On the other hand, even Amir from ASR admits that his speaker measurements only correlate about 80% to perceived sound (can't find those posts now) and often says that distortion is relative
Edit: Found the post
Edit: Found the post
I also tried a crossover variation using the technique Joe Rassmussen employs in the Elsinore, a very low order blend, steepening up an octave below the crossover point with tweeter inverted so that as the tweeters impulse rises back up it meets the woofer. The M74P's twin resonant peaks might make this difficult in real life, or maybe not. I am interested in testing differences in vertical directivity in the next few designs I make. The six pack image also has the Horizontal ERDI, to show that it is the vertical response that causes the DI to vary.
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Did you ever do a good comparison? So you don't know which speaker is playing (at least as good as possible - we are pretty good at hearing horizontal differences)?
This is also what I hear with hard dome tweeters. And some overdo this in my opinion.
Hi @fluid , it's been a while since you have the M74P. I would like to hear you opinion on this mid driver as compare to the other version of the M74 series. I am currently using the Satori Textreme MW16TX woofer with the TW29TX tweeter, personally I find this combination sounds a bit too clean and clear to my liking, hoping to find a mid driver that can sound more "organic". I am hoping one of the M74 series can help with that.
I don't yet have an opinion on the M74P and I have never heard or used the other versions so I doubt that I will ever be in a position to help decide between them based on personal experience. I do have a pair of T25B on their way to me now. Ever so slowly moving towards making an actual speaker with them 🙂
Maybe but I will have to build a box for the ones I already have first. Given my glacial pace for audio projects it would be unfair to have someone send me something to sit on a shelf for a long time.
i have listened a pair of ATC SCM100 yesterday and really like the medium and tweeters sounds , the bass was too shy face to them. how would you rate the Bliesma MP74 S vs the ATC 75 as for a silk version the ATC dome doesn't sound soft at all ..
The M74S doesn't sound "soft"! There are a lot of details still with this midrange!
I had the direct half blind comparison to M74A, both corrected to 0,5dB and in their dedicated frequency range. The difference is not like night and day, with some songs you barely notice it. But over all the S version is more "friendly" and takes the edge from the source material. Good when you want to just listen to music. The A version is very honest and this gives a feeling of "truth" and a very natural reproduction. I have the feeling I can "trust" what I hear and that's important in an professoinal environment.
(be aware - I don't listen to these drivers in fullrange cause that makes no sense. When doing so you will come to totally different conclusions!)
The membrane of the S is really thin and light and not too stable - it's designed for a sound goal. ATC dome is more rigid. But the suspension probably has more losses? I would GUESS it will sit in between soundwise but also could be similar to the S.
I will try and do a comparison of the M74B and A in the next 2-3 weeks - when somebody sends me a M74P ...
I had the direct half blind comparison to M74A, both corrected to 0,5dB and in their dedicated frequency range. The difference is not like night and day, with some songs you barely notice it. But over all the S version is more "friendly" and takes the edge from the source material. Good when you want to just listen to music. The A version is very honest and this gives a feeling of "truth" and a very natural reproduction. I have the feeling I can "trust" what I hear and that's important in an professoinal environment.
(be aware - I don't listen to these drivers in fullrange cause that makes no sense. When doing so you will come to totally different conclusions!)
The membrane of the S is really thin and light and not too stable - it's designed for a sound goal. ATC dome is more rigid. But the suspension probably has more losses? I would GUESS it will sit in between soundwise but also could be similar to the S.
I will try and do a comparison of the M74B and A in the next 2-3 weeks - when somebody sends me a M74P ...
"half blinb" comparison cause I have the midrange drivers sit next to each other horizontal in my test rig and while I didn't do the switching we can identify pretty small vertical offsets with our ears. So you know if the right or left midrange is on after switching.
Really looking forward to testing these drivers! When it meets expectations this will be my new "goto" midrange.
Whenever you get to measure it, so you mind taking diagonal polars?
ie. Horizontal polars 0-90, then rotate driver 45 degrees, and take horizontal polars again.
It would be interesting to see the anisotropic behaviour of weaves like Textreme.
I can contribute and measure anisotropic behaviour of Kevlar and fibreglass based weaves.
Reference:
https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/_migrated/content_uploads/KLIPPEL_Cone_Vibration_Poster_01.pdf
ie. Horizontal polars 0-90, then rotate driver 45 degrees, and take horizontal polars again.
It would be interesting to see the anisotropic behaviour of weaves like Textreme.
I can contribute and measure anisotropic behaviour of Kevlar and fibreglass based weaves.
Reference:
https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/_migrated/content_uploads/KLIPPEL_Cone_Vibration_Poster_01.pdf
TL;DR: it’s probably not measurable by spinorama techniques, which is by design. One of the advantages of flat tow composites is that the engineers can push the nasty frequencies much, much higher, typically higher than we can hear.
