Harry:
that looks like an excellent article, I'll read it at length (I'm actually at work now 😀 ). Thank you!
that looks like an excellent article, I'll read it at length (I'm actually at work now 😀 ). Thank you!
Could have fooled me. Did they actually teach you anything useful? I bet not. We'll get you up to speed somehow. Just don't ask me for a refund. I'm still waiting for mine. [joke]
Bernhard, are you reading this? [joke]
Jocko
Re: supply bypass caps, etc.
A few things I found so far (note - some of these may appear to be off topic - read 'em anyways 🙂 ) :
http://www.signalintegrity.com/articles/straight/resonance.htm
http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_byp.htm
http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_dec.htm
http://dbserv.maxim-ic.com/tarticle/view_article.cfm?article_id=883
http://dbserv.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm?appnote_number=637
http://members.tripod.com/richard984/power_supplies.htm
http://www.signalintegrity.com/articles/edn/cleanpower.htm
drats- The one I really wanted I can't find in a 5 minute search... maybe later...
mlloyd1
A few things I found so far (note - some of these may appear to be off topic - read 'em anyways 🙂 ) :
http://www.signalintegrity.com/articles/straight/resonance.htm
http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_byp.htm
http://www.williamson-labs.com/480_dec.htm
http://dbserv.maxim-ic.com/tarticle/view_article.cfm?article_id=883
http://dbserv.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm?appnote_number=637
http://members.tripod.com/richard984/power_supplies.htm
http://www.signalintegrity.com/articles/edn/cleanpower.htm
drats- The one I really wanted I can't find in a 5 minute search... maybe later...
mlloyd1
mlloyd1 said:
Jocko,
I am enjoying my education... where else do you get access to labs full of expensive equipment to play around with?
I would not have gotten interested in this stuff if I skipped college and gone straight to the work force.
While passing the required classes and graduating as an EE doesn't necessarily mean that you will be knowledgable in the field of electronics, it does offer opportunities and facilities for learning to those who are interested.
--
Brian
gte619j@prism.gatech.edu
I am enjoying my education... where else do you get access to labs full of expensive equipment to play around with?
I would not have gotten interested in this stuff if I skipped college and gone straight to the work force.
While passing the required classes and graduating as an EE doesn't necessarily mean that you will be knowledgable in the field of electronics, it does offer opportunities and facilities for learning to those who are interested.
--
Brian
gte619j@prism.gatech.edu
Brian:
Glad you are enjoying your stay there. Someday you will turn 40 and be out of work like the rest of us. Enjoy it while it lasts.
At work, where else? Or buy your own. Never hurt me any.
Jocko
Glad you are enjoying your stay there. Someday you will turn 40 and be out of work like the rest of us. Enjoy it while it lasts.
At work, where else? Or buy your own. Never hurt me any.
Jocko
Belately, I'll add my comments on capacitors and how I used
them in one application, in the versions of Leach's amplifiers
that I built.
I used Black Gates sparingly because of their price; a 16 V 220 uF N (non-polarized) unit went in the feedback loop. Regular Black Gates went into the diff amp supplies. Supposedly they have
a lower dissipation factor and lower noise than any other type of electrolytic. They use graphite in the electrolyte, the manufacturer claims that the carbon conducts more effectively
than the ions in the electrolyte. Your guess is as good as mine.
At any rate, the Black Gates are apparently unique in their use of graphite, but are otherwise typical aluminum electrolytic caps.
They are somewhat popular in high end equipment; I discovered my Rotel RCD970 CD player uses them in the output board. The
larger power supply caps are outrageously expensive and I can't
afford them; the N series are very expensive too. So they went in only where I thought the application was most critical.
Tantalum caps have a highly mixed reputation; I don't care to use them in audio applications until I learn more, or just don't have a
choice.
I was going to use Muse electrolytics in the rest of the circuit, but goofed and found that the units I ordered wouldn't fit on the board in those locations. Cheap no-name stuff went in there until I get around to buying better quality parts that actually fit in the tight space available.
I'd prefer using polystyrene or silver mica for low-picofarad capacitors; clearly there are better brands than others. Mainly the really small polystyrenes are getting nearly impossible to find
and I ended up using generic silver mica units.
In speaker crossovers I have used Solens to replace nonpolarized electrolytics; I chose that brand because of price and availability. Polypropylene caps have a clearly better dissipation factor and diaelectric absorption than mylar and non-polarized electrolytic caps; I can't afford Teflon and doubt that with these speakers ('original' Acoutic Research AR-11) I could hear a difference.
