After a lot of time chasing this clicking trouble I decided to stop producing this board in it's actual form. There are some of you asking me to Not give up on this project and I won't!
Instead I'll leave for ever the price constraint criteria since it seems that I'm not able to build cheap products! I apologies to all of you for all this clicking mess and I'll make sure it will tied by the past!
Speaking of the new, unconstrained BluWave, I may need your advice on how it should be. So far I decided to keep the power supply of XMOS part to USB bus but leave the external PSU option for the SPDIF output stage. The input voltage will be wider than it is on actual BW revision. Something like 5V to 12V or so.
I guess this will allow one to power up BW from batteries!
The output side will have RCA connector soldered on PCB. I'm still debating if adding a BNC one in parallel will do any benefit?
Looking forward to any useful replies
Kind regards,
L
Lucian, very sorry to hear you have to stop this version of your BW but at the same time understand you have to draw a line under the clicking problems and move on.
Looking forward to the next iteration and I don’t have an issue with the cost. Always found your products very good value and would happily pay more.
For me the current version is wonderful and brings great musical pleasure and I haven’t experienced any of the problems that others seem to have with clicking.
The RCA would be a good addition and BNC could be useful too for some. The external power input is a must and the wider voltage is a good idea. Would that mean more complex regulators? My preference would be for the highest quality regs you can find. In fact I would be interested in a version that could bypass the internal regs.
Many thanks and good luck with next steps.
Patrick
Received 4.7uF 50v caps today but not had the chance to (try to!) fit. Hopefully will be able to try tomorrow and I'll report back when fitted.
Bob
Thank you all very much for your support, it's hugely appreciated!
@ Kim: sadly the cap mod will not work all the time! So far, Christoph and Bob did it without having any improvements! There was someone else (Max?) who said that clicks have stopped on his side with that cap mod. Anyway, I'm also not a believer in such cheap and "easy" fixes so I had my doubts that a small cap will be the source of this clicking problem!
@ Fabrice: thank you for your kind words! As you can see "well designed" expression may be relative sometimes! I had "user induced" troubles with WaveIO in the past but have been solved! On BW though, I personally test it using Ubuntu 16.04 or so on a laptop that I have lying around here somewhere and it worked... as almost everyone says: like a mess. At first, I blamed me due to lack of experience with this OS but later it came to me the idea to plug in a WaveIO card instead! Guess what? It worked like a charm!
Long story short: in the same room, with same temperature (perhaps a slight more at the end of my tests
), using the same laptop, running the same Ubuntu OS, on the same USB port (powered form it), listening the same music tracks with the same player, WaveIO plays nicely while BW does not. SPDIF output only!
In this case it's really hard for me to blame anyone for "user induced" errors! That's why I keep my mouth shut because I know the blame goes to the design(er) and not the user!
@ Patrick:
The board will be a bit bigger since I'm trying to design it to be fit into a case. The case is not big though, that's why I decided to put the RCA connector on one side while the USB and power on the opposite side: just to balance the physics there! Either way, gathering all the connectors on only one side is not possible due to allocated physical space.
Still, for now the case is in work and nothing is decided yet so any advices on this matter would be welcomed!
In the end I want to say that cap mod is not a fix! Perhaps Bob and even Christoph will say the same thing! I'm sorry but my decision on this revision is already took BUT I'll came back to it when I really find the source of this clicking issue and I can fix it using actual hardware!
Kind regards,
L
@ Kim: sadly the cap mod will not work all the time! So far, Christoph and Bob did it without having any improvements! There was someone else (Max?) who said that clicks have stopped on his side with that cap mod. Anyway, I'm also not a believer in such cheap and "easy" fixes so I had my doubts that a small cap will be the source of this clicking problem!
@ Fabrice: thank you for your kind words! As you can see "well designed" expression may be relative sometimes! I had "user induced" troubles with WaveIO in the past but have been solved! On BW though, I personally test it using Ubuntu 16.04 or so on a laptop that I have lying around here somewhere and it worked... as almost everyone says: like a mess. At first, I blamed me due to lack of experience with this OS but later it came to me the idea to plug in a WaveIO card instead! Guess what? It worked like a charm!
Long story short: in the same room, with same temperature (perhaps a slight more at the end of my tests
), using the same laptop, running the same Ubuntu OS, on the same USB port (powered form it), listening the same music tracks with the same player, WaveIO plays nicely while BW does not. SPDIF output only!In this case it's really hard for me to blame anyone for "user induced" errors! That's why I keep my mouth shut because I know the blame goes to the design(er) and not the user!
@ Patrick:
Thank you for understanding and support!
