I feel that you are shouting when you have a bold font
I can hear just fine with regular font
I am sorry! it is funny that you mentioned this lol.I found a post from you that said something completely different:
Mine is less glamorous: years of construction abuse, too young and stupid to protect my hearing (if I could go back in time and slap myself... ). I have heavy tinnitus in my right ear and hearing loss in both.
The audiologist says the tinnitus is the brain trying to compensate for the hearing loss, especially of certain frequencies. All I know is that the more I'm aware of it, the louder it seems to be.
Sorry to break this to you but I'm not arguing...didn't you notice? Why be so belligerent? If you truly believe that's fine with me.
All fine here buddy!. and I am sorry if I offended you. My apologies.
You are the second person to mention "speakers".
We are talking electrolytic capacitors in the power path.
If these caps reveal the poor PSR of the audio signal path, then it is the audio signal path that is weak.....and slightly better spec'd power filter caps aren't gonna fix that.
=RR=
So I guess all caps have the same ESR and ESL right?
if that so....shame on those brands that charge 20 times over the others caps since they are ALL the same.no matter where you use them!
Why should anyone prove it just because you ask for it? It wouldn't make my life any richer if an arrogant forum naysayer suddenly had an epiphany and realised different passive components could produce difference sound. The loss is all yours my friend. Those of us who enjoy the finer subtleties of hi-fi can revel in all it has to offer, you can not... unless you are so skilled a designer you can design out all component quality issues. Good luck with that
Most of us here are not actually designers, we are merely tweakers and tinkerers and so we do what we can to achieve the best sound that is available to us. That does always mean using good quality components.
Simon
Most of us here are not actually designers, we are merely tweakers and tinkerers and so we do what we can to achieve the best sound that is available to us. That does always mean using good quality components.
Simon
Let me concede, but in an area not yet discussed. It is an area, and a principle that I practice as I build DIY audio gear. I believe it is a universal principle in this respect among many home builders.
We strive to build our gear with electronic parts that have the highest specs on paper, and hold the best reputation among the commercial high-end market manufacturers (and fellow DIYer's).
We install these expensive passive components, not because we can actually "hear" the each individual part, but because we have been assured through techno speak, as well as rumor.....that it "must sound better". People claim "I swear I can hear it". I am not claiming it is all hogwash, but I'm pointing out that such claims influence others into hearing what is not there....that the subtleties gained by the use of an "audiophile accepted part" just does not change the MUSIC in the ways we have been lulled into believing. This includes "electrolytic cap break-in periods".
We have been led to believe, if our designs don't include the "best parts possible", that it will sound somewhere near awful, or just not anywhere near what it could sound like, if we had just spent the extra money acquiring these golden parts.
Frankly, this pseudo quest is an essential goal to achieve some sort of satisfaction in our private audio listening rooms. Consider that, for the most part, we are endless tweakers striving to learn the secrets of many talented and educated audio designers.
I am guilty of this too. I try to use the best parts available (within reason), because it makes me feel better about my DIY efforts. I feel the satisfaction when soldering them in, I feel better that I may have eliminated the rumors of whatever it is that cheap parts may inject into the design, and I enjoy looking at the finished circuit, and all those "recommended" parts make my ego glow.
I am "convinced" that it "must" sound better, with those parts in use. This has a huge effect on me being able to stop worrying about the damn "inferior parts issue", and allows me to begin to "enjoy" the music, and stop listening for defects.
I am fully aware that I am not able to "hear" (e.g.) an electrolytic cap upgrade, but knowing that I installed them, makes me feel better about the whole situation of audio DIY and the listening experience.
