Peter Daniel said:
Yup. Which is why I haven't paid much attention to it. But I saw a new post from SY and thought I'd see what he had to say and the opportunity for a smart-*** comment arose and well... 🙂
se
Folks,
After loading Win2K Pro, negotiating the torturous upgrade path, finding and loading the bloody drivers, working through the motherboard freeze, the interminable reconstructions, I finally have a !@#$ PC again. 😡
I have read all the posts of the last three days with rapt interest. Some wonderful, useful responses, thank you, I learn a lot. 😉
To defuse Mikek's comment about ladies of the night (and day??), I would say that he may have been speaking on purely sociological grounds, and I agree categorically.
His comments may not be from personal experience, but hey, who cares??? What business is it of ours anyway? All I can say is that as a young man I never met enough of them. In fact, unwittingly perhaps, I never met ONE of them. Arguably to my regret.....life is not a dress rehearsal.
On negative feedback, was it not Matti Otala who showed mathematically that a global feedback node serves as a a mixing point, triggering the creation of intermodulation artefacts? And that the more this feedback, then the greater the diminution of artefacts, but the more they skewed towards the higher orders, to which our ears are preternaturally sensitive?
Thus, given the intermodulation phenomena at the FB node of a global NFB amplifier of any kind, would it not be reasonable to suppose that issues like decay would also be affected? (this is quite a mental leap, I admit).
I have indeed found this to be so. Decay of percussive notes, particularly hihats, small drums, and triangles, is intimately related both to the amount of the negative feedback, and the phase relationships across the diff pair due to group delay associated with the lag compensation networks. Generally, the less the lag compensation, the better the decay characteristics.
Thank you Frank, Eric, Jonathan, Mikek, Christer, and others contributing. This is 1 great thread!
Cheers,
Hugh
After loading Win2K Pro, negotiating the torturous upgrade path, finding and loading the bloody drivers, working through the motherboard freeze, the interminable reconstructions, I finally have a !@#$ PC again. 😡
I have read all the posts of the last three days with rapt interest. Some wonderful, useful responses, thank you, I learn a lot. 😉
To defuse Mikek's comment about ladies of the night (and day??), I would say that he may have been speaking on purely sociological grounds, and I agree categorically.
His comments may not be from personal experience, but hey, who cares??? What business is it of ours anyway? All I can say is that as a young man I never met enough of them. In fact, unwittingly perhaps, I never met ONE of them. Arguably to my regret.....life is not a dress rehearsal.On negative feedback, was it not Matti Otala who showed mathematically that a global feedback node serves as a a mixing point, triggering the creation of intermodulation artefacts? And that the more this feedback, then the greater the diminution of artefacts, but the more they skewed towards the higher orders, to which our ears are preternaturally sensitive?
Thus, given the intermodulation phenomena at the FB node of a global NFB amplifier of any kind, would it not be reasonable to suppose that issues like decay would also be affected? (this is quite a mental leap, I admit).
I have indeed found this to be so. Decay of percussive notes, particularly hihats, small drums, and triangles, is intimately related both to the amount of the negative feedback, and the phase relationships across the diff pair due to group delay associated with the lag compensation networks. Generally, the less the lag compensation, the better the decay characteristics.
Thank you Frank, Eric, Jonathan, Mikek, Christer, and others contributing. This is 1 great thread!
Cheers,
Hugh
Decaying Thread ?
Congratulations on getting your new OS to work - 98SE works fine enough for me - why did you go to the trouble, and what are the benefits ?.
Anyway, yes I agree entirely, and in my experience some amplifiers do this kind of decay fine, and others just wreck it.
In my experience of low or zero FB amplifiers, decays are portrayed rather better, and guassian response sounds best (more natural).
Nice combined room/speaker/amplifier attack and decay is of course the Holy Grail here.
I have found that adding Z compensation networks across all individual drivers quite dramatically cures this problem - IOW a high FB amplifier driving speakers that appear resistive goes a long way to reducing the NFB caused looping, and should be done to all speaker drivers really.
Also this envelope decay behaviour is one that is very definately not revealed by sinewave THD testing, and is a major difference in the percieved sonics of otherwise equally measured amplifiers.