As to how they sound, I can't really say because I haven't done comparisons--in fact, I can't. I'd need to compare modified units against unmodified, which I don't have. I simply chose parts because of their presumed better electrical characteristics and
somewhat because of reputation as being "better". I can't say
that it hurt the sound; the newest version of Leach's amplifier was clearly an improvement and I'm very happy with the sound.
The imaging is much better and the occasional sense of strain and distortion is gone. (Your mileage may vary)
There are many types of resistors too and I chose certain parts because I thought there were good objective reasons to do so,
but I don't think they are as critical. In the future I may use
Mills wirewounds and Dale metal films, or maybe not. A lot will
depend on price and availability.
them in one application, in the versions of Leach's amplifiers
that I built.
I used Black Gates sparingly because of their price; a 16 V 220 uF N (non-polarized) unit went in the feedback loop. Regular Black Gates went into the diff amp supplies. Supposedly they have
a lower dissipation factor and lower noise than any other type of electrolytic. They use graphite in the electrolyte, the manufacturer claims that the carbon conducts more effectively
than the ions in the electrolyte. Your guess is as good as mine.
At any rate, the Black Gates are apparently unique in their use of graphite, but are otherwise typical aluminum electrolytic caps.
They are somewhat popular in high end equipment; I discovered my Rotel RCD970 CD player uses them in the output board. The
larger power supply caps are outrageously expensive and I can't
afford them; the N series are very expensive too. So they went in only where I thought the application was most critical.
Tantalum caps have a highly mixed reputation; I don't care to use them in audio applications until I learn more, or just don't have a
choice.
I was going to use Muse electrolytics in the rest of the circuit, but goofed and found that the units I ordered wouldn't fit on the board in those locations. Cheap no-name stuff went in there until I get around to buying better quality parts that actually fit in the tight space available.
I'd prefer using polystyrene or silver mica for low-picofarad capacitors; clearly there are better brands than others. Mainly the really small polystyrenes are getting nearly impossible to find
and I ended up using generic silver mica units.
In speaker crossovers I have used Solens to replace nonpolarized electrolytics; I chose that brand because of price and availability. Polypropylene caps have a clearly better dissipation factor and diaelectric absorption than mylar and non-polarized electrolytic caps; I can't afford Teflon and doubt that with these speakers ('original' Acoutic Research AR-11) I could hear a difference.
As to how they sound, I can't really say because I haven't done comparisons--in fact, I can't. I'd need to compare modified units against unmodified, which I don't have. I simply chose parts because of their presumed better electrical characteristics and
somewhat because of reputation as being "better". I can't say
that it hurt the sound; the newest version of Leach's amplifier was clearly an improvement and I'm very happy with the sound.
The imaging is much better and the occasional sense of strain and distortion is gone. (Your mileage may vary)
There are many types of resistors too and I chose certain parts because I thought there were good objective reasons to do so,
but I don't think they are as critical. In the future I may use
Mills wirewounds and Dale metal films, or maybe not. A lot will
depend on price and availability.
As the salvos fly overhead...
OK, it seems the question has a few levels if I get it correctly.
1) Is there a particular brand that outdoes everyone else?
2) See Q1 but substitute type for brand.
3) What do folks use?
A few additional chestnuts seem to have floated up including bypassing and leakage.
Let's take these in order...
Like car manufacturers, cap manufacturers make low end caps, mid scale caps and top end caps. You cant' say that all Rubycon (licensed by Jelmax to make Black Gates) caps are great or that all Philips caps are low end.
Elna, Nichicon, Sanyo, Rubycon, Wima, Philips, Vishay, LCR, Siemens and Roederstein all make a wde range of caps some of which are bog standard grade and not ideal for audio uses and some of which (in the right type of circuit and in the right place) can be exceptional. That gives us a definitive No, no-one is best, try it and see answer. Helpful huh?
As to type, I already dove into that a little. Mica and Styrene are supposed to be great but are limited in capacitance. At the opposite end of the scale are elctros, commonly considered to be not real crash hot sounding but with huge capacitance. High voltage electros are not overly common but easy enough to obtain nonetheless. Audio grade (breathed on by albino virgins perhaps?) electros can be outrageously priced and may not be obviously superior in some applications to low ESR, low leakage normal electros. General opinion seems to be that low ESR, low leakage and low resonance all contribute to better sound.
I covered film and foils in a previous post. Interestingly, one of the older hifi world articles on tweaking highly rated some multilayer ceramic caps (AVX brand 10uF, 50v SK series). I have used these and agree that they are up there with a few of the scary priced film caps so go figure?
Who uses what? How much space have you got, how confused do you want to get, do you trust the measurements to tell you everything and do you trust everyone elses ears as much as you trust your own? Are your tastes for good sound the same as mine? Does "natural" = "smooth" or "detailed" or "fast" or "relaxing" or "exciting" or "great bass"?
