Hi all,
I’ve found a small soundsystem on Facebook market place that I went and bought today! I was hoping for help on the next steps from here…
It’s 2 Fane 15” scoops unloaded (scaled down to 12”)
2 es18 loaded (scaled down to 10”)
And 1 8” midtop with 1” cd horn (need new cones)
My hope is to have it for a small house party/ outdoor system, and so far I think I need to: load remaining speakers, get atleast 4 channels of amps for each different driver, crossover and limiter (which will plug into laptop/decks) and I’m heavily considering buying a 18” hog scoop premade to reinforce bass
I’ve found plans for the scoops and es18 full size, if I can confirm it’s a scaled down version, should I plug these values into hornresp/akabak and see what it gives me? Seller gave me link of what he put in the scoops,(https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_speaker_12_280_8_w.htm) and I was thinking any 8” mid woofer with 1” cd will work.
i have a calibrated microphone, so my first step once I’ve verified the speakers are a perfect(ish) scale down is to measure the frequency response of the kicks, and find a suitable driver that goes high enough for the scoops and low enough for the top? Then once I know the limiting spl get amps that will drive all of them to atleast that spl with headroom. I’m also between a rack DSP like an ultra drive or DMX or daisy chaining 2 ADAU1701 together to get 7 out, only problem being it’s unbalanced so length might be an issue
My questions are-
How do I pick the right drivers/ how do I ensure they’re suitable? Is it just a case of plugging different specs into hornresp and akabak till I get a good response?
Will an 18” hog scoop (with pd1850) intergrate with the system well? Is there any way in knowing without picking a driver for the rest of the system?
And is there any parts I’ve forgotten?
If you’ve read this far, Thankyou!
I’ve found a small soundsystem on Facebook market place that I went and bought today! I was hoping for help on the next steps from here…
It’s 2 Fane 15” scoops unloaded (scaled down to 12”)
2 es18 loaded (scaled down to 10”)
And 1 8” midtop with 1” cd horn (need new cones)
My hope is to have it for a small house party/ outdoor system, and so far I think I need to: load remaining speakers, get atleast 4 channels of amps for each different driver, crossover and limiter (which will plug into laptop/decks) and I’m heavily considering buying a 18” hog scoop premade to reinforce bass
I’ve found plans for the scoops and es18 full size, if I can confirm it’s a scaled down version, should I plug these values into hornresp/akabak and see what it gives me? Seller gave me link of what he put in the scoops,(https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_speaker_12_280_8_w.htm) and I was thinking any 8” mid woofer with 1” cd will work.
i have a calibrated microphone, so my first step once I’ve verified the speakers are a perfect(ish) scale down is to measure the frequency response of the kicks, and find a suitable driver that goes high enough for the scoops and low enough for the top? Then once I know the limiting spl get amps that will drive all of them to atleast that spl with headroom. I’m also between a rack DSP like an ultra drive or DMX or daisy chaining 2 ADAU1701 together to get 7 out, only problem being it’s unbalanced so length might be an issue
My questions are-
How do I pick the right drivers/ how do I ensure they’re suitable? Is it just a case of plugging different specs into hornresp and akabak till I get a good response?
Will an 18” hog scoop (with pd1850) intergrate with the system well? Is there any way in knowing without picking a driver for the rest of the system?
And is there any parts I’ve forgotten?
If you’ve read this far, Thankyou!
You measure the internal volume of the bass boxes and use modeling software to buy drivers that 1 fit the holes 2 have a design suitable for your purposes. Vas Qt and Fs are the 3 parameters you use from the driver datasheet. If there is a reflex port, size and placement of that goes into the modeling software. You look for a model that produces 1. a flat response and 2. an F3 suitable for your purposes. I like 54 hz myself but I listen to classical music mostly. Flat works okay for R&R but won't shake your belly as the systems in discos/bars do. Most drivers require a boost from the box to produce lower than 100 hz; some drivers start rolling off in a flat wall at 200 hz.
Bass scoop bins act differently than bass reflex boxes, so you need modeling software for that.