One has to be alert to listening for this characteristic when reviewing amplifiers (and speakers etc...), and this is a major (to my ears) difference that seperates a good amp from a less good one.
To clearly hear and differentiate amplifier attack and decay characteristics in amplifier/speaker combinations, one needs to know and understand and then mentally negate the room decay characteristics, and this is in my opinion a MAJOR flaw in BL Tests as they are commonly conducted.
IOW if you have not had time enougH to learn the room behaviour, then you are not able to reliably discern the decay characteristics that are attributable to the room, and those that are attributable to the amplifier under test.
It can be pretty much taken for granted nowadays that modern amplifiers will have full FR, and Low THD figures (0.01%), but to my ear dynamic under load behaviour (load dependance = amplifier/speaker/room decay behaviour) is the key element to long term listening enjoyment.
To my ear an amplifier that decays under real loads un-naturally (or un-musically) is not worth having.
There are comments on Gainclones acting rather differently according to the power supply capacitance used - Peter can you elaborate on your finding here ? - thanks.
Eric.
Hi Hugh, thankyou for your compliments and good to have you around (fellow aussie).
Congratulations on getting your new OS to work - 98SE works fine enough for me - why did you go to the trouble, and what are the benefits ?.
Anyway, yes I agree entirely, and in my experience some amplifiers do this kind of decay fine, and others just wreck it.
In my experience of low or zero FB amplifiers, decays are portrayed rather better, and guassian response sounds best (more natural).
Nice combined room/speaker/amplifier attack and decay is of course the Holy Grail here.
I have found that adding Z compensation networks across all individual drivers quite dramatically cures this problem - IOW a high FB amplifier driving speakers that appear resistive goes a long way to reducing the NFB caused looping, and should be done to all speaker drivers really.
Also this envelope decay behaviour is one that is very definately not revealed by sinewave THD testing, and is a major difference in the percieved sonics of otherwise equally measured amplifiers.
One has to be alert to listening for this characteristic when reviewing amplifiers (and speakers etc...), and this is a major (to my ears) difference that seperates a good amp from a less good one.
To clearly hear and differentiate amplifier attack and decay characteristics in amplifier/speaker combinations, one needs to know and understand and then mentally negate the room decay characteristics, and this is in my opinion a MAJOR flaw in BL Tests as they are commonly conducted.
IOW if you have not had time enougH to learn the room behaviour, then you are not able to reliably discern the decay characteristics that are attributable to the room, and those that are attributable to the amplifier under test.
It can be pretty much taken for granted nowadays that modern amplifiers will have full FR, and Low THD figures (0.01%), but to my ear dynamic under load behaviour (load dependance = amplifier/speaker/room decay behaviour) is the key element to long term listening enjoyment.
To my ear an amplifier that decays under real loads un-naturally (or un-musically) is not worth having.
There are comments on Gainclones acting rather differently according to the power supply capacitance used - Peter can you elaborate on your finding here ? - thanks.
Eric.
AKSA said:
Actually, Otala was succesfull only in failing to demostrate any such link...higher mathematics notwithstanding......see P.Baxandall..'distortion in power amplifiers', series 1-9...running from 1978-1979, in Wireless World.
🙂
Re: Decaying Thread ?
Eric,
I´m so glad that those of you that have a better hand with words than me can write such good and accurate post as the one above.
Can only say that my findings are exactly the same as yours and I agree 100% 🙂
/Peter
mrfeedback said:
Eric,
I´m so glad that those of you that have a better hand with words than me can write such good and accurate post as the one above.
Can only say that my findings are exactly the same as yours and I agree 100% 🙂
/Peter
Eric, Pan,
Thank you for your posts. Eric, you raise a fundamental issue which actually highlights two significant issues; Bode-Nyquist criteria (otherwise known as stability, or phase margin) and feedback factor.
Consider the emitter follower. I will confine comments to the double emitter follower operating into a (nominal) 8R load and driven by a high impedance voltage amplifier, with typically high impedance loading via a CCS.
Feedback factor is given by the ratio of open to closed loop gain (OLG to CLG). We know closed loop gain is fixed by the resistive AC divider at the feedback node; this means that any variation in feedback factor with loading, frequency or amplitude must be related solely to variations in OLG. We can safely assume that all three will have an effect on OLG.
