Hi Pmolina,
Actually, I had a very quick email from NAR when I asked about T-S parameters. They sent me a .pdf file I've posted below, in case it is of use to anyone. I agree completely about Selenium - both about the site being the best and about F's being too high. I also agree with you about car audio and SPL - I can't understand why people would spend so much money and effort for audio in their car, and so little at home...
I looked at the Bravox PSW12 but didn't come to amy conclusion, have you heard/seen anything using them for home use? I certainly don't have particualrly high SPL in mind, but an open baffle design may not be the best thing for a house full of small children (think small fingers poked into anything possible....)
Through Highef (another Brazilian participant here) I am looking into using the NAR10" SW2 in a T-TQWT, crossed at 100Hz. Not exactly what I was originally planning, but looks as though it may be pretty good, and I'd only need one, probably. (Highef has posted some stuff on a thread in the subwoofers forum
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/97674-collaborative-tapped-horn-project-346.html
if you're interested.)
I'd certainly like to hear more from Brazilian participants about drivers - apart from the cost of importing, which is no joke, it seems absurd to me that there can be SO MANY alternatives for car audio and SO LITTLE for quality home audio. If there are domestic alternatives from smaller companies (maybe Akron? or NAR? or Novik Neo?) then it is worth posting here (or sites like it) so others can find out. After all, they won't make drivers that no-one buys, and on-one will buy them if they don't know about them...
Um abraco
Nigel
Nigel,
since NAR answered you email, I would ask for frequency plot. As I said with Bravox (which stills gets most of my attentions in the comparisons I made), frequency plots may reveal nasty things about THD and SPL response near Fs. As Moondog already wrote, T-S parameters don't stand by themselves when evaluating a speaker.
I also have kids and I would suggest to go after a H-frame open baffle, it's easier to put a speaker cloth grill on it. And I also suggest to let your kids see you build the whole thing. You'll see that their curiosity will go away after it's finished.
About the horn design you indicated, I would stick to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). Since your SPL requirements are not high, simplify your woodbuilding process. Things can go very wrong if you miss any detail in wood density, type or the building measurements and process when dealing with horns.
The nasty thing dealing with subwoofers is that your ear can easily be fooled with a sound that may seem good but actually it may not be right. You need to have the right tools to measure or the reference material to compare to (like being familiar to certain instruments that deliver deep bass in actual live events). That's why things like perceiving distortion in subwoofer drivers is so misunderstood and underrated.
You're our "cobaia" (pioneer in English) in this quest 🙂
since NAR answered you email, I would ask for frequency plot. As I said with Bravox (which stills gets most of my attentions in the comparisons I made), frequency plots may reveal nasty things about THD and SPL response near Fs. As Moondog already wrote, T-S parameters don't stand by themselves when evaluating a speaker.
I also have kids and I would suggest to go after a H-frame open baffle, it's easier to put a speaker cloth grill on it. And I also suggest to let your kids see you build the whole thing. You'll see that their curiosity will go away after it's finished.
About the horn design you indicated, I would stick to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). Since your SPL requirements are not high, simplify your woodbuilding process. Things can go very wrong if you miss any detail in wood density, type or the building measurements and process when dealing with horns.
The nasty thing dealing with subwoofers is that your ear can easily be fooled with a sound that may seem good but actually it may not be right. You need to have the right tools to measure or the reference material to compare to (like being familiar to certain instruments that deliver deep bass in actual live events). That's why things like perceiving distortion in subwoofer drivers is so misunderstood and underrated.
You're our "cobaia" (pioneer in English) in this quest 🙂
Hi Pmolina,
The Bravox PSW10 is a similar price to the NAR 10" I've been looking at. I'll send email to NAR and Bravox asking for frequency plots.
I think I know more or less what you mean by an H-frame, but do you have a link to any plans (for any driver, just to tak e a closer look...)? I've done a fair bit of woodworking, so I'm not particularly concerned about doing a horn design - stuffing is another matter, but can always be repeated until you get it right. I'm more concerned with choosing the design that will give me the sound I'm looking for - if it's a horn OK, if an H-frame that's OK too.
You're right that involving the kids is a big part of the solution, but will only work with the 6 and 7 year-olds. The younger two (just 3 and less than 2) are a different matter.... Nonethless, a grille would hide the temptation....
I've always translated "cobaia" as "guinea-pig" - the difference between "pioneer" and "guinea-pig" is a matter of free-will, right? Although this diy addiction is a funny sort of free-will, if you ask me...😎
Um abraco
Nigel
Take a look at Martin King's conclusions on H-frames.