For the most part, I am aware that this is a psychological effect, but one that is essential when striving for the relaxing audio listening experience. Isn't that the result we desire? (......or is it a rainbow we're chasing ?? )
But there is a line.... a line, and a path beyond that line, of obvious pseudo-tweaks and audio nirvana rumors.....a line that I will not let myself cross, or walk onto that path. When I see a fellow DIYer profess that (e.g.) taking the skins off electrolytic capacitors improves the sound, or in this case, that your power supply electrolytic caps need to be burned-in and will then improve upon the quality of the music....well......I feel like saying something.
=RR=
We strive to build our gear with electronic parts that have the highest specs on paper, and hold the best reputation among the commercial high-end market manufacturers (and fellow DIYer's).
We install these expensive passive components, not because we can actually "hear" the each individual part, but because we have been assured through techno speak, as well as rumor.....that it "must sound better". People claim "I swear I can hear it". I am not claiming it is all hogwash, but I'm pointing out that such claims influence others into hearing what is not there....that the subtleties gained by the use of an "audiophile accepted part" just does not change the MUSIC in the ways we have been lulled into believing. This includes "electrolytic cap break-in periods".
We have been led to believe, if our designs don't include the "best parts possible", that it will sound somewhere near awful, or just not anywhere near what it could sound like, if we had just spent the extra money acquiring these golden parts.
Frankly, this pseudo quest is an essential goal to achieve some sort of satisfaction in our private audio listening rooms. Consider that, for the most part, we are endless tweakers striving to learn the secrets of many talented and educated audio designers.
I am guilty of this too. I try to use the best parts available (within reason), because it makes me feel better about my DIY efforts. I feel the satisfaction when soldering them in, I feel better that I may have eliminated the rumors of whatever it is that cheap parts may inject into the design, and I enjoy looking at the finished circuit, and all those "recommended" parts make my ego glow.
I am "convinced" that it "must" sound better, with those parts in use. This has a huge effect on me being able to stop worrying about the damn "inferior parts issue", and allows me to begin to "enjoy" the music, and stop listening for defects.
I am fully aware that I am not able to "hear" (e.g.) an electrolytic cap upgrade, but knowing that I installed them, makes me feel better about the whole situation of audio DIY and the listening experience.
For the most part, I am aware that this is a psychological effect, but one that is essential when striving for the relaxing audio listening experience. Isn't that the result we desire? (......or is it a rainbow we're chasing ?? )
But there is a line.... a line, and a path beyond that line, of obvious pseudo-tweaks and audio nirvana rumors.....a line that I will not let myself cross, or walk onto that path. When I see a fellow DIYer profess that (e.g.) taking the skins off electrolytic capacitors improves the sound, or in this case, that your power supply electrolytic caps need to be burned-in and will then improve upon the quality of the music....well......I feel like saying something.
=RR=
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Awesome. Do you have any proof? Have you canvassed builders, done studies, examined builds across disciplines? What do you make of the tube builders for example raving about inexpensive Russian paper and oil caps? How did you reach these conclusions?
RedRabbit,
I agree with a lot of what you say and I think much of it "feels" like it is true for many of us tweakers. However, it's when we stop taking things for granted and questioning other peoples' ideas things get interesting. It is only then we can judge changes without prejudice (impossible to actually do but we can get closer).
I often think that idea should be taken up by the naysayers who are so keen to jump on the intellectual high horse / bandwagon about passive component quality. You guys need to try nice parts too, and without assuming it's all "pixie dust" and "hogwash".
In my world, component burn-in and warm-up is an annoying problem, not an exciting fantasy.
Simon
I agree with a lot of what you say and I think much of it "feels" like it is true for many of us tweakers. However, it's when we stop taking things for granted and questioning other peoples' ideas things get interesting. It is only then we can judge changes without prejudice (impossible to actually do but we can get closer).
I often think that idea should be taken up by the naysayers who are so keen to jump on the intellectual high horse / bandwagon about passive component quality. You guys need to try nice parts too, and without assuming it's all "pixie dust" and "hogwash".
In my world, component burn-in and warm-up is an annoying problem, not an exciting fantasy.