Firstly, consider the voltage amplifier load. If we posit that its CCS loading is very high, high enough at least, then the loading will be strongly influenced by the devices it is driving, the double emitter follower. A double emitter follower is complex, because we have a crossover disjunction at the zero crossing point, which will likely discombobulate the loading. Thus, any impedance change at the speaker has implications for the OLG. If the impedance rises steadily as it does with uncompensated electrodynamic speakers, then the OLG increases with it since the loading on the VAS diminishes. That is, the feedback factor increases, with attendant effect on the sonics. But there's more.........
Impedance is a vector, comprising a relationship between current and voltage, and thus implying a phase shift between them. As it rises, so does phase shift, and this has draconian effect. Any phase shift will subtract from the 180 degree phase inversion of the feedback circuit, steadily diminishing it, and slowly turning the negative to positive feedback. This is the reason audio amplifier design focusses mercilessly on lag compensation. Messrs Bode/Nyquist tell us that at some frequency, the pole, where the feedback turns to positive, the amp begins to oscillate.
IF THE LOAD IMPEDANCE IS NOT CORRECTED WITH RISING FREQUENCY, THE POLE WILL FALL OUTSIDE THE DESIGN SPEC AND THE AMP MAY OSCILLATE. This oscillation may not be permanent, but short term; however, during this critical period the feedback network loses control over the amplifier and consequently the short term transient oscillations rob the amp of resolution, producing 'fuzziness', and overheating the output devices. This often leads to destruction, since cross conduction sets in and the amp beats its metaphoric brains against its power supply.
That said, the common lore amongst the active crowd is always to cleanly couple their speakers direct, with no bothersome passive components to influence the sound. I propose that this thinking is in error for amps with global negative feedback, and that all drivers, regardless of frequency band should be impedance corrected so that both OLG and phase shift is controlled across the entire frequency range up to and including the pole frequency, typically 500KHz.
I would be interested in analysis of this argument. Like most of my stuff, it is a belief born of experience, not from math analysis, which is not my forte.
Cheers,
Hugh
Thank you for your posts. Eric, you raise a fundamental issue which actually highlights two significant issues; Bode-Nyquist criteria (otherwise known as stability, or phase margin) and feedback factor.
Consider the emitter follower. I will confine comments to the double emitter follower operating into a (nominal) 8R load and driven by a high impedance voltage amplifier, with typically high impedance loading via a CCS.
Feedback factor is given by the ratio of open to closed loop gain (OLG to CLG). We know closed loop gain is fixed by the resistive AC divider at the feedback node; this means that any variation in feedback factor with loading, frequency or amplitude must be related solely to variations in OLG. We can safely assume that all three will have an effect on OLG.
Firstly, consider the voltage amplifier load. If we posit that its CCS loading is very high, high enough at least, then the loading will be strongly influenced by the devices it is driving, the double emitter follower. A double emitter follower is complex, because we have a crossover disjunction at the zero crossing point, which will likely discombobulate the loading. Thus, any impedance change at the speaker has implications for the OLG. If the impedance rises steadily as it does with uncompensated electrodynamic speakers, then the OLG increases with it since the loading on the VAS diminishes. That is, the feedback factor increases, with attendant effect on the sonics. But there's more.........
Impedance is a vector, comprising a relationship between current and voltage, and thus implying a phase shift between them. As it rises, so does phase shift, and this has draconian effect. Any phase shift will subtract from the 180 degree phase inversion of the feedback circuit, steadily diminishing it, and slowly turning the negative to positive feedback. This is the reason audio amplifier design focusses mercilessly on lag compensation. Messrs Bode/Nyquist tell us that at some frequency, the pole, where the feedback turns to positive, the amp begins to oscillate.
IF THE LOAD IMPEDANCE IS NOT CORRECTED WITH RISING FREQUENCY, THE POLE WILL FALL OUTSIDE THE DESIGN SPEC AND THE AMP MAY OSCILLATE. This oscillation may not be permanent, but short term; however, during this critical period the feedback network loses control over the amplifier and consequently the short term transient oscillations rob the amp of resolution, producing 'fuzziness', and overheating the output devices. This often leads to destruction, since cross conduction sets in and the amp beats its metaphoric brains against its power supply.
