The Lambda TD15 series of woofer is a great match, faraday motor or Apollo motor.
SA8535 drawbacks
1. Price - $600 US.
2. Front mounted speaker terminals.
3. Mounting difficulties.
#1 - The price of the Aurum Cantus G1 from e-speakers.com is
$469, a close compeditor I would imagine. Using this as
a reference, the SA driver it's too exaggerrated in price.
#2 - sigh. Front mounted speaker terminals? What were the
design engineers thinking? /lol I removed these terminals
and re-routed the electrical in the form of two speaker wires
coming out the back housing. This modification is easy if
you are mechanical and electrically skilled, otherwise I wouldn't
attempt this. You need special screwdrivers made of Beryllium
copper otherwise the magnetic field is so strong that you will
damage something inside because you can't control the tools.
This is a lesson learned as I already destroyed one diaphram
using regular tools. <-- lol I have details pictures on the process
in my camera, but I haven't developed the film -> hehe
#3 - There are holes in the chassis but they are not thru-holes.
sigh!.. The 'pcb board' inside is in the way and don't attempt
to drill thru it or you will damage it. There are two slots
(top/bottom) to latch on to for mounting. There is no traditional
faceplate like other 'ribbon' drivers. You have to be creative in
your mounting methods. You could route out the front baffle
wood to recess the driver and make your own wooden cover
plate (or metal) or you can design a faceplate and attach it to the
front of the driver and use the slots to secure it.
I took a more complex and costly approach. I designed a full
enclosure and sent out the design for machining. The custom
enclosures cost me $300 ea. It's 1/4" thick aluminum box and I
installed speaker terminals on the rear.
These are pics of the driver inside the enclosures - unfinished.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/photo.html
I decided to have the enclosures chrome plated but I have not
done so yet. It's next months project.
Finally, I stacked four of these SA drivers on top of each other
and did some listening tests. It's pretty crazy IF you
turn up the music. There is more than enough SPL to have
a concert at the local park, that is why I think a normal person
would settle for one driver per channel.
Another interesting driver is the PRD500.
http://www.slsloudspeakers.com/
But I heard they don't sell individual drivers for DIY. You might
want to verify. I think it is also designed by the same SA
engineer and it appears to be more user friendly from a
mechnical point of view.
Aja! That will be 3K in tweeters for a 5.1 system.
A 5.1 system using these exotic tweeters would be pretty
incredible. Do you have a large room?
Even simpler design would be nice. Something like so;
Front two main cabinets (and possibly the center channel)
using the exotic drivers mentioned, but for the surround speakers
for a 5.1 or 7.1 setup, you could scale the design down and use a
standard design to keep the costs down. You still have the exotic
main system for music. /hehe
A 5.1 system using these exotic tweeters would be pretty
incredible. Do you have a large room?
Even simpler design would be nice. Something like so;
Front two main cabinets (and possibly the center channel)
using the exotic drivers mentioned, but for the surround speakers
for a 5.1 or 7.1 setup, you could scale the design down and use a
standard design to keep the costs down. You still have the exotic
main system for music. /hehe
Yes, it would be helpful to know the room size.
And advantage of the Aurum Cantus ribbons is that there are 4 models, so you could choose smaller ones for the rear channels and still have a simlar sound.
Maybe the rears are the 8" PHL's with the $300 ribbon
and the fronts are the 10" PHLs with the $450 ribbon crossed over lower.
here's a AC link.
http://www.e-speakers.com/products/ac-ribbons.html
I've heard that the AC are not too fragile. The $450 one is rated at 100 watts. 102 db/watt . You could get 111 db with 8 watts!
This is prob crossed at 1500 3rd order
Of course the SA give you peace of mind -they appear to be industructable!!
And advantage of the Aurum Cantus ribbons is that there are 4 models, so you could choose smaller ones for the rear channels and still have a simlar sound.