Yes! I'll try using latest, modern Vregs on it (at least on the output side + NDK oscillators).. perhaps the one that you're using right now
The board will be a bit bigger since I'm trying to design it to be fit into a case. The case is not big though, that's why I decided to put the RCA connector on one side while the USB and power on the opposite side: just to balance the physics there! Either way, gathering all the connectors on only one side is not possible due to allocated physical space.
Still, for now the case is in work and nothing is decided yet so any advices on this matter would be welcomed!
Your wish will came true since now I'm having the same goal!
I'm still thinking about that as I'm not decided yet! My sole fear is the fact that, in some cases, the external PSU used can damage the local parts due to all kind of reasons, for example power up spikes, etc! Because of that I don't think using external PSUs in this case is a very good approach! Not without assuming some (huge?) risks! Moreover, offering the chance for an external PSU mounted directly on the board will make the PCB layout to become not so optimal as I like it to be. This is anther constraint that I wish to see it gone.
In the end I want to say that cap mod is not a fix! Perhaps Bob and even Christoph will say the same thing! I'm sorry but my decision on this revision is already took BUT I'll came back to it when I really find the source of this clicking issue and I can fix it using actual hardware!
Kind regards,
L
Thank you all very much for your support, it's hugely appreciated!
@ Kim: sadly the cap mod will not work all the time! So far, Christoph and Bob did it without having any improvements! There was someone else (Max?) who said that clicks have stopped on his side with that cap mod. Anyway, I'm also not a believer in such cheap and "easy" fixes so I had my doubts that a small cap will be the source of this clicking problem!
@ Fabrice: thank you for your kind words! As you can see "well designed" expression may be relative sometimes! I had "user induced" troubles with WaveIO in the past but have been solved! On BW though, I personally test it using Ubuntu 16.04 or so on a laptop that I have lying around here somewhere and it worked... as almost everyone says: like a mess. At first, I blamed me due to lack of experience with this OS but later it came to me the idea to plug in a WaveIO card instead! Guess what? It worked like a charm!
Long story short: in the same room, with same temperature (perhaps a slight more at the end of my tests
In this case it's really hard for me to blame anyone for "user induced" errors! That's why I keep my mouth shut because I know the blame goes to the design(er) and not the user!
@ Patrick:
Thank you for understanding and support!
Yes! I'll try using latest, modern Vregs on it (at least on the output side + NDK oscillators).. perhaps the one that you're using right now
The board will be a bit bigger since I'm trying to design it to be fit into a case. The case is not big though, that's why I decided to put the RCA connector on one side while the USB and power on the opposite side: just to balance the physics there! Either way, gathering all the connectors on only one side is not possible due to allocated physical space.
Still, for now the case is in work and nothing is decided yet so any advices on this matter would be welcomed!
Your wish will came true since now I'm having the same goal!
I'm still thinking about that as I'm not decided yet! My sole fear is the fact that, in some cases, the external PSU used can damage the local parts due to all kind of reasons, for example power up spikes, etc! Because of that I don't think using external PSUs in this case is a very good approach! Not without assuming some (huge?) risks! Moreover, offering the chance for an external PSU mounted directly on the board will make the PCB layout to become not so optimal as I like it to be. This is anther constraint that I wish to see it gone.
In the end I want to say that cap mod is not a fix! Perhaps Bob and even Christoph will say the same thing! I'm sorry but my decision on this revision is already took BUT I'll came back to it when I really find the source of this clicking issue and I can fix it using actual hardware!
Kind regards,
L
Hi Lorien,
I am Sorry to hear About the test results with the extra cap.
Have you tried the resistor modification from post 190 usb phy document where they increase a 1k resistor to 20kohm to xmos chip to avoid audio glitches?
Thx
My personal BluWave impressions
I am new on this forum, but I'm not new to DIY or audiophile forums though. I got the tip of the BluWave by Patrick on my thread "The true experimental tweak thread" at CA.
I received my BluWave a couple of days ago and was fully aware of issues people was experiencing with the board. But knowing that almost any other galvanicly isolated USB device around had similar issues when launched it did'nt really scare me that much. I simply loved the BluWave board. It was love at first sight when Patrick sent me a picture if it. After some additional waiting for it to arrive due to some last minute changes it finally arrived!
I thought to add some pictures here, but realized that I do not know how to do that on diyAudio just yet!
Anyway, I immediately added a butchered Gotham GAC-1 Pro plus Canare 4S6 starquad DC cable to the board. I installed in my setup looking like this:
Aries Mini>ATL starquad JSSG USB cable>ISO Regen>USPCB>BluWave with a 5v/1A powerbank powering the board>GAC-1>Brooklyn DAC>Fostex TH900
I will not go into much details regarding other things in my setup since it will take too long. I can just say that I like to experiment a lot so it is was sounding really awesome before I plugged the BluWave in.