Simon
I don't know why I bother posting about this stuff, I am happy to do things my way. The tweaks are not used solely in place of good design and functionality. Maybe sometimes they are and we get too carried away.
Personally I see Black Gates, electron pools, EnABL, cone feet, mains filters, CD treatments, laser LED baths and other naughty tweaky things as the finishing touches that make the difference between good sound and exceptional sound. I am not afraid to try things I can't explain. I am not an engineer or a scientist so I can't be expected to explain why some of these things work, I'm just concerned with whether they do or not, and for me personally.
I am not keen on people who try to silence the experimenter, as if the fun we have is illegal in most US states and unethical...
Personally I see Black Gates, electron pools, EnABL, cone feet, mains filters, CD treatments, laser LED baths and other naughty tweaky things as the finishing touches that make the difference between good sound and exceptional sound. I am not afraid to try things I can't explain. I am not an engineer or a scientist so I can't be expected to explain why some of these things work, I'm just concerned with whether they do or not, and for me personally.
I am not keen on people who try to silence the experimenter, as if the fun we have is illegal in most US states and unethical...
Here's what I don't understand about component burn-in, and the differences people claim to hear after the process....
>>> The "memory" of what it sounded like before the burn. <<<
It's hard enough to audition-and-compare two pieces of gear in "real-time" because.... by the time you disconnect "A", and reconnect "B", your memory of the musical nuances have quickly diminished .....in my experience, much too quickly to call such a comparison fair and accurate. (even if notes are written down)
So how on earth can one compare the sound, from pre-burn, to post burn ?
This is even a longer period of time.
=RR=
P.S.... Before someone accuses me of forming baseless opinions, I have built and use one of these, has anyone else ?
A/B Switch Box
(I used it to audition the differences in opamps, headphone amps, preamps, tweaks, etc...)
>>> The "memory" of what it sounded like before the burn. <<<
It's hard enough to audition-and-compare two pieces of gear in "real-time" because.... by the time you disconnect "A", and reconnect "B", your memory of the musical nuances have quickly diminished .....in my experience, much too quickly to call such a comparison fair and accurate. (even if notes are written down)
So how on earth can one compare the sound, from pre-burn, to post burn ?
This is even a longer period of time.
=RR=
P.S.... Before someone accuses me of forming baseless opinions, I have built and use one of these, has anyone else ?
A/B Switch Box
(I used it to audition the differences in opamps, headphone amps, preamps, tweaks, etc...)
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I think part of the problem is that on PAPER some higher-quality (audiophile) components might have better specifications... but does that translate into an AUDIBLE improvement. I would relate this to measuring lumbar with a micrometer for cutting lengths used for framework. Sure, the pieces will be exact, but is that extra 0.001" of precision going to make a difference. I guess that depends on your goals of precision, time, and money.
I also strive to use the "best" components that are reasonably priced, for both performance and personal satisfaction. I've done some A/B testing (input stage tubes in headphone amp and output caps on DAC), but to me even changing major items results in a subtle audible difference. For example I tested a couple of output electrolytic caps (Silmic RFS and SANYO OS-CONs) on my ϒ1 DAC to see what sounded best. They both sounded good and the only difference was a general warmth with the RFS's and a more pronounced clarity with the SANYO's.
Like RR points out, it was hard for me to exactly remember what I heard before to make detailed observations for comparison sake.
I also strive to use the "best" components that are reasonably priced, for both performance and personal satisfaction. I've done some A/B testing (input stage tubes in headphone amp and output caps on DAC), but to me even changing major items results in a subtle audible difference. For example I tested a couple of output electrolytic caps (Silmic RFS and SANYO OS-CONs) on my ϒ1 DAC to see what sounded best. They both sounded good and the only difference was a general warmth with the RFS's and a more pronounced clarity with the SANYO's.
Like RR points out, it was hard for me to exactly remember what I heard before to make detailed observations for comparison sake.
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