If you are missing the CD (compression driver), then you have to buy something that fits the mount and holes on the horn. Matching the throat diameter and taper is ideal but it is hard to get data on taper(exit angle). Note most pro rigs have an incandescent bulb series the CD to prevent blowout if a phone plug pulls out and makes a pop, or a vocalist drops the mike. If you are lucky the bulb is still in there. They look like a glass cylinder with metal ends.
Bass scoop bins act differently than bass reflex boxes, so you need modeling software for that.
If you are missing the CD (compression driver), then you have to buy something that fits the mount and holes on the horn. Matching the throat diameter and taper is ideal but it is hard to get data on taper(exit angle). Note most pro rigs have an incandescent bulb series the CD to prevent blowout if a phone plug pulls out and makes a pop, or a vocalist drops the mike. If you are lucky the bulb is still in there. They look like a glass cylinder with metal ends.
Last edited:
They look good! Like a traditional dance stack.
To be honest, assuming that you want a cost effective and easy to transport system, I would sell this system and start with something else. This system likely needs a subwoofer, as bass horns cannot be simply scaled down - they become lower midrange horns. Add the costs of another midtop, all drivers except the ones in the kick bins, cabling, amplifier channels and DSP and it all adds up.
To be honest, assuming that you want a cost effective and easy to transport system, I would sell this system and start with something else. This system likely needs a subwoofer, as bass horns cannot be simply scaled down - they become lower midrange horns. Add the costs of another midtop, all drivers except the ones in the kick bins, cabling, amplifier channels and DSP and it all adds up.
Thankyou for your response!
In all honesty, a dance stack is a dream of mine even if unpractical…
Getting an 18” hog scoop for a “sub” for 30-80hz, and I’m scourtng eBay/facebook for cheap rack amps+ DSPs, and have kind of considered costing, I’m hoping for >£500 for this ( ultradrive, inuke 6000 for scoops, 4 channel amp for everything else)
I’ve checked them today and all cabs have drivers in, just need to check if they’re siezed.
About getting another mid top- do you think this is essential? If so is it the dispersion or SPL that indicates I should double up? I can get dif more powerful drivers in them for SPL but I guess it’ll have a narrow ish dispersion at HF.
Thanks!
In all honesty, a dance stack is a dream of mine even if unpractical…
Getting an 18” hog scoop for a “sub” for 30-80hz, and I’m scourtng eBay/facebook for cheap rack amps+ DSPs, and have kind of considered costing, I’m hoping for >£500 for this ( ultradrive, inuke 6000 for scoops, 4 channel amp for everything else)
I’ve checked them today and all cabs have drivers in, just need to check if they’re siezed.
About getting another mid top- do you think this is essential? If so is it the dispersion or SPL that indicates I should double up? I can get dif more powerful drivers in them for SPL but I guess it’ll have a narrow ish dispersion at HF.
Thanks!
Behringer makes a great market leader amp, when their products are new. Used, the schematics and parts cross lists are not available and they are not repairable by amateurs. Look for disappointment on the used market. I buy Peavey, crown Allen & QSC used amps, well documented and I have donated a fleet of refurbished class AB amps to various churches. Switcher supplies are light, modern, and likely to kill an amateur that delves into the power supply. I've fixed a few switchers but learned to ditch the jewelry and keep the off hand out of the product in industry. Transformer amps are heavy, obsolete, hard to move, cheap, and easy to repair. Class D is great if nobody is actually listening and you can afford to replace it every 6-10 years. Good luck on matching up the microprocessor or memory of equipment with those features at 10-20 years age when weird **** happens.
Why obsess with buying new mids or whatever? Put these in a suitable venue and take some measurements before shopping for upgrades. I like pink hoise tests at various places in the room. Yes, these cabs are obsolete. So what? What is your target audience? Conservatory graduates with perfect hearing that know what an acoustic instrument is supposed to sound like? Club goers that dance & imbibe, and are likely deaf as posts? What max volume to you want? 100 db? 110 db? 125 db? The latter may be beyond this setup. Modern "music" is all about shaking the intestines with 20-80 hz. Acts from 50s 60s 70s is more about a clean midrange, down to 200 hz maybe. Guitar singer/songwriter acts require low noise between songs, and maybe 100 db in the back row.