How did it turn out? I was really blown away by the improvement the BluWave added to my setup. It simply sounds magical now with a LOT of more fibers and details digged up out of nowhere. I hear things crystal clear now that was more vague before. Great ambience, depth and 3D that I personally hold dear. Improved bass performance with bass notes pounding without being bloat or harsh.
No clicks, pops, ticks, distortions or whatever. Just magical music making me smile from ear to ear!
A big hug to Lucian for making such a great product. It will not leave my setup for a very long time. What can I say? Really great work of keeping this fellow a truly happy camper!
Micael
I am new on this forum, but I'm not new to DIY or audiophile forums though. I got the tip of the BluWave by Patrick on my thread "The true experimental tweak thread" at CA.
I received my BluWave a couple of days ago and was fully aware of issues people was experiencing with the board. But knowing that almost any other galvanicly isolated USB device around had similar issues when launched it did'nt really scare me that much. I simply loved the BluWave board. It was love at first sight when Patrick sent me a picture if it. After some additional waiting for it to arrive due to some last minute changes it finally arrived!
I thought to add some pictures here, but realized that I do not know how to do that on diyAudio just yet!
Anyway, I immediately added a butchered Gotham GAC-1 Pro plus Canare 4S6 starquad DC cable to the board. I installed in my setup looking like this:
Aries Mini>ATL starquad JSSG USB cable>ISO Regen>USPCB>BluWave with a 5v/1A powerbank powering the board>GAC-1>Brooklyn DAC>Fostex TH900
I will not go into much details regarding other things in my setup since it will take too long. I can just say that I like to experiment a lot so it is was sounding really awesome before I plugged the BluWave in.
How did it turn out? I was really blown away by the improvement the BluWave added to my setup. It simply sounds magical now with a LOT of more fibers and details digged up out of nowhere. I hear things crystal clear now that was more vague before. Great ambience, depth and 3D that I personally hold dear. Improved bass performance with bass notes pounding without being bloat or harsh.
No clicks, pops, ticks, distortions or whatever. Just magical music making me smile from ear to ear!
A big hug to Lucian for making such a great product. It will not leave my setup for a very long time. What can I say? Really great work of keeping this fellow a truly happy camper!
Micael
Yes I can confirm the cap mod didn't fix the clicking issue on my BW. For me the clicking isn't too intrusive, just like the occasional click when playing a vinyl LP, so I'll carry on using BW. I like the balanced sound it produces which, for me, is slightly better than WaveIO.
I'm sure Lucian will go on to produce another USB -> S/PDIF board which we will all enjoy using.
Bob
Yes, that fix was made a couple of years back for WaveIO and I always keep track of those changes to avoid troubles in the future. In BW case, that 20K resistor was already took into account and, on either PCB revision is made by two parts wired in series, 10K + 10K which on your board are labeled as R3 and R4.
You can probe them by put your multimeter's leads on the pads closest to the USB connector. You will see 20K +/- 2% or so.
@ Micael: I never expected you'll post here, than you for doing that!
Yes, it took forever for your board to reach you as it was slightly changed a couple of times along the way but I hope it worth the wait! Have fun with it and I hope it will make your life easier and enjoyable!
@ Bob: In the close future my main goal is to find the source of this clicking mess and try to avoid it for as much as possible So, my immediate move would be to try some small changes to actual PCB just to see that click gone! I already start changing the actual PCB and now I'm discussing tech details with the PCB manufacturer to be sure this time will be made as expected!
I'll keep you in touch on how things are evolving,
L
@Lorien
No problem. It was my pleasure! It was the least I could do when it made such a great impact in my setup. I am really thrilled about the BW. I will start looking for a suitable case for it and make it a solid part of my system. The BW also made the device to lock much faster and more reliable than before which was a welcomed addition that I actually did'nt expect.
Thanks again for a truly brilliant product!
No problem. It was my pleasure!
It was the least I could do when it made such a great impact in my setup. I am really thrilled about the BW. I will start looking for a suitable case for it and make it a solid part of my system. The BW also made the device to lock much faster and more reliable than before which was a welcomed addition that I actually did'nt expect.Thanks again for a truly brilliant product!
Hello Kim,
thank you for help! Sadly, as far as I could see, the software you linked me to is for Windows OS only so no use on Ubuntu. Perhaps I should try to use a virtual machine on Ubuntu and install Windows on it. I wonder how complicate things might get...
As for WaveIO vs BluWave differences, all major ones that I thought it might influence the BW functionality were also tested on WaveIO. For example, I wired the isolated/SPDIF output side of BW to WaveIO through the isolator while disabling the on-board oscillators on WaveIO.=> WaveIO worked... so my initial assumption that clicking noise is coming from the jittery nature of the low cost isolator is not true. Perhaps this is the reason why some BW boards didn't worked even with the new isolator was mounted in place!