That said, the common lore amongst the active crowd is always to cleanly couple their speakers direct, with no bothersome passive components to influence the sound. I propose that this thinking is in error for amps with global negative feedback, and that all drivers, regardless of frequency band should be impedance corrected so that both OLG and phase shift is controlled across the entire frequency range up to and including the pole frequency, typically 500KHz.
I would be interested in analysis of this argument. Like most of my stuff, it is a belief born of experience, not from math analysis, which is not my forte.
Cheers,
Hugh
Eric,
You aksed about Win2K Pro. I had been running ME. Machine is a PIII of 600MHz with 133 MHz bus and 256M of RAM.
At the risk of thread jacking, here are the advantages:
1. Far superior printing speed with Office.
2. Far superior printing accuracy; no letters run together now.
3. Much quicker to boot up.
4. Much better at multitasking.
5. Lightning fast on email despatch and receipt.
6. No instabilities on Outlook Express with multiple open windows.
The downside is that any 16 bit programs, such as my PCB software, run like dogs, and after printing a Protel layout, the whole OS freezes up and has to be rebooted. I haven't tried a DOS program yet; I imagine it too would be woeful.
I should add that it downloaded more than 100Mbytes of patches - SP1,2,3 (all in one) - and until then not even Explorer would work properly.
I really can't wait until SuSe is at about Version 10, then I'll swap to Unix. I'm fed up with MS OSs.
Cheers,
Hugh
You aksed about Win2K Pro. I had been running ME. Machine is a PIII of 600MHz with 133 MHz bus and 256M of RAM.
At the risk of thread jacking, here are the advantages:
1. Far superior printing speed with Office.
2. Far superior printing accuracy; no letters run together now.
3. Much quicker to boot up.
4. Much better at multitasking.
5. Lightning fast on email despatch and receipt.
6. No instabilities on Outlook Express with multiple open windows.
The downside is that any 16 bit programs, such as my PCB software, run like dogs, and after printing a Protel layout, the whole OS freezes up and has to be rebooted. I haven't tried a DOS program yet; I imagine it too would be woeful.
I should add that it downloaded more than 100Mbytes of patches - SP1,2,3 (all in one) - and until then not even Explorer would work properly.
I really can't wait until SuSe is at about Version 10, then I'll swap to Unix. I'm fed up with MS OSs.
Cheers,
Hugh
Re: Decaying Thread ?
My Gainclone amps use 1000u/50V BG caps per rail and the pins are connected directly to the caps leads http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=136681#post136681
I was trying to add additional 1000u caps in separate PS as well as 10,000 Jensen caps and I have to admit that it actually degraded the sonics. The amp sounded non involving and average with loosing spaciousness and musicality. However adding 4.7 N caps improved things even further. Recently I ordered some 1000u/50V BG type N caps (which regularly are almost $80 a pc.) and will see how they perform.
mrfeedback said:
My Gainclone amps use 1000u/50V BG caps per rail and the pins are connected directly to the caps leads http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=136681#post136681
I was trying to add additional 1000u caps in separate PS as well as 10,000 Jensen caps and I have to admit that it actually degraded the sonics. The amp sounded non involving and average with loosing spaciousness and musicality. However adding 4.7 N caps improved things even further. Recently I ordered some 1000u/50V BG type N caps (which regularly are almost $80 a pc.) and will see how they perform.
IMPRESSIVE.
Hi,
Hugh,
What can I say?
You worded it perfectly and your experience is in absolute concordance with my own although in my case it is related to tube amps rather than solid state gear.
Not that this should matter, just mentioning this for completeness' sake.
Great post, congrats.🙂
Cheers,😉
Hi,
Hugh,
What can I say?
You worded it perfectly and your experience is in absolute concordance with my own although in my case it is related to tube amps rather than solid state gear.
Not that this should matter, just mentioning this for completeness' sake.
Great post, congrats.🙂
Cheers,😉
mrfeedback said:
If such is observed in the feedback summing point, it is probably due to the layout problems identified by Mr. Carr:
jcarr said:
A Change Is As Good As A Holiday ?.
Hi Hugh, I am running an AMD P-200 equivalent with 256Meg and 98SE.