Maybe the rears are the 8" PHL's with the $300 ribbon
and the fronts are the 10" PHLs with the $450 ribbon crossed over lower.
here's a AC link.
http://www.e-speakers.com/products/ac-ribbons.html
I've heard that the AC are not too fragile. The $450 one is rated at 100 watts. 102 db/watt . You could get 111 db with 8 watts!
This is prob crossed at 1500 3rd order
Of course the SA give you peace of mind -they appear to be industructable!!
for Thylantyr
Hi,
very interested to this discussion.
Also I thought about realizing a similar project, the point of departure would be a tw ribbon as SA8535 or Heil amt.
what the point of inferior crossover would be low-pass recommended for the drivers of midrange
Focal 7K2
Focal 6WM
PHL 1120
PHL 1660
PHL 2520
Audax PR170M0
Valter
Hi,
very interested to this discussion.
Also I thought about realizing a similar project, the point of departure would be a tw ribbon as SA8535 or Heil amt.
what the point of inferior crossover would be low-pass recommended for the drivers of midrange
Focal 7K2
Focal 6WM
PHL 1120
PHL 1660
PHL 2520
Audax PR170M0
Valter
Re: for Thylantyr
My methods for crossover determination might be crude for
some people. I like to start with the tweeter and work down.
I prefer to use tweeters that operate well at a target crossover
frequency range of ~ 1.8 khz - 2.5khz with a steep slope, 18db
or 24db/octave. I don't really like the sound of tweeters
operating near 1.5khz or lower, it's a personal preference.
Midrange selection becomes easier vs. other designs that use
a 3khz - 5khz crossover range for tweeters. Any of those drivers
above can be low passed in that 1.8khz - 2.5khz range without
too much worries. The PHL and Audax have a more natural
sound when listening to them full range than the Focals,
therefore you can low pass them at a higher frequency if you
chose to do so.
valtergio said:
My methods for crossover determination might be crude for
some people. I like to start with the tweeter and work down.
I prefer to use tweeters that operate well at a target crossover
frequency range of ~ 1.8 khz - 2.5khz with a steep slope, 18db
or 24db/octave. I don't really like the sound of tweeters
operating near 1.5khz or lower, it's a personal preference.
Midrange selection becomes easier vs. other designs that use
a 3khz - 5khz crossover range for tweeters. Any of those drivers
above can be low passed in that 1.8khz - 2.5khz range without
too much worries. The PHL and Audax have a more natural
sound when listening to them full range than the Focals,
therefore you can low pass them at a higher frequency if you
chose to do so.
And advantage of the Aurum Cantus ribbons is that there are 4 models, so you could choose smaller ones for the rear channels and still have a simlar sound.
That is a more realistic and trouble-free design and it would look
nice keeping the same theme throught the whole house.
Even if you scaled down the design even more and used G3
for the front speakers and G2 for surround, it would be a very
good system for a much lower cost. Maybe look into a 7.1
setup at this point. /hehe
That is a more realistic and trouble-free design and it would look
nice keeping the same theme throught the whole house.
Even if you scaled down the design even more and used G3
for the front speakers and G2 for surround, it would be a very
good system for a much lower cost. Maybe look into a 7.1
setup at this point. /hehe
It seems that the tweeter is covered in terms of durabiltiy and output, but have you seriously thought about the drivers for the midrange and bass?
I've been leaning towards something like the ATC SM150 for a midrange (if you can't beat the kings of full range monitoring, join them) and possibly one of Adire's XBL2 motored woofers for the first few octaves.
From a power response point of view, a large woofer driving the low midrange should have a similar off-axis response to a wave-guided dome midrange (the ATC) and a directivity controlled tweeter, or at least that's my guess.
I've been leaning towards something like the ATC SM150 for a midrange (if you can't beat the kings of full range monitoring, join them) and possibly one of Adire's XBL2 motored woofers for the first few octaves.