Last edited:
Hey,
Im sorry I don’t fully understand the response.
Was asking about new mid top as TBTL mentioned the cost of another mid top, I’m not going to get another until I hear how this sounds!
Regarding behringer I understand the hate but budget means I’m going to have to go with an ultradrive if I want a DSP with 5 channels out in a rack… I’m not set on the Inuke 6000 but I’ve come across a lightly used very cheap one and am looking at 4 channel crown and peavy amps for kick and midtop. Im not going to be doing any DIY amp repair as electricity terrifies me anyway lol. I’ve heard a good amp on the top is the bare minimum..
I guess the design intent is a good free party rig, with the option of renting out parts of it for house parties. so target audience is deaf bass lovers, ~115db volume
I’d love it to reach 130db SPL max continuously, flat ish down to 30~35hz, which I will get to with a larger 18” or 21” scoop depending on how low and loud the 12” can get, it would be helpful to be able to be ran on a 10KVA generator (so 5kw-6kw power total, as I won’t be running the Inuke at max it shouldn’t take more than 4kw)
A major issue I have is simulating them, as TS parameters of the loaded drivers are non existent.. which I guess I don’t need to do as all speakers are loaded(mid top is siezed) so I could just measure and see how loud/low it can get as is and go from there
I’ll need amps and a xover to get measure them still though,
Thanks
Im sorry I don’t fully understand the response.
Was asking about new mid top as TBTL mentioned the cost of another mid top, I’m not going to get another until I hear how this sounds!
Regarding behringer I understand the hate but budget means I’m going to have to go with an ultradrive if I want a DSP with 5 channels out in a rack… I’m not set on the Inuke 6000 but I’ve come across a lightly used very cheap one and am looking at 4 channel crown and peavy amps for kick and midtop. Im not going to be doing any DIY amp repair as electricity terrifies me anyway lol. I’ve heard a good amp on the top is the bare minimum..
I guess the design intent is a good free party rig, with the option of renting out parts of it for house parties. so target audience is deaf bass lovers, ~115db volume
I’d love it to reach 130db SPL max continuously, flat ish down to 30~35hz, which I will get to with a larger 18” or 21” scoop depending on how low and loud the 12” can get, it would be helpful to be able to be ran on a 10KVA generator (so 5kw-6kw power total, as I won’t be running the Inuke at max it shouldn’t take more than 4kw)
A major issue I have is simulating them, as TS parameters of the loaded drivers are non existent.. which I guess I don’t need to do as all speakers are loaded(mid top is siezed) so I could just measure and see how loud/low it can get as is and go from there
I’ll need amps and a xover to get measure them still though,
Thanks
Thankyou for your response!
The good bits
All drivers are loaded, some cheap drivers and no amps to see if they work as of yet.. the mid top is a £160 coaxial 8”, the horn CD on the top isn’t plugged in!
Cabs are in great shape and tuff cabbed
Have plans for Fane 15 scoop and ES18 for me to scale down and simulate
Bad bits
Kicks are identical apart from both cabs have the speakers in the opposite orientation… no idea how this affects it.
Was told the 8” is siezed and I wanna rip it out anyway and use something different anyway
No plans for mid top, no clue for internal volume etc
I used 12/15 for my scale factor (0.8) and then multiplied exp lengths by 0.8, areas by 0.8^2 and volumes by 0.8^3, copying someone else’s inputs from speaker plans and got this response with the current drivers for a single 12” scoop
Thanks!
The good bits
All drivers are loaded, some cheap drivers and no amps to see if they work as of yet.. the mid top is a £160 coaxial 8”, the horn CD on the top isn’t plugged in!
Cabs are in great shape and tuff cabbed
Have plans for Fane 15 scoop and ES18 for me to scale down and simulate
Bad bits
Kicks are identical apart from both cabs have the speakers in the opposite orientation… no idea how this affects it.
Was told the 8” is siezed and I wanna rip it out anyway and use something different anyway
No plans for mid top, no clue for internal volume etc
I used 12/15 for my scale factor (0.8) and then multiplied exp lengths by 0.8, areas by 0.8^2 and volumes by 0.8^3, copying someone else’s inputs from speaker plans and got this response with the current drivers for a single 12” scoop
Thanks!