For some reason it gets bogged down and is slow to do some operations sometimes, elsewise it it mostly behaves itself and is quite trouble free, so I continue to use it.
I figure if it works (mostly) then that is good enough for now.
How badly slow are the 16 bit programs ?.
I run mostly 9x software, and it mostly works ok on this old dirt box.
Sooner or later I will get a modern microwave frequency box, mostly so that I can do some serious multi-track recording and audio editing, but until then this old thing will do.
Faster 🙄 boot up sounds good to me though.
Eric.
Hi Hugh, I am running an AMD P-200 equivalent with 256Meg and 98SE.
For some reason it gets bogged down and is slow to do some operations sometimes, elsewise it it mostly behaves itself and is quite trouble free, so I continue to use it.
I figure if it works (mostly) then that is good enough for now.
How badly slow are the 16 bit programs ?.
I run mostly 9x software, and it mostly works ok on this old dirt box.
Sooner or later I will get a modern microwave frequency box, mostly so that I can do some serious multi-track recording and audio editing, but until then this old thing will do.
Faster 🙄 boot up sounds good to me though.
Eric.
Car Radio??
SY,
You may have good sound on your car.
But please don't call that hi-fi.
I have good sound on my car too, with an amp I made (two bridged TDA1554s), but I don't make confusions with hi-fi.
The Hi-Fi word has been banalized in the last 20 years.
Suddenly, in the beginning of the 80's, any crappy midi had the word hi-fi stamped on it.
The term hifi until the 70's is not the same as it is today.
They had to create a new word: high end.
Do you have quality mini monitor speakers on your car?
Or do you have your speakers on the door pannels?
See?
It's not like listening to music at home.
In fact, I think that to be precise and have a reliable result, a blind test should be done in your room.
You know the sound of your system in your room.
Have someone change a component, and blinded you can detect it.
Or not?
SY,
You may have good sound on your car.
But please don't call that hi-fi.
I have good sound on my car too, with an amp I made (two bridged TDA1554s), but I don't make confusions with hi-fi.
The Hi-Fi word has been banalized in the last 20 years.
Suddenly, in the beginning of the 80's, any crappy midi had the word hi-fi stamped on it.
The term hifi until the 70's is not the same as it is today.
They had to create a new word: high end.
Do you have quality mini monitor speakers on your car?
Or do you have your speakers on the door pannels?
See?
It's not like listening to music at home.
In fact, I think that to be precise and have a reliable result, a blind test should be done in your room.
You know the sound of your system in your room.
Have someone change a component, and blinded you can detect it.
Or not?
Class B Does Not Mean Bad....
Hugh,
Hi again, and surely you are not the only one here in that boat, and that really does not matter - the maths is usually very much full of approximations and consequent assumptions, and whilst describing the overview does not always deal in the finest details, and it is these finest details that make the difference in the 'heard' sound.
So, anyway you give a very good summation of the problems inherent in many amplifier designs - i said things that Peter wanted to say, and you say things that I wanted to say ....
This sort of random transient short term bursting instability thing (music related) happens a lot in mass produced amplifiers (the situation is improving), more particularly into and out of overload, and is what cooks ears and speaker drivers, and annoys the neighbours.
An amplifier that intermittently rings, and excites a power supply stage that rings too, just sets up a big cow-pat fight, and everybody loses, and the results are audible.
Seaker cables (and interconnects also !) are a fairly big variable too that changes the whole playing field, so therefore expect speaker cables to cause electrically differing behaviors that are audible in the in-room sound - that is just elementary to me !. 🙄
I have gone to the trouble in the past to make an 8" 2 way measure (except for bass impedence hump) 6 ohms flat out to past 45 kHz, and I say that this paid fantastic dividends for the money spent on resistors and capacitors.
I would say that AUS$50 spent on the two cabinets gave rather better results than any AUS$50 spent on amplifiers or cables.
These speakers (Yamaha NS-20) were wired with the woofer full range, and the tweeter bled in on 1.111 uF , and both woofer and tweeter impedence compensated.
Such woofers typically sound rough when uncompensated, but when compensated sounded clean extended and musical out to pushing 10 kHz or so - the tweeters filled the highs very nicely and only where needed.
These loudspeakerss powered by a 150+150/8 rack mount semi-pro amp and super modified CDP shook the block of six units, and lifted the carpet, but never any neighbourly complaints.