From a power response point of view, a large woofer driving the low midrange should have a similar off-axis response to a wave-guided dome midrange (the ATC) and a directivity controlled tweeter, or at least that's my guess.
for Thylantyr
Thanks for the answer,
perhaps I am badly me express, I reported me to the low-pass of the midrange with the woofer or the least frequency that these midranges can begin to work.
Valter
Thanks for the answer,
perhaps I am badly me express, I reported me to the low-pass of the midrange with the woofer or the least frequency that these midranges can begin to work.
Valter
Those midranges should be high passed anywhere from 150hz -
400hz depending on which one and crossover slope. That is
the penalty you pay for using high sensitivity drivers, the useable
low end suffers so you need to design a good 'bass' solution,
either a woofer to cover low pass (150hz - 400hz) or split the
bass duty into two subsystems if you want more spl. Perhaps
a 'good sounding' woofer to operate between 60hz - 400hz
and a seperate 'high xmax' subwoofer to operate low pass 60hz
if you want to go crazy. /hehe Those crossover points are just
reference numbers to make a point. You can choose what you
desire.
400hz depending on which one and crossover slope. That is
the penalty you pay for using high sensitivity drivers, the useable
low end suffers so you need to design a good 'bass' solution,
either a woofer to cover low pass (150hz - 400hz) or split the
bass duty into two subsystems if you want more spl. Perhaps
a 'good sounding' woofer to operate between 60hz - 400hz
and a seperate 'high xmax' subwoofer to operate low pass 60hz
if you want to go crazy. /hehe Those crossover points are just
reference numbers to make a point. You can choose what you
desire.
I'm starting to think that hitting the magic 105dB at the listening seat over the full 20-20 bandwidth is near impossible with a 3-way, or at least a good one.
ATC recommend a high pass at about 320Hz for their midrange, which is made for SPL. Crossing over to the tweeter at anywhere upto about 4KHz is acceptable, which means that all sorts of tweeters are usable.
Other midranges either can't cope with the SPL demands or are unsuitable for use with many high SPL tweeters (the tweets would have to crossover too low, limiting their peak and continuous SPLs.)
So, I'm stuck with either a 4-way, with an 8" lower mid and a big old sub driver to pound out the bottom two octaves, or do I take a gamble on a 10/12" with low impedance, a decent BL/Mass ratio and low distortion?
ATC recommend a high pass at about 320Hz for their midrange, which is made for SPL. Crossing over to the tweeter at anywhere upto about 4KHz is acceptable, which means that all sorts of tweeters are usable.
Other midranges either can't cope with the SPL demands or are unsuitable for use with many high SPL tweeters (the tweets would have to crossover too low, limiting their peak and continuous SPLs.)
So, I'm stuck with either a 4-way, with an 8" lower mid and a big old sub driver to pound out the bottom two octaves, or do I take a gamble on a 10/12" with low impedance, a decent BL/Mass ratio and low distortion?
Hear to believe
Or…you just use a pair of Seas 8” drivers like the Griffin speaker that declares a whooping:
Peak level @ 3 m 121 dB (1600 W input, two speakers)
Peak level @ 1 m 131 dB (1600 W input, two speakers)
I wonder how this speaker actually sounds. Anybody listened to it? It’s intriguing. I’ve been asking to my colleges at the industry and couldn’t find any person that really listened to it. Mystery.
And there’s also the issue of the MTM configuration that I do not completely like. Maybe it’s just a subconscious consequence of listening to many lousy MTM central channel speakers…
A look at the photo of the Griffin shows two 8” speakers far apart and the big ribbon tweeter between. Obviously people that know about designing speakers designed it but it looks strange to me.
If duplicating mid speakers is the only way to get that elusive 105 db at 3-4 meters without appreciable distortion I’ll consider it.
Cheers
Ric
Mudge said:
Or…you just use a pair of Seas 8” drivers like the Griffin speaker that declares a whooping:
Peak level @ 3 m 121 dB (1600 W input, two speakers)
Peak level @ 1 m 131 dB (1600 W input, two speakers)
I wonder how this speaker actually sounds. Anybody listened to it? It’s intriguing. I’ve been asking to my colleges at the industry and couldn’t find any person that really listened to it. Mystery.