What is the size of your room? Depending on the size, a sealed box may be used as well, but generally it requires some equalization. I wouldn't go after a vented design due to the Q parameters found on the Bravox subs and the tuning of the flares usually are a pain.
What is the size of your room? Depending on the size, a sealed box may be used as well, but generally it requires some equalization. I wouldn't go after a vented design due to the Q parameters found on the Bravox subs and the tuning of the flares usually are a pain.
I'll take a look. Room is about 7m x 5m, although it is not closed off from the rest of the apartment (dining room in an L, et cetera...), so in all *negative* aspects it is larger in effect.
Um abraco
Nigel
Hi blmn,
Sorry, I missed your post. Send me a PM or email with your contact info, and let's try and round up anyone around here who's interested in this stuff!
Um abraco
Nigel
Hi njepitt
If you are looking for some low-cost options I know some, The speakers NAR, are a good option is what has smaller FS but this expensive in my opinion and only 4-Ohms.
Bravox, forget expensive and not suitable for what you want.
tell me what you want, two way, tree way. Which the power of your amplifier?
If you are looking for some low-cost options I know some, The speakers NAR, are a good option is what has smaller FS but this expensive in my opinion and only 4-Ohms.
Bravox, forget expensive and not suitable for what you want.
tell me what you want, two way, tree way. Which the power of your amplifier?
Ola Rafael,
My plan is for a bi-amped system. Highs and mids are to be from my present amplifier (diy F5, class A, probably around 20W per channel - I haven't tried to measure it) and present speakers (old B&W monitors). This is the system I use right now. This thread is about speakers for bass duties - if I stay with the original plan, a pair of woofers (single driver cabinets - maybe this wasn't clear) crossing at 300Hz or so - if I go with pmolina's suggestion then just one subwoofer crossing at 100Hz or somewhere like that. I am presently planning and building the preamp and electronic crossover, so there is time to think this all through carefully. The amp for the woofer/sub(s) could be a 50W Creek I have here, or a LM3876 gainclone, or I might make something different.
So, I am interested in any and all suggestions for Brazilian drivers, and design suggestions for them. I am quite keen on the T-TQWT design for the NAR 10SW2, and am reading up on pmolina's suggestion for an H-frame (probably using the Bravox). As far as money goes, if I only need one driver then R$200 or so is OK (although as always cheaper is better if still good); if I need two then maybe/probably OK. I'm not interested in anything significantly more expensive than this.
Um abraco
Nigel
P.S. Nao ha problema caso vc esta mais comfortavel escrevendo em portugues - como vc prefere...
Nigel, aqui não é permitido postar em português, se meu inglês estiver dificil de entender, por favor, me dê um retorno assim você me ajuda. Eu participo de outras seções deste fórum...
We will continue in English 😉
Is hard to find speakers for low-power here, for a mid range you need a speaker 4" (not use the 6" most do not respond well above 1KHz)
You find in OEM in retail sales of electronic components look for models of Sony or Panasonic
Ex:
Alto Falante 4'' 4R Quadrado c/Suspensão :: Blucolor Componentes Eletrônicos
R$28,00 😀
For TWT the best option is the Selenium 1TW-1 Silk dome but must be alert sensitivity is low (88dB), ~R$80,00 the pair. Another option is you buy the EBAY , usually you find a good model for less than U$50,00 (do not pay taxes on this value)
SELENIUM
See these models:
OEM gradiente 10", the seller has the parameters T-S
MercadoLivre: Subwoofer 10 pol 8 ohms Sub DIY - R$ 105.00
OEM Sony 8" parameters T-S unknown
Alto Falante Woofer MHC-GNX100 Sony ´Original´ - Center Panavision
Arhrom 6" this is the most expensive but has FS 30Hz
AKRONAUDIOTEC - Acessórios e DIY - Mid Bass Akron KB6
Some models that I put no parameters T-S, and you'll have to measure (no use to ask the seller because usually they do not know)
Audio espresso
People here used in loudspeakers the models: NAR, Keybass and Bravox endurence (discontinued) in speakers type transmission-line (not resonant)
whith amp Gradiente HA-II has 170 Wrms per channel. Think it not is useful for you
I should have some articles in HD about loudspeaker between them is bass- reflex in 6° order, uses an active filter to lower the resonance frequency (F3) I have the software which calculates that was done by Homero Sette engineer of Selenium, and another article on transmission line (resonant). they are in Portuguese.
abraços
Last edited:
Hi Rafael,
Thanks for all the information. The first parts about 4" and tweeters aren't any use right now, but will be handy in future, no doubt. I am really only interested in ideas for 10" or more at the moment.