This setup gave really extraordinary efficiency, and this is to be expected according to theory.
The other benefit (or bane) was that these loudspeakers gave THE BEST depth imaging that I have ever heard, but Absoloute Polarity was PERFECTLY aparrent, and just about every second track needed to be inverted at the speaker terminals.
When playing tracks in correct polarity, holographic and surround sounds were perfectly evident from stereo recordings, and had friends looking for surround cabinets beside the couch !.
In my experience, presenting an amplifier with a resistive load allows it to perform towards it's published specs, and cures a helluvalot of typical sonics problems in one easy and relatively economical sweep.
High quality modern amplifiers are by evoloution becoming less load and power supply dependant, but impedence compensation still cures ills that cannot be cured in any other way, and sort of need to be standard equipment, but mass production and retail considerations of course preclude this - most owners would be shocked at the lack of componentry in many reasonably highly regarded loudspeakers, and further shocked by the improvements that can be made by impedence EQ'ing typical loudspeakers.
The concept of 'synergism' is based in having a reactive system that acording to the amplifier, the speaker cable, the loudspeakers and the room sets up musically satisfying, musically related ringing conditions, and indeed this is a process of tuning, and is what gives rise to tweaks.
The other aproach is to use non load dependant amplifiers, but these usually need to be class-a, and the inherent in-efficiencies are a major constraint in my outlook.
Eric.
Hugh,
Hi again, and surely you are not the only one here in that boat, and that really does not matter - the maths is usually very much full of approximations and consequent assumptions, and whilst describing the overview does not always deal in the finest details, and it is these finest details that make the difference in the 'heard' sound.
So, anyway you give a very good summation of the problems inherent in many amplifier designs - i said things that Peter wanted to say, and you say things that I wanted to say ....
Errrr, yup and this is called 'Load dependence', and can be bigtime, and many listeners do not understand the effects and the importance of this parameter.
What, more steak knives ?. 😀
Errrr, yup I agree on this one too.
This sort of random transient short term bursting instability thing (music related) happens a lot in mass produced amplifiers (the situation is improving), more particularly into and out of overload, and is what cooks ears and speaker drivers, and annoys the neighbours.
An amplifier that intermittently rings, and excites a power supply stage that rings too, just sets up a big cow-pat fight, and everybody loses, and the results are audible.
Seaker cables (and interconnects also !) are a fairly big variable too that changes the whole playing field, so therefore expect speaker cables to cause electrically differing behaviors that are audible in the in-room sound - that is just elementary to me !. 🙄
Errrr, yup again.
I have gone to the trouble in the past to make an 8" 2 way measure (except for bass impedence hump) 6 ohms flat out to past 45 kHz, and I say that this paid fantastic dividends for the money spent on resistors and capacitors.
I would say that AUS$50 spent on the two cabinets gave rather better results than any AUS$50 spent on amplifiers or cables.
These speakers (Yamaha NS-20) were wired with the woofer full range, and the tweeter bled in on 1.111 uF , and both woofer and tweeter impedence compensated.
Such woofers typically sound rough when uncompensated, but when compensated sounded clean extended and musical out to pushing 10 kHz or so - the tweeters filled the highs very nicely and only where needed.
These loudspeakerss powered by a 150+150/8 rack mount semi-pro amp and super modified CDP shook the block of six units, and lifted the carpet, but never any neighbourly complaints.
This setup gave really extraordinary efficiency, and this is to be expected according to theory.
The other benefit (or bane) was that these loudspeakers gave THE BEST depth imaging that I have ever heard, but Absoloute Polarity was PERFECTLY aparrent, and just about every second track needed to be inverted at the speaker terminals.
When playing tracks in correct polarity, holographic and surround sounds were perfectly evident from stereo recordings, and had friends looking for surround cabinets beside the couch !.
In my experience, presenting an amplifier with a resistive load allows it to perform towards it's published specs, and cures a helluvalot of typical sonics problems in one easy and relatively economical sweep.
High quality modern amplifiers are by evoloution becoming less load and power supply dependant, but impedence compensation still cures ills that cannot be cured in any other way, and sort of need to be standard equipment, but mass production and retail considerations of course preclude this - most owners would be shocked at the lack of componentry in many reasonably highly regarded loudspeakers, and further shocked by the improvements that can be made by impedence EQ'ing typical loudspeakers.