And there’s also the issue of the MTM configuration that I do not completely like. Maybe it’s just a subconscious consequence of listening to many lousy MTM central channel speakers…
A look at the photo of the Griffin shows two 8” speakers far apart and the big ribbon tweeter between. Obviously people that know about designing speakers designed it but it looks strange to me.
If duplicating mid speakers is the only way to get that elusive 105 db at 3-4 meters without appreciable distortion I’ll consider it.
Cheers
Ric
Re: eq
Well. Stewart makes a correcting box that is included with every micro perforated THX screen that they build. That eq device restores almost perfectly the amplitude of the signal at the frequencies affected, but it does nothing for the other artifacts that happen when the sound wave gets bounced back and forth between the speaker and screen. More that a loss of treble, you experiences a loss of definition, cancelations, weird thing galore. I do not know of any device that can help with that.
Not nice. Did I say I hate perforated screens? 🙂
Cheers
Ric
BAM said:
Well. Stewart makes a correcting box that is included with every micro perforated THX screen that they build. That eq device restores almost perfectly the amplitude of the signal at the frequencies affected, but it does nothing for the other artifacts that happen when the sound wave gets bounced back and forth between the speaker and screen. More that a loss of treble, you experiences a loss of definition, cancelations, weird thing galore. I do not know of any device that can help with that.
Not nice. Did I say I hate perforated screens? 🙂
Cheers
Ric
Re: Re: Building a reference active 3-way speaker for high SPL
Yes, I have the same feeling. That suspicion was the reason of my question, something seems to be not quite right there. However the other members of the line impressed me favorably when I heard them. Very precise and controlled rendition on difficult materials. This Model 25 is the new addition to the AIR line and I didn't audition it yet.
cheers
Ric
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Yes, I have the same feeling. That suspicion was the reason of my question, something seems to be not quite right there. However the other members of the line impressed me favorably when I heard them. Very precise and controlled rendition on difficult materials. This Model 25 is the new addition to the AIR line and I didn't audition it yet.
cheers
Ric
It's rare to find people that are interested in extreme high quality
SPL from their sound system. It's not an easy task to implement
unless you want to build the generic 'pro-sound' system using
horns and 12" midranges, 15" midbasses, etc.
Line arrays are an interesting avenue to explore also for high
SPL. My plan is pretty outrageous limited only by the room size
and money <hehe> otherwise I would go larger than the
generic concept sketch shown here;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/Concept-9g.jpg
Each cabinet;
Four SA8535 (2khz)
Four PHL 2520 (300hz - 2khz)
Three Lambda TD15H Apollo (low pass 300hz)
The woofers will be ported and tuned to 35hz, but I may
add a monster high excursion subwoofer(s) in the far future
if I feel even more crazy. It will be all driven by active crossovers
and high power solid state amplication for extra headroom. It's
a time consuming project for me that's been on hold on many
occassions.
This design I plan to do is more art than need, the desire
to build something outrageous -- just because --......
I will never drive and listen to this system at full capability in the
room it's planned for, unless I get a mansion then it may integrate
better. /hehe
The 100db sensitivity rating of the 8" PHL 2520 allows high spl
even with low power, but the midrange is robust enough to
handle my 600 watts of bridged amplification and the sonic impact
can destroy your ears from 10 feet away.
Just listening to a single SA + PHL2520 on the test bench is
pretty insane. It's very clean and loud, high impact music is
the best I can explain. If this combination can't satisfy in a normal
room, then I don't know what will unless you use compression
drivers + horns and 12" pro-sound midranges like JBL. But I think
the SA + PHL combo would offer better quality as reduced SPL
over the pro-sound design.
I will probably agree and say that one 15" woofer might have
problems keeping up with this combination, I think a dual 15"
woofer setup would be better, then later add a subwoofer
is needed.