If you are going for 130 db cheap drivers will not take that much voltage+current. You do not know what these are, may burn a coil at 50 vac or so. Plus cheap boxes may shake apart with high volume. The SP2 I own, were 175 watts in the 80's, 350 watts in the 90's, 500 watts in the tens, now 1000 watts.
You find internal volume by measuring with a tape measure and multiplying the cubes and wedges.
I do not know what UK used market is like but were more than a dozen 1000-1600 w Peavey amps repaired or used on US ebay yesterday for ~$300-400. Lots of people buy hulks and fix them up. I go beyond that, I clean the heat sinks, replace the fans, any dodgy pots or connectors, replace all the e-caps with long lifers for another useful 20 years. But I could not sell them economically with that much money in parts.
You find internal volume by measuring with a tape measure and multiplying the cubes and wedges.
I do not know what UK used market is like but were more than a dozen 1000-1600 w Peavey amps repaired or used on US ebay yesterday for ~$300-400. Lots of people buy hulks and fix them up. I go beyond that, I clean the heat sinks, replace the fans, any dodgy pots or connectors, replace all the e-caps with long lifers for another useful 20 years. But I could not sell them economically with that much money in parts.
Thankyou for your response,
I’ve found t/s parameters of the scoop and coax drivers
Coax- http://www.bluearan.co.uk/sales/bac/en-coaxials-8cx21-8.pdf
Scoop 12” https://images.static-thomann.de/pi...cs/283965_c_283965_datasheet_v2_en_online.pdf
10” were replacement for cheap QTX 10”, none avaliable but might be able to get power
My issue with mid top volume is the bracing and damping material, how do I consider that? Or do I just say it’s say- ~10% of volume
In hornresp the scoops peak at about 128db and could have a flat useable range of 121db 70hz-170hz
This is below my SPL goal but I’ll look at how much a driver that can get me 130db would be, and if that is worth it. I’ve also simulated a Ciare 12.00SW punisher, same range but with xmax it could play a bit lower at lower volume, and could be EQd to 130db, these are £200 each so probably not worth it in this project, but I’ll continue simulating different drivers and see responses!
Yep market is similar ~1500w crown peavy amps can be £300, and that’s interesting with the connectors, I wonder if they sound any different once repaired, obviously making sound is infinitely better than not?
I’ve found t/s parameters of the scoop and coax drivers
Coax- http://www.bluearan.co.uk/sales/bac/en-coaxials-8cx21-8.pdf
Scoop 12” https://images.static-thomann.de/pi...cs/283965_c_283965_datasheet_v2_en_online.pdf
10” were replacement for cheap QTX 10”, none avaliable but might be able to get power
My issue with mid top volume is the bracing and damping material, how do I consider that? Or do I just say it’s say- ~10% of volume
In hornresp the scoops peak at about 128db and could have a flat useable range of 121db 70hz-170hz
This is below my SPL goal but I’ll look at how much a driver that can get me 130db would be, and if that is worth it. I’ve also simulated a Ciare 12.00SW punisher, same range but with xmax it could play a bit lower at lower volume, and could be EQd to 130db, these are £200 each so probably not worth it in this project, but I’ll continue simulating different drivers and see responses!
Yep market is similar ~1500w crown peavy amps can be £300, and that’s interesting with the connectors, I wonder if they sound any different once repaired, obviously making sound is infinitely better than not?
So you have cabs that are in reasonably good physical shape, but scaled down from typical/classical design. With cheap drivers in them, and one of the installed backwards?
And a single mid/hiGH cab with a fried 8” driver and the horn not even hooked up.
If I understand this correctly. Dont expect miracles. It will be loud and have a lot of 70-80 Hz booooom. The mid/top isn’t critical considering what you have on the low end. Internal volume isnt critical, as the kicks could easily play up to 150 or 200 Hz, maybe higher. I had some pretty big ones (8 cubic feet, 42” long horn path) that would run clean up to 300 Hz with Eminence Kappa Pro 12’s in them. They probably went as low as your scaled down scoops do, too.
Thankyou for your response and knowledge! Exactly right situation.