Long version: I suspect “macroscopic” measurements wouldn’t be able to resolve anisotropic effects of flat tow composites. The modal analysis of Textreme diaphragms typically show the node spacing to be on the order of the unidirectional tape widths, which can range from 6.35 mm (0.25 in) to over 50 mm. Typically, you would aim for using wider tapes in order to minimize the number of tape edges, where the composite would be weaker, but narrower widths to have more degrees of freedom to control the mode shapes and frequencies. It looks like Satori is using 25-30 mm tapes, and if the same is true for this driver, there would be roughly ~3-ish +/- 1,000,000 nodes across the width of a 74 mm dome, meaning the modal frequencies are potentially/likely/roughly/handwavingly (apologies, I can’t to Fourier analysis in my head) much, much higher than the pistonic resonance frequency, ~12.5-13kHz, and the corresponding interactions between the primary signal and modal resonances are on the order of sub-millimeter wavelengths, which is why they use optical methods (e.g., sharks with freakin’ lasers) to make measurements.
Sorry for the run on sentence.
Long version: I suspect “macroscopic” measurements wouldn’t be able to resolve anisotropic effects of flat tow composites. The modal analysis of Textreme diaphragms typically show the node spacing to be on the order of the unidirectional tape widths, which can range from 6.35 mm (0.25 in) to over 50 mm. Typically, you would aim for using wider tapes in order to minimize the number of tape edges, where the composite would be weaker, but narrower widths to have more degrees of freedom to control the mode shapes and frequencies. It looks like Satori is using 25-30 mm tapes, and if the same is true for this driver, there would be roughly ~3-ish +/- 1,000,000 nodes across the width of a 74 mm dome, meaning the modal frequencies are potentially/likely/roughly/handwavingly (apologies, I can’t to Fourier analysis in my head) much, much higher than the pistonic resonance frequency, ~12.5-13kHz, and the corresponding interactions between the primary signal and modal resonances are on the order of sub-millimeter wavelengths, which is why they use optical methods (e.g., sharks with freakin’ lasers) to make measurements.
Sorry for the run on sentence.
The biggest challenge I see with the Bliesma 3" domes is the lack of proven or widely adopted designs. It's a significant commitment—building a cabinet, investing a fair bit of money, learning how to design a crossover—all with the risk of ending up with something that just doesn't perform well.
Granted, this isn't unique to Bliesma; most raw drivers come with similar hurdles. But companies like SB Acoustics and Madisound ease that burden with well-documented kits and established designs.
Where Bliesma really shines, though, is in sensitivity. That makes them especially attractive for low-wattage tube amps, where every dB counts. Pairing something like the Bliesma Textreme M74T-6 with a high-sensitivity 8-ohm AE TD12 woofer and a Viawave ribbon could create a very tube-friendly 8-ohm setup.
An ATC SCM100-inspired design would be phenomenal. Modern speakers often demand too much power, and Bliesma helps fill that gap for those of us using more modest amplification. They scratch an itch that many newer designs ignore.
Granted, this isn't unique to Bliesma; most raw drivers come with similar hurdles. But companies like SB Acoustics and Madisound ease that burden with well-documented kits and established designs.
Where Bliesma really shines, though, is in sensitivity. That makes them especially attractive for low-wattage tube amps, where every dB counts. Pairing something like the Bliesma Textreme M74T-6 with a high-sensitivity 8-ohm AE TD12 woofer and a Viawave ribbon could create a very tube-friendly 8-ohm setup.
An ATC SCM100-inspired design would be phenomenal. Modern speakers often demand too much power, and Bliesma helps fill that gap for those of us using more modest amplification. They scratch an itch that many newer designs ignore.
There are many successful designs using a 3 inch dome. Your comment makes no sense. You are not categorizing drivers properly. It's like saying there's no proven designs using V8 engines.... after that's been establish we analyze the performance of said engine and see how it performs in a similar or identical configuration of any other successful iteration. Instead of horsepower and torque we are looking at the impulse response and all the components of, in order to understand the unique signature that the Bliesma 3 inch dome carries. Any high-performance driver used properly will have very little uniqueness to its signature. Mating it with a tweeter and a woofer would require the same analysis of polar performance bandwidth and headroom as any other mid driver of any other design so either you know how to design a loudspeakers or you don't
You want a complete step by step to a specific design where all issues have been absolved and all details provided. Nothing wrong with that other than without it, you seem to be stuck. Even more the reason to learn the basics of design, so you can do what you will, instead of what someone else planned out for you? If thats not in the cards for you, you could always start a project thread, and the people here could hold your hand to a finished production. "The biggest challenge for Beliesma" probably isnt the inclusion of some well known DIY kit. They have a tweeter that has more headroom than all other dynamic tweeters(?) so for many designers the mid is just asking to be used, for uniformity sake. I don't know that the 3" dome is doing anything Volt or Atc has not already, unlike the tweeter.
My response was supposed to inspire conviction to remove the stumbling block and equip yourself with the knowledge to design successfully without a step by step guide for some design thats been "accepted" by the community.
My response was supposed to inspire conviction to remove the stumbling block and equip yourself with the knowledge to design successfully without a step by step guide for some design thats been "accepted" by the community.