The Lambda TD15 'faraday motor' woofer is nice sound woofer when
you play it full range, therefore it will sound good at any crossover
setting you choose. It's a wideband driver made for Nick's unity
horns, it's design to play up to ~2khz clean.
http://www.lambdacoustics.com/drivers/TDdrivers.html
I chose the Apollo upgrade and I drove this woofer in a test
box tuned to 35hz ported with the same 600w amp and it
had no problems. Originally I was worried that the small 2"
voice coil would not handle the power but I was wrong. I think
I can drive a 1000 watt amplifier into the Apollos without thermal
failure, but mechnical failure is another story because it is only
rated for 10mm xmax.
For my design, if room allowed, I would have preferred to use four
woofers per channel instead of the three woofers, but the room is
too small. /hehe
If the room was much bigger and money was no issue, I would
have explored a full line source with four cabinets. The 3rd and
4th cabinet would be for the bass array. /hehe
The ATC softdome midrange is an interesting driver that someday
I would like to try, but I never did like the sound of soft dome
midranges in general, perhaps this unique driver would change
my mind.
If you want a SPL midrange, then take a look at the 8" and 10"
PHL's mentioned and feel free to drive them with more power
than they are rated for, they seem to handle it well.
SPL from their sound system. It's not an easy task to implement
unless you want to build the generic 'pro-sound' system using
horns and 12" midranges, 15" midbasses, etc.
Line arrays are an interesting avenue to explore also for high
SPL. My plan is pretty outrageous limited only by the room size
and money <hehe> otherwise I would go larger than the
generic concept sketch shown here;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/Concept-9g.jpg
Each cabinet;
Four SA8535 (2khz)
Four PHL 2520 (300hz - 2khz)
Three Lambda TD15H Apollo (low pass 300hz)
The woofers will be ported and tuned to 35hz, but I may
add a monster high excursion subwoofer(s) in the far future
if I feel even more crazy. It will be all driven by active crossovers
and high power solid state amplication for extra headroom. It's
a time consuming project for me that's been on hold on many
occassions.
This design I plan to do is more art than need, the desire
to build something outrageous -- just because --......
I will never drive and listen to this system at full capability in the
room it's planned for, unless I get a mansion then it may integrate
better. /hehe
The 100db sensitivity rating of the 8" PHL 2520 allows high spl
even with low power, but the midrange is robust enough to
handle my 600 watts of bridged amplification and the sonic impact
can destroy your ears from 10 feet away.
Just listening to a single SA + PHL2520 on the test bench is
pretty insane. It's very clean and loud, high impact music is
the best I can explain. If this combination can't satisfy in a normal
room, then I don't know what will unless you use compression
drivers + horns and 12" pro-sound midranges like JBL. But I think
the SA + PHL combo would offer better quality as reduced SPL
over the pro-sound design.
I will probably agree and say that one 15" woofer might have
problems keeping up with this combination, I think a dual 15"
woofer setup would be better, then later add a subwoofer
is needed.
The Lambda TD15 'faraday motor' woofer is nice sound woofer when
you play it full range, therefore it will sound good at any crossover
setting you choose. It's a wideband driver made for Nick's unity
horns, it's design to play up to ~2khz clean.
http://www.lambdacoustics.com/drivers/TDdrivers.html
I chose the Apollo upgrade and I drove this woofer in a test
box tuned to 35hz ported with the same 600w amp and it
had no problems. Originally I was worried that the small 2"
voice coil would not handle the power but I was wrong. I think
I can drive a 1000 watt amplifier into the Apollos without thermal
failure, but mechnical failure is another story because it is only
rated for 10mm xmax.
For my design, if room allowed, I would have preferred to use four
woofers per channel instead of the three woofers, but the room is
too small. /hehe
If the room was much bigger and money was no issue, I would
have explored a full line source with four cabinets. The 3rd and
4th cabinet would be for the bass array. /hehe
The ATC softdome midrange is an interesting driver that someday
I would like to try, but I never did like the sound of soft dome
midranges in general, perhaps this unique driver would change
my mind.
