Hello,
I've read a long article regarding driver break-in. In my own experience all the drivers need some break-in, and to my understanding, it will depend on the driver itself, the use that you do the unit and how you excite it.
The thing is that a lot of driver manufacturers has been asked and that’s what the ATC guys said regarding break-in when asked by the authors of the investigation:
“We do not consider 'burn in' an issue. When our loudspeakers leave the factory they are in perfect working order and their performance will not change over time unless they are not cared for or get very old.
I think 'burn in' was probably invented by hi-fi dealers so that when they sell a cable for 500 euros and the customer complains he can't hear any difference the dealer can tell them it needs 'burning in'. After the customer has waited for two weeks for the cable to 'burn in' he has forgotten how his system sounded in the first place and can't be bothered to complain again.”
Now I have a question for those who have experience with ATC drivers:
Is true that none of ATC drivers need a burn-in period to achieve the best sound?
If yes… do they have a factory break-in process? If they doesn’t have this process at factory… what’s so special with those drivers?
Now a general question:
In your experience, do you think that the sound from a loudspeaker will evolve during a period of time until it stabilises at some point?
Best regards,
Francisco
I've read a long article regarding driver break-in. In my own experience all the drivers need some break-in, and to my understanding, it will depend on the driver itself, the use that you do the unit and how you excite it.
The thing is that a lot of driver manufacturers has been asked and that’s what the ATC guys said regarding break-in when asked by the authors of the investigation:
“We do not consider 'burn in' an issue. When our loudspeakers leave the factory they are in perfect working order and their performance will not change over time unless they are not cared for or get very old.
I think 'burn in' was probably invented by hi-fi dealers so that when they sell a cable for 500 euros and the customer complains he can't hear any difference the dealer can tell them it needs 'burning in'. After the customer has waited for two weeks for the cable to 'burn in' he has forgotten how his system sounded in the first place and can't be bothered to complain again.”
Now I have a question for those who have experience with ATC drivers:
Is true that none of ATC drivers need a burn-in period to achieve the best sound?
If yes… do they have a factory break-in process? If they doesn’t have this process at factory… what’s so special with those drivers?
Now a general question:
In your experience, do you think that the sound from a loudspeaker will evolve during a period of time until it stabilises at some point?
Best regards,
Francisco
With the Fostex FE108ESigma (fullrange) I have seen a considerable (let's say impressive) evolution of base and overall-performance within the first couple of hours. If I hadn't read about that break-in thingy before, I would have probably thought my horns or speakers are screwed up, really.
Maybe it's because of the rubber-thing that connects the membrane with the flange (in German it's called "Sicke", I don't know the correct term for it in any other language) needs to break in first, since it's the part which is bent most. Also the membrane will loose some of it's restoring force.
I've heard from people who connected their new speakers to a sine wave generator at 15Hz and a few Vpp (out of phase to make them quite inaudible) and let them break in for a day or so.
I've also heard that that too much power (within the speaker's range though) is not appreciated by the speaker during break-in period.
Concerning ATC drivers I can't share any experiences, but with my Fostex I can say that there is a certain break-in time. With the amount of music I've been listening to in the beginning, I would say like a 100 hours, since then there probably were no noticable/audible changes in performance.
But sometimes I wonder if there's a plateau in the "performance-curve" (after break-in) and after some thousand hours of operation the performance decreases again?!
Maybe it's because of the rubber-thing that connects the membrane with the flange (in German it's called "Sicke", I don't know the correct term for it in any other language) needs to break in first, since it's the part which is bent most. Also the membrane will loose some of it's restoring force.
I've heard from people who connected their new speakers to a sine wave generator at 15Hz and a few Vpp (out of phase to make them quite inaudible) and let them break in for a day or so.
I've also heard that that too much power (within the speaker's range though) is not appreciated by the speaker during break-in period.
Concerning ATC drivers I can't share any experiences, but with my Fostex I can say that there is a certain break-in time. With the amount of music I've been listening to in the beginning, I would say like a 100 hours, since then there probably were no noticable/audible changes in performance.
But sometimes I wonder if there's a plateau in the "performance-curve" (after break-in) and after some thousand hours of operation the performance decreases again?!
Any driver with a spider suspension and surround (so nearly all dynamic transducers) will experience a change in measured T/S parameters as the suspension and surround are fully stretched from new. I've measured this several times in different drivers and it always applies to a varying degree.
ATC is no more special in this respect.
However if you're talking about an acoustic change in the midrange and top end over a period of time (which in every historical case of break-in has only ever improved acoustically) then this is what ATC is calling voodoo.