The OEM gradiente is interesting - There must be somewhere in Brasilia that does maintenance using these, so maybe I can take a look before buying. The Sony looks a little small for what I have in mind. The Akron I've seen before, and I would be keen to try this in a two-way at some point, but it won't be big enough for now.
I've been reading on the site a bit since you posted. The Keybass Panther looks interesting, although it is much the same price as the NAR 12", and not very different in spces. Nonethelss, a good option. I'm not concerned about the power requirements - If the amps I have available aren't sufficient I'll make another one... 🙂 Joking aside, there are plenty of solutions for this which wouldn't cost much, although it is true that an impedance of 8R would be better in this regard.
I'd be very interested to see these if possible.
Um abraco
Nigel
Thanks for all the information. The first parts about 4" and tweeters aren't any use right now, but will be handy in future, no doubt. I am really only interested in ideas for 10" or more at the moment.
The OEM gradiente is interesting - There must be somewhere in Brasilia that does maintenance using these, so maybe I can take a look before buying. The Sony looks a little small for what I have in mind. The Akron I've seen before, and I would be keen to try this in a two-way at some point, but it won't be big enough for now.
I've been reading on the site a bit since you posted. The Keybass Panther looks interesting, although it is much the same price as the NAR 12", and not very different in spces. Nonethelss, a good option. I'm not concerned about the power requirements - If the amps I have available aren't sufficient I'll make another one... 🙂 Joking aside, there are plenty of solutions for this which wouldn't cost much, although it is true that an impedance of 8R would be better in this regard.
I'd be very interested to see these if possible.
Um abraco
Nigel
Here's a couple of general questions.
What information about a driver shows (or at least suggests) it would do well in an H-frame?
Many links that Google turns up about H-frames show two drivers in the same H, and few have only one. Any reason why this would be more common with H-frames than other designs?
Anyone have Linux software that does speaker calculations other than gspeakers?
Cheers
Nigel
What information about a driver shows (or at least suggests) it would do well in an H-frame?
Many links that Google turns up about H-frames show two drivers in the same H, and few have only one. Any reason why this would be more common with H-frames than other designs?
Anyone have Linux software that does speaker calculations other than gspeakers?
Cheers
Nigel
njepitt,
take a look at these drivers: http://www.bomber.com.br/Uploads/documentos/subwoofer.pdf
I think some of them can fit your necessity.
regards,
take a look at these drivers: http://www.bomber.com.br/Uploads/documentos/subwoofer.pdf
I think some of them can fit your necessity.
regards,
The price is reasonable for models Keybass and cost less than the models NAR for sub 10" (The models NAR costing much less in a years ago but had rise in price recently)
LEOSOUND - Tudo em som automotivo
This is a loudspeaker transmission-line with Keybass-Panther
Attachments
This is an article in Portuguese about transmission-line resonant (air-coopler), Works only in Bass and has a high yield, different from the loudspeaker picture above. Reading the text will notice that a speaker 8" is sufficient. Is an article from a magazine and the quality is not good.
The author has an interesting way to write...😉
http://ifile.it/s0nqdkp
The author has an interesting way to write...😉
http://ifile.it/s0nqdkp
Actually I was comparing prices for the 12" versions, which are only R$18 different. The TL you linked to uses the 10" ? Looks like it would be pretty acceptable to my wife, which is a serious issue in this household...😉 Do you have any link that describes the TL in the photo?
I'll take a look at the other link you posted.
And a very happy new year to you, and to anyone else reading this also.
Um abraco
Nigel
Are two sub 12", somewhat exaggerated for your objective. would also be an option you analyze Keybass 8" it requires a smaller power amplifier, but really sub 12" is that it has greater Xmax, but the power amplifier be a issue.
The sound of TL not ressonate provide a natural sound, the bass is clean!
You are not alone 😛
DiyAudio.com.br: NemPensar - Dipolo
This site has several loudspeakers, the HT Forum - Áudio, Vídeo e Home Theater you can find several boxes with national speakers
EX:
Sublimes, Bookshelf e Sub DIY - HT Forum
DiyAudio.com.br
You can send an e-mail to the author, he is a good person!