The concept of 'synergism' is based in having a reactive system that acording to the amplifier, the speaker cable, the loudspeakers and the room sets up musically satisfying, musically related ringing conditions, and indeed this is a process of tuning, and is what gives rise to tweaks.
The other aproach is to use non load dependant amplifiers, but these usually need to be class-a, and the inherent in-efficiencies are a major constraint in my outlook.
Eric.
Anyway, where's nw?!
He simply disappeared from this thread, have you noticed?
Vacancies?
Blind tests?
Making better switchers for the blind tests?
Searching for better speakers to make decent blind tests?
Listening sessions again with the Onkyo AV amp and the Bryston amp to decide wich one to sell?
Burning-in tests and listening sessions?🙄
Changed oppinion and doesn't want to admit?
nw, pleeeease, say something!
He simply disappeared from this thread, have you noticed?
Vacancies?
Blind tests?
Making better switchers for the blind tests?
Searching for better speakers to make decent blind tests?
Listening sessions again with the Onkyo AV amp and the Bryston amp to decide wich one to sell?
Burning-in tests and listening sessions?🙄
Changed oppinion and doesn't want to admit?
nw, pleeeease, say something!
Gain Clone Madness ?
Hi Pete, please see my above post.
Are you sure that you are not confusing lack of added false detail with "sounded non involving and average with loosing spaciousness and musicality."
I have heard the comments here on the forum praising GC sonics, and elsewhere I have heard comments that they are "****-house" !.
I mostly understand this to be a comment on their overload behaviour, and I expect them to be quite ok on an impedence compensated simple loudspeaker, but getting messy on a more complex load.
Power supply capability and characteristics, and consequent load dependance would very likely strongly affect such a circuit, and I feel this is much of the basis of your appraisals.
In my books a totally non resonant amplifier/loudspeaker system is the most detailed and correct, but may not always be musically enthralling, but a resonant system that is tuned so as to be musical, although transiently distorted can be all the more exciting, especially in a more typical domestic situation, and indeed the typical Jap modern shelf system satisfies this quite well, for most users.
Rememer the NAD 3020 ? - they sounded great with typical English reactive small speakers, but when judged against more capable modern amplifiers just don't quite cut it anymore.
There is muscicality, and then there is precision, and they can be two different beasts, and the two are not mutually excusive.
Eric.
Hi Pete, please see my above post.
Are you sure that you are not confusing lack of added false detail with "sounded non involving and average with loosing spaciousness and musicality."
I have heard the comments here on the forum praising GC sonics, and elsewhere I have heard comments that they are "****-house" !.
I mostly understand this to be a comment on their overload behaviour, and I expect them to be quite ok on an impedence compensated simple loudspeaker, but getting messy on a more complex load.
Power supply capability and characteristics, and consequent load dependance would very likely strongly affect such a circuit, and I feel this is much of the basis of your appraisals.
In my books a totally non resonant amplifier/loudspeaker system is the most detailed and correct, but may not always be musically enthralling, but a resonant system that is tuned so as to be musical, although transiently distorted can be all the more exciting, especially in a more typical domestic situation, and indeed the typical Jap modern shelf system satisfies this quite well, for most users.
Rememer the NAD 3020 ? - they sounded great with typical English reactive small speakers, but when judged against more capable modern amplifiers just don't quite cut it anymore.
There is muscicality, and then there is precision, and they can be two different beasts, and the two are not mutually excusive.
Eric.
he Is Conspicuously Absent !.
Eric / - Us old guys have been doing this for much longer than you younger guys.
LOL, I thing he is too embarrased to say.
Eric / - Us old guys have been doing this for much longer than you younger guys.
Carlos, no I don't, it's a bog-standard car radio. My point was that the urge to move, to dance, to sway is not a function of the sound system, it's a function of skilled musicians playing good music.
Unless, of course, you're so bogged down in trying to hear your stereo that you forget the music; that's a neurosis for which I have no sympathy.
Unless, of course, you're so bogged down in trying to hear your stereo that you forget the music; that's a neurosis for which I have no sympathy.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.