The human hearing mechanism is probably far more adaptive which is why people percieve a change - and this would also explain why it only ever gets better.
ATC is no more special in this respect.
However if you're talking about an acoustic change in the midrange and top end over a period of time (which in every historical case of break-in has only ever improved acoustically) then this is what ATC is calling voodoo.
The human hearing mechanism is probably far more adaptive which is why people percieve a change - and this would also explain why it only ever gets better.
I've used a few ATC drivers and currently run the SM75.150S mid with the SB75.234SC bass drivers.
I think that there probably is changes to the sound but I can't honestly say that I've really noticed any driver become better sounding during break-in.
I'm still undecided because I don't have any firm conclusion but like Vikash said, the electrical properties of the drivers do definitely change and since these have an effect on the performance of the driver then I'm inclined to believe the whole burn-in thing for drivers althought from my own experience this is either very slight or inaudable.
A good driver sounds good straight from the box IMO.
I think that there probably is changes to the sound but I can't honestly say that I've really noticed any driver become better sounding during break-in.
I'm still undecided because I don't have any firm conclusion but like Vikash said, the electrical properties of the drivers do definitely change and since these have an effect on the performance of the driver then I'm inclined to believe the whole burn-in thing for drivers althought from my own experience this is either very slight or inaudable.
A good driver sounds good straight from the box IMO.
interesting, I must say that I am surprised to hear an opinion that speakers don't improve in sound with break in.
Mine is that I don't think I've heard a driver that didn't improve with a break in period. For some it has been subtle, maybe even imaginary but for some it has been huge.
This is fresh in my mind right now as I just finished breaking in a pair of css 125's. Out of the box, no bass, no high's and the mid's beamed like crazy. After 100hrs of play I now beleive them to be prehaps the best value in a speakers I have ever heard.
I have several friends that claim cables need break in. I can't hear it if they do. I think if you spend $1000 on two cables something needs to be broke in
binarywhisper said:
Now now, your putting words in my mouth
I didn't say that they don't improve just that I don't notice it to anything like the extent others do/claim. The only changes I've noticed is in the bass region but even then this was small.Aclimatisation is probably half the perceived change IMO.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Now now, your putting words in my mouth
Aclimatisation is probably half the perceived change IMO.
Perhaps the changes are greater with full range drivers. I know that I had always found it to be a subtle, although sometimes critical improvement till ordering these little fullrangers.
My wife is not into audio at all but she noticed the difference in the CSS 125's and would agree that there was nothing subtle about it. She (well we actually) thought I had wasted my money when I first played them. They sounded real bad, possibly the worst I'd ever bought.
If you won't allow me to put words in your mouth perhaps I can spend your money for you
You couldn't lose ordering a pair. Great speaker for little coin and I can assure you will have no problem finding a friend that will happily buy them from you if you dislike them. lol , amazing the people you meet on the net eh? They speak for you, spend your money ... you need any dating advice?
Hi all,
From my experience, the change is very noticeable with most bass drivers after a couple of hours reproducing a sine-wave at high excursion. After this process the bass, that was missing, suddenly appear. The change with mids and tweeters seems to be more controversial. The last tweeters that I’ve used are Morel Supreme 110. The improvement after 20-30 hours playing music at high SPL was very noticeable. The sound was more relaxed, without some kind of aggressiveness that it had at the beginning. With mids I’ve get amazed on how the sound of a Skaaning 18H52 has enhanced with time. Don’t get me wrong, the driver sounded very good from the beginning, but the amazing is that has been improving for about 3 months, playing music regularly.
Most of the drivers that I’ve tested (I would say all with cone) needed some king of break-in, that’s why I got very surprised with ATC’s response.
ShinOBIWAN posted:
How do the SM75.150S sound? I’ve been thinking in using the SM75.150 in one of my designs but never did…
Best regads,
FRancisco
From my experience, the change is very noticeable with most bass drivers after a couple of hours reproducing a sine-wave at high excursion. After this process the bass, that was missing, suddenly appear. The change with mids and tweeters seems to be more controversial. The last tweeters that I’ve used are Morel Supreme 110. The improvement after 20-30 hours playing music at high SPL was very noticeable. The sound was more relaxed, without some kind of aggressiveness that it had at the beginning. With mids I’ve get amazed on how the sound of a Skaaning 18H52 has enhanced with time. Don’t get me wrong, the driver sounded very good from the beginning, but the amazing is that has been improving for about 3 months, playing music regularly.
Most of the drivers that I’ve tested (I would say all with cone) needed some king of break-in, that’s why I got very surprised with ATC’s response.