If you want a SPL midrange, then take a look at the 8" and 10"
PHL's mentioned and feel free to drive them with more power
than they are rated for, they seem to handle it well.
studio monitors
I was interested in the same project a few months ago.
Here are some ideas: from bottom to top
1) JBL 18" - PHL/Volt 10" - PHL 6.5/AUDAX PR17MO - Raven, Dynaudio Esotar, Morel MDT 33.
2) same with 15" JBL, TAD, VOLT, ATC drivers
3) above 15" TAD with TAD 4001 compression driver and wood horn + Fostex supertweeter - this is a classic, of course
4) four PHL/Volt/JBL 10" and TAD horn and driver + cabinet with 2 JBL 18" underneath as "superwoofer" (see picture)
5) 2 VOlt 12" + SA ribbon tweeter in WTW arrangement
Any of these combinations are interesting for your SPL/low distortion requirements
I would consider using a few active adjustable crossovers (Behringer DCX?) to fine-tune the system, once in place. I would highly recommend soffit mounting.
Popular studio amp combinations: Crown Studio Reference I for subs, Crown Studio Reference II for low; Brystons for mid and highs.
BTW. I am currently listening to the Audax PR17M0 with a JBL 2235 (15") and a Vifa XT 25. I would say, forget the VIFA XT tweeter.
😀
I was interested in the same project a few months ago.
Here are some ideas: from bottom to top
1) JBL 18" - PHL/Volt 10" - PHL 6.5/AUDAX PR17MO - Raven, Dynaudio Esotar, Morel MDT 33.
2) same with 15" JBL, TAD, VOLT, ATC drivers
3) above 15" TAD with TAD 4001 compression driver and wood horn + Fostex supertweeter - this is a classic, of course
4) four PHL/Volt/JBL 10" and TAD horn and driver + cabinet with 2 JBL 18" underneath as "superwoofer" (see picture)
5) 2 VOlt 12" + SA ribbon tweeter in WTW arrangement
Any of these combinations are interesting for your SPL/low distortion requirements
I would consider using a few active adjustable crossovers (Behringer DCX?) to fine-tune the system, once in place. I would highly recommend soffit mounting.
Popular studio amp combinations: Crown Studio Reference I for subs, Crown Studio Reference II for low; Brystons for mid and highs.
BTW. I am currently listening to the Audax PR17M0 with a JBL 2235 (15") and a Vifa XT 25. I would say, forget the VIFA XT tweeter.
😀
Attachments
The biggest problem I've yet come across is that most low frequency drivers cannot displace sufficient air using the driver alone to achieve a suitable SPL.
I've been wondering if it would be possible to crib certain design elements from PMC's transmission line monitors.
They also like ATC are crossing over from a large (>10") bass driver to a smaller softdome midrange.
The bass drivers are Volt's, I'm not sure who makes their midrange.
I've been wondering if it would be possible to crib certain design elements from PMC's transmission line monitors.
They also like ATC are crossing over from a large (>10") bass driver to a smaller softdome midrange.
The bass drivers are Volt's, I'm not sure who makes their midrange.
Ricren,
Have you had a look at the speakers in this post from a while back (Unfortunately I don't know how to put the link in, but it was started on 10-15-2003 by AR2):
"Finally, my new LAMBDA-PHL-Esg3 speakers are done. Check them out."
The Lambda SB12 might not be able to get as load as the other 2 drivers, but the mid and the tweeter should be able to give you 110dB with tube amps (if that's your inclination).
Have you had a look at the speakers in this post from a while back (Unfortunately I don't know how to put the link in, but it was started on 10-15-2003 by AR2):
"Finally, my new LAMBDA-PHL-Esg3 speakers are done. Check them out."
The Lambda SB12 might not be able to get as load as the other 2 drivers, but the mid and the tweeter should be able to give you 110dB with tube amps (if that's your inclination).
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