As for the rest, the single differences are on the input/USB side. The traces on BW are length-matched and were theoretically made to have 90 R impedances. I say "theoretically" because on reality, things may get confusing... hence my struggle to get access to a gear just to measure the eye diagram of those signals.
Kind regards,
L
Hi Lorien how is it going, have you found anything new regarding clicking issue?
Anything more about connecting front from WaveIO to Bluewave board?
Best regards.
@ Kim: so far I'm still fast learning how to use my newly acquired logic analyzer just to check the ULPI signal's alignments to their referenced clock.
I'm hoping that soon I'll post some pictures of the outcome of my tests.
Look forward to see your measurements also to learn something about ULPI signals😊
@ Lorien
I have a question regarding the word clock sockets (J6 & J7) on the BluWave board. In the beginning of this thread you call them uBNC, but are'nt they U.FL?
I am planning to connect my Brooklyn DAC word clock output to the BluWave board to see if that improve things further. As far as I can see the U.FL is just 50 ohm and not 75 ohm.
Best regards,
Micael
I have a question regarding the word clock sockets (J6 & J7) on the BluWave board. In the beginning of this thread you call them uBNC, but are'nt they U.FL?
I am planning to connect my Brooklyn DAC word clock output to the BluWave board to see if that improve things further. As far as I can see the U.FL is just 50 ohm and not 75 ohm.
Best regards,
Micael
Hello Micael,
they are the same thing in my eyes! Yes, those parts are U.FL.s!
As for the external clock option, what frequency does it have? FYI, you'll need 22.5792 MHz AND/OR 24.576 Mhz clock signals.
I say AND/OR because 22.5792 MHZ clock is used for 44.1 fs family of sample rates while the other one is for 48 fs ones.
If you'll feed only one clock signal then when you'll try to play any tracks form the other family you'll end up with an error.
Moreover, there are some instability issues related to partial clock feeding of the XMOS processor so it would be better if you'll have the option to feed up your BW board with all the required clock signals!
Kind regards,
L
they are the same thing in my eyes! Yes, those parts are U.FL.s!
As for the external clock option, what frequency does it have? FYI, you'll need 22.5792 MHz AND/OR 24.576 Mhz clock signals.
I say AND/OR because 22.5792 MHZ clock is used for 44.1 fs family of sample rates while the other one is for 48 fs ones.
If you'll feed only one clock signal then when you'll try to play any tracks form the other family you'll end up with an error.
Moreover, there are some instability issues related to partial clock feeding of the XMOS processor so it would be better if you'll have the option to feed up your BW board with all the required clock signals!
Kind regards,
L
Thanks! I just had problems searching Google for uBNC´s or micro BNC´s since they did´nt look the same until I finally found the U.FL´s!
Since my source is Tidal streaming only I will use the 22.5792 MHz (J6). The Brooklyn DAC will act as the master and can be set to 44,1-192 kHz according to the manual:
9.2.5 Sync
There is always only one master device in digital world. The others have to operate as a slave.
That is why an external digital devices such as CD players, digital recorders etc. have to be also
configured properly. Otherwise clicks, drops, distortions might appear in the final signal. Following
sync options are available:
• INT (Internal) / USB / Inncoming signal is synced to the converter’s ultra-low jitter internal
crystal oscillator. This choice assures the best DAC performance and is superior to any (even
Atomic) clock supplied from outside because of its close proximity to DAC clocking chipset. The
DAC operates as master device. WordClock OUT transmits master clock signal
• WCK (Word Clock) / available for USB, AES, SPDIF1 &2, Toslink, SDIF / the DAC can operate as
the master or slave device.
The Brooklyn DAC is master and external device is slave: Brooklyn DAC WCK OUT -> external device WCK IN
The Brooklyn DAC is slave and external device is master: Brooklyn DAC WCK IN -> external device WCK OUT
• IN (Input) /available for AES, SPDIF1 &2, Toslink / the DAC operates as slave device.
• 44,1 – 192 kHz (Internal) /available for AES, SPDIF1 &2, Toslink / the DAC operates as master
device, WordClock OUT transmits master clock signal.
• x64 – x256 (Internal) /available for SDIF / the DAC operates as master device
With that said this is my first ever attempt to try out the word clock option. I do not have any blown-up expectations by this route. It is just fun to try it!
Hi Lucien!
I did my first clock attempts last night. Somehow the clock signal did'nt lock on between BluWave and Brooklyn DAC. I suspect the reason could be my 50 ohm coax cable which really is a wifi antenna cable with a BNC adapter. Do the clock signal require 75 ohm or is there any other reasons why it does'nt lock when the settings is correct?
I did experience a jump in SQ when I synced the Spdif signal to 44.1kHz on FLAC and 48kHz on MQA, but that's likely because the Brooklyn DAC is acting as the master.
Micael
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.