ShinOBIWAN posted:
How do the SM75.150S sound? I’ve been thinking in using the SM75.150 in one of my designs but never did…
Best regads,
FRancisco
Comments on the phenomenon go back well over 50 years. The explanation then was that the paper softened a bit in the areas most flexed, which softened the sound.
I would also guess that as the surround softens a bit with use, it becomes more absorptive of the reflection back into the cone caused by the impedance mismatch of the frame/flange.
Haphazard observations indicated that untreated Kevlar improved least, paper the most, and filled polypropylene somehwa less than paper.
IIRC (and this is dim indeed) I think it showed up in the strobe illumination pictures that showed cone breakup modes. Wharfedale???
I would also guess that as the surround softens a bit with use, it becomes more absorptive of the reflection back into the cone caused by the impedance mismatch of the frame/flange.
Haphazard observations indicated that untreated Kevlar improved least, paper the most, and filled polypropylene somehwa less than paper.
IIRC (and this is dim indeed) I think it showed up in the strobe illumination pictures that showed cone breakup modes. Wharfedale???
Why does no one look into how much the human ability to adapt to sound affects our judgement? This is just plain weird to me.
T/S changes are clearly proven. This may even account for changes in the lower frequencies as the surround and spider is broken-in. But any other conclusion on subjective impression based over a long time period without regard to your mind's intrinsic ability to adapt is plain blind.
T/S changes are clearly proven. This may even account for changes in the lower frequencies as the surround and spider is broken-in. But any other conclusion on subjective impression based over a long time period without regard to your mind's intrinsic ability to adapt is plain blind.
That's why I suggested not listening during the break in period, but just initially and at the end.
And quite a few tests have been done. They show that we adapt to room perturbations amazingly well for example. Other problems like crossover distortion or the distortion from mis-calibrated A-D or D-A converters tend to become less tolerable with time, although the stimulus is unchanged.
Early observations of the speaker breakin effect were made by people like H. A. Hartley and G.A. Briggs. I think the effect is most noticeable with paper cones.
Have you tried it yourself in the interests of research?
And quite a few tests have been done. They show that we adapt to room perturbations amazingly well for example. Other problems like crossover distortion or the distortion from mis-calibrated A-D or D-A converters tend to become less tolerable with time, although the stimulus is unchanged.
Early observations of the speaker breakin effect were made by people like H. A. Hartley and G.A. Briggs. I think the effect is most noticeable with paper cones.
Have you tried it yourself in the interests of research?
ATC bass drivers will be bound to change to some extent as time goes by, simply as a result of their construction, but this will probably be so slow that it would not necessarily be readily apparent.
It is also quite likely that the majority of listeners would not notice any such minor changes unless they spend an inordinate time in careful listening trials (as I do!) and are ultra familiar with their entire system and the source material used.
Some posters have already suggested some other valid reasons for this, but with ATC's bass units especially, there is another factor which enters the picture here.
Their cones are not made of metal, nor plastics/synthetics, but of cellulose-based material (paper).
The 'outsides' of the cones are coated with a PVA based dope, which will most probably be hygroscopic to some extent, and the inside surfaces are not treated at all. As result of this, unless kept in highly controlled environments (not a normal domestic situation), they will take on additional mass due to the extra water content taken out of the atmosphere. This will probably change the 'flexibility' of this paper, somewhat, because it will vary in stiffness (as all natural fibres do) when subjected to differing amounts of moisture, and the slight additional mass would also affect certain T/S parameters, too.
I guess that this change over time would be more prevalent with 'open' boxes, like TLs and ported enclosures etc., than with 'closed' boxes.
Additional moisture absorption is still likely due to the hygroscopic nature of the cones' outer surface coating, together with the fact that many enclosures are also made of wood, which tends to vary in moisture content, anyway. Therefore, even the closed-box type of enclosures will generally be affected to some extent, and I believe this is why some speakers 'sound' a little better in the summer, than in the wintertime, because in the summer the environment is generally warmer and/or less humid, at least here in the UK.
I am quite convinced that the same speakers (with paper cones) used in the tropics will sound rather 'soggy' in comparison with their use in dryer climates, where these paper cones will be more 'crisp' and lively in their musical presentation. This could partly explain why in different parts of the world enthusiasts seem to prefer their speakers 'voiced' slightly differently from others, which is quite well known.
I am not implying any criticism of ATC, nor of their response to the query here, as they produce some of the finest drivers in the world (3" mids, for example!) and precisely the same effects would exist with any driver of this construction.
ATC are truly excellent acoustic transducer designers/engineers, and I have found them to be extremely helpful in all their dealings over a period of more than 20 years.