I found more loudspeaker with two sub 12" in configuration Push-pull (closed-box)
Attachments
Last edited:
Hi Rafael,
Thanks again for the detailed post. I've been reading most of the day about this stuff. (Except for a couple of hours I spent drilling and filing the box for the new preamp and active xo).
Two 12" subs would stretch things a bit; maybe a version with two 10" (or even 8") would be OK... I'm not worried about the power amp issue - if I need a bigger one it'll be an excellent excuse to build another !! 😉 Clean bass is certainly what I'm after, though.
(My wife: "ANOTHER amp ??? Why?? You have so many already!!!"
Me: "Well, honey, Rafael and the guys on diyaudio.com say I need a bigger one"
My Wife: "Whatever for?"
Me: "Well, you remember that big black box you threatened to throw into the street but in the end let me put in the living room?....")
I've been looking at the HTforum site, and have found some of the information you posetd below. (Don't understand all of it yet, but in time...)
I've also already exchanged emails with the author of this project:
DiyAudio.com.br: Resultados da pesquisa NAR
who has a new project underway using the same driver, which he describes
here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/97674-collaborative-tapped-horn-project.html
(The thread is huge, but the part I'm talking about is near the end.) This might be a good idea, or maybe adapt the same kind of idea for the Panther.
Do you have any experience with H-frames? It might be a good idea to get a driver (or pair) and put them in a H-frame to start with. This isn't much woodworking to do, so not much is lost if it's not a success. In this case, take the driver back out and build something more complicated like the above.
Um abraco, e Feliz Ano Novo!
Nigel
Thanks again for the detailed post. I've been reading most of the day about this stuff. (Except for a couple of hours I spent drilling and filing the box for the new preamp and active xo).
Two 12" subs would stretch things a bit; maybe a version with two 10" (or even 8") would be OK... I'm not worried about the power amp issue - if I need a bigger one it'll be an excellent excuse to build another !! 😉 Clean bass is certainly what I'm after, though.
(My wife: "ANOTHER amp ??? Why?? You have so many already!!!"
Me: "Well, honey, Rafael and the guys on diyaudio.com say I need a bigger one"
My Wife: "Whatever for?"
Me: "Well, you remember that big black box you threatened to throw into the street but in the end let me put in the living room?....")
I've been looking at the HTforum site, and have found some of the information you posetd below. (Don't understand all of it yet, but in time...)
I've also already exchanged emails with the author of this project:
DiyAudio.com.br: Resultados da pesquisa NAR
who has a new project underway using the same driver, which he describes
here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/97674-collaborative-tapped-horn-project.html
(The thread is huge, but the part I'm talking about is near the end.) This might be a good idea, or maybe adapt the same kind of idea for the Panther.
Do you have any experience with H-frames? It might be a good idea to get a driver (or pair) and put them in a H-frame to start with. This isn't much woodworking to do, so not much is lost if it's not a success. In this case, take the driver back out and build something more complicated like the above.
Um abraco, e Feliz Ano Novo!
Nigel
Hi Niguel,
why not NAR10 in a T-TQWT proposed by bjorno? You can build 2 and use in stereo mode as you told me. It would work fine since you have a large room.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...orative-tapped-horn-project-nar102-t-tqwt.gif
I'm building soon 2 enclosures (T-TQWT and TH) for the same driver to compare the results. You can follow the results in the Brazilian diy forum.
best regards
Highef
why not NAR10 in a T-TQWT proposed by bjorno? You can build 2 and use in stereo mode as you told me. It would work fine since you have a large room.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...orative-tapped-horn-project-nar102-t-tqwt.gif
I'm building soon 2 enclosures (T-TQWT and TH) for the same driver to compare the results. You can follow the results in the Brazilian diy forum.
best regards
Highef
Hi Highef,
This is one of the options I'm considering. In fact, except for the question of cost it is the option I prefer, I think, especially since your intended system set-up is close to what I plan. I joined the Brazilian forum, and will follow your progress there (and here) with interest.
I have plenty of time to think this through thoroughly, since I am presently doing the preamp and active xo, which will take a little time to complete, and so I'd like to consider all options. The other possibilities I see are H-frames or more standard boxes (probably sealed) either with 10" or 12" drivers. This would be more economical, especially if I use the Keybass drivers Rafael suggested, and possibly would allow for a slightly higher crossover point. (Maybe around 200Hz or so). I've just got back from trying to find prices here in Brasilia, and there is no chance of anything except Selenium or Bravox. So it looks like I'll be buying online from SP.
Um abraco
Nigel
- Status
- Not open for further replies.