As is I’m expecting it to be pretty gutless, I’m in the market for an 18 or 21” scoop asap. I’ve modeled the 10fe300 faitalpro in the es18 modelled down and got a pretty funky response but I guess I could cross as high as 300hz,(response below)
The mid top is vented so I guess I just want to make sure I get a cone that’s stiff enough to not overextend, and make sure it’s loud (xmax doesn’t matter if I’m crossing this high) and get a cheap CD that’s loud enough and fits to the horn, right? I have no clue with the 2 kicks with opposite orientations, I guess I’ll measure individually and together and see if there’s any major dips, If so, turn one driver the other way round
I’m looking for different drivers to model in both of the scoops, just to see if there’s any cheap drivers I can put in to get a big improvement. I’m still probably going to go with high power amps as I’ll only upgrade eventually😅
As is I’m expecting it to be pretty gutless, I’m in the market for an 18 or 21” scoop asap. I’ve modeled the 10fe300 faitalpro in the es18 modelled down and got a pretty funky response but I guess I could cross as high as 300hz,(response below)
The mid top is vented so I guess I just want to make sure I get a cone that’s stiff enough to not overextend, and make sure it’s loud (xmax doesn’t matter if I’m crossing this high) and get a cheap CD that’s loud enough and fits to the horn, right? I have no clue with the 2 kicks with opposite orientations, I guess I’ll measure individually and together and see if there’s any major dips, If so, turn one driver the other way round
I’m looking for different drivers to model in both of the scoops, just to see if there’s any cheap drivers I can put in to get a big improvement. I’m still probably going to go with high power amps as I’ll only upgrade eventually😅
I’d orient the kicks in the same way. Any kick I’ve designed the driver fits in only one way and cannot be reversed. No idea what the designer was thinking here. Pretty peaky anyway, probably just intended to run 100 to 200.
If you’re crossing to the top at 200 Hz any vent in the box just serves for cooling. Stiffness doesn’t even matter - as long as it’s not too stiff. A sealed back Alpha 8MR is probably too stiff and won’t let you get down to 200. But any normal driver would be ok. You just want the best compromise between SPL per watt and spend. Something like B&C 8PE32 is really nice (all of my big rig tops for 4 ways use them) but are over $125 now. Used to be right at a C note. Puts out 10 dB more than the similar Eminence Beta 8 figuring in motor strength and compression losses. Even THAT is getting expensive now.
If you’re crossing to the top at 200 Hz any vent in the box just serves for cooling. Stiffness doesn’t even matter - as long as it’s not too stiff. A sealed back Alpha 8MR is probably too stiff and won’t let you get down to 200. But any normal driver would be ok. You just want the best compromise between SPL per watt and spend. Something like B&C 8PE32 is really nice (all of my big rig tops for 4 ways use them) but are over $125 now. Used to be right at a C note. Puts out 10 dB more than the similar Eminence Beta 8 figuring in motor strength and compression losses. Even THAT is getting expensive now.
Thanks for your response, good to know about the vent, am I worrying about sensitivity and dispersion in that case? I’m looking at something sub £/$ 100 if possible for the midtop, I have a spare 8fe200, which would make about 120db at continuous power, do you think that would be a good fit? It’s about 5db down at 45degrees from 2k onwards
Thanks!
Thanks!
The FE200 series are kind of light duty drivers. But it’s not like it is trying to keep up with super woofers with 20mm of X-max, either. And people want bass, not to have their heads ripped off with midrange. 110 dB is more like it, factoring in peak to average ratio and power compression. Still loud.
All 8” are pretty much going to have the same off axis fall off.
All 8” are pretty much going to have the same off axis fall off.
Ideally id like it to do 120db continuously, even if an ideal listening response would be 110db, but with 119.5db at 130w(aes) it should more or less keep up with the rest of the system.
I’ve seen a variation of up to 15db at my xover freq of 2000-2500hz in cheap 8” on data sheets, luckily I’ll try this one out😁
I need to get some amps and a ultradrive next!
I’ve seen a variation of up to 15db at my xover freq of 2000-2500hz in cheap 8” on data sheets, luckily I’ll try this one out😁
I need to get some amps and a ultradrive next!