However, just because they manufacture these drivers it doesn't necessarily follow that they understand *all* of the subtle factors at work here, as the following example will illustrate.
Some 20 yrs. ago, I failed in my attempts to encourage Tim Isaac (who was then ATC's tech. Guru) to try substituting plastic film caps for the electrolytics they then used in their passive X'overs. I was met with the usual response which prevailed at that time of "higher costs, much larger components to mount, and no improvements were to be gained", etc., so although I was aware of the likely sonic improvements to be had here, myself, I simply let it drop for the sake of diplomacy.
During last year, I visited ATC several times in connection with some 3-way speakers I had become involved with commercially, not of ATC manufacture, but utilising (mainly) ATC drivers.
During my visits, ATC very kindly carried out several acoustic tests (response curves etc.) for me with their B&K test set-up, including their own drivers and some competitors' drivers of similar specs. which I had taken with me for comparison purposes. Incidentally, these tests fully confirmed my previously and long-held beliefs that ATC drivers are (some of) the best available anywhere, and I have not since pursued any 'alternatives' for this reason!
However, what made me smile was that of all the passive X'overs I saw there during these various visits (and I guess I must have seen all that they currently use), not one had any electrolytic caps in them, and they now appear to use all polypropylene caps, everywhere!
It is also quite likely that the majority of listeners would not notice any such minor changes unless they spend an inordinate time in careful listening trials (as I do!) and are ultra familiar with their entire system and the source material used.
Some posters have already suggested some other valid reasons for this, but with ATC's bass units especially, there is another factor which enters the picture here.
Their cones are not made of metal, nor plastics/synthetics, but of cellulose-based material (paper).
The 'outsides' of the cones are coated with a PVA based dope, which will most probably be hygroscopic to some extent, and the inside surfaces are not treated at all. As result of this, unless kept in highly controlled environments (not a normal domestic situation), they will take on additional mass due to the extra water content taken out of the atmosphere. This will probably change the 'flexibility' of this paper, somewhat, because it will vary in stiffness (as all natural fibres do) when subjected to differing amounts of moisture, and the slight additional mass would also affect certain T/S parameters, too.
I guess that this change over time would be more prevalent with 'open' boxes, like TLs and ported enclosures etc., than with 'closed' boxes.
Additional moisture absorption is still likely due to the hygroscopic nature of the cones' outer surface coating, together with the fact that many enclosures are also made of wood, which tends to vary in moisture content, anyway. Therefore, even the closed-box type of enclosures will generally be affected to some extent, and I believe this is why some speakers 'sound' a little better in the summer, than in the wintertime, because in the summer the environment is generally warmer and/or less humid, at least here in the UK.
I am quite convinced that the same speakers (with paper cones) used in the tropics will sound rather 'soggy' in comparison with their use in dryer climates, where these paper cones will be more 'crisp' and lively in their musical presentation. This could partly explain why in different parts of the world enthusiasts seem to prefer their speakers 'voiced' slightly differently from others, which is quite well known.
I am not implying any criticism of ATC, nor of their response to the query here, as they produce some of the finest drivers in the world (3" mids, for example!) and precisely the same effects would exist with any driver of this construction.
ATC are truly excellent acoustic transducer designers/engineers, and I have found them to be extremely helpful in all their dealings over a period of more than 20 years.
However, just because they manufacture these drivers it doesn't necessarily follow that they understand *all* of the subtle factors at work here, as the following example will illustrate.
Some 20 yrs. ago, I failed in my attempts to encourage Tim Isaac (who was then ATC's tech. Guru) to try substituting plastic film caps for the electrolytics they then used in their passive X'overs. I was met with the usual response which prevailed at that time of "higher costs, much larger components to mount, and no improvements were to be gained", etc., so although I was aware of the likely sonic improvements to be had here, myself, I simply let it drop for the sake of diplomacy.
During last year, I visited ATC several times in connection with some 3-way speakers I had become involved with commercially, not of ATC manufacture, but utilising (mainly) ATC drivers.
During my visits, ATC very kindly carried out several acoustic tests (response curves etc.) for me with their B&K test set-up, including their own drivers and some competitors' drivers of similar specs. which I had taken with me for comparison purposes. Incidentally, these tests fully confirmed my previously and long-held beliefs that ATC drivers are (some of) the best available anywhere, and I have not since pursued any 'alternatives' for this reason!
However, what made me smile was that of all the passive X'overs I saw there during these various visits (and I guess I must have seen all that they currently use), not one had any electrolytic caps in them, and they now appear to use all polypropylene caps, everywhere!
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