Do you want dark or sweet or silky or...
If I've discovered one thing in the years I've been playing around the edge of this game (a little diy here and there) it's that there are hundreds of opinions about what makes a good cct.
Silver wire, copper wire, stranded, solid core, pvc insulated, polyprop insulated, teflon insulated, valve, solidstate, SE, PP, UL, NFB, UL, SRPP, carbon, metal film, BJT, MOSFET, tube rectified, film PSU caps, choke input PSU...
You won't get a straight answer, what you can try to do is find out who's opinions you often agree with, ask their advice, test it and then tweak a little further till you find what pleases you.
BTW, there's controversy on bypassing caps too. Some folks claim that the advantages of low ESR up high in the freq range are outweighed by the detrimental effect of differing time constants causing smear (I think this may be more of a problem in the case of coupling caps than it is in PSU caps)
Leakage is a real problem if you are coupling and things likely to pass DC can really F things up big time. If it's critical, try to play on the safe side unless you're willing to let the smoke out now and then and pay for the replacement parts.
Drew
Now back to taking that hill... Can we have a litte air support?
OK, it seems the question has a few levels if I get it correctly.
1) Is there a particular brand that outdoes everyone else?
2) See Q1 but substitute type for brand.
3) What do folks use?
A few additional chestnuts seem to have floated up including bypassing and leakage.
Let's take these in order...
Like car manufacturers, cap manufacturers make low end caps, mid scale caps and top end caps. You cant' say that all Rubycon (licensed by Jelmax to make Black Gates) caps are great or that all Philips caps are low end.
Elna, Nichicon, Sanyo, Rubycon, Wima, Philips, Vishay, LCR, Siemens and Roederstein all make a wde range of caps some of which are bog standard grade and not ideal for audio uses and some of which (in the right type of circuit and in the right place) can be exceptional. That gives us a definitive No, no-one is best, try it and see answer. Helpful huh?
As to type, I already dove into that a little. Mica and Styrene are supposed to be great but are limited in capacitance. At the opposite end of the scale are elctros, commonly considered to be not real crash hot sounding but with huge capacitance. High voltage electros are not overly common but easy enough to obtain nonetheless. Audio grade (breathed on by albino virgins perhaps?) electros can be outrageously priced and may not be obviously superior in some applications to low ESR, low leakage normal electros. General opinion seems to be that low ESR, low leakage and low resonance all contribute to better sound.
I covered film and foils in a previous post. Interestingly, one of the older hifi world articles on tweaking highly rated some multilayer ceramic caps (AVX brand 10uF, 50v SK series). I have used these and agree that they are up there with a few of the scary priced film caps so go figure?
Who uses what? How much space have you got, how confused do you want to get, do you trust the measurements to tell you everything and do you trust everyone elses ears as much as you trust your own? Are your tastes for good sound the same as mine? Does "natural" = "smooth" or "detailed" or "fast" or "relaxing" or "exciting" or "great bass"?
Do you want dark or sweet or silky or...
If I've discovered one thing in the years I've been playing around the edge of this game (a little diy here and there) it's that there are hundreds of opinions about what makes a good cct.
Silver wire, copper wire, stranded, solid core, pvc insulated, polyprop insulated, teflon insulated, valve, solidstate, SE, PP, UL, NFB, UL, SRPP, carbon, metal film, BJT, MOSFET, tube rectified, film PSU caps, choke input PSU...
You won't get a straight answer, what you can try to do is find out who's opinions you often agree with, ask their advice, test it and then tweak a little further till you find what pleases you.
BTW, there's controversy on bypassing caps too. Some folks claim that the advantages of low ESR up high in the freq range are outweighed by the detrimental effect of differing time constants causing smear (I think this may be more of a problem in the case of coupling caps than it is in PSU caps)
Leakage is a real problem if you are coupling and things likely to pass DC can really F things up big time. If it's critical, try to play on the safe side unless you're willing to let the smoke out now and then and pay for the replacement parts.
Drew
Now back to taking that hill... Can we have a litte air support?
Jocko,
yes, i do. Seems to be a compulsive thing, this education talk 😡 ... 🙂
Should strap you in my poetry appreciations chair for a day or two .... Hmmmhhh .. poetry ? hmmmh ... no, got some really modern jazz for you .... Coltrane's "Om" ... no, too much positive energy, maybe on the 2nd day ... Cecil Taylor .... hmmh yes, reeeallly corrosive 🙂 ... 😀
yes, i do. Seems to be a compulsive thing, this education talk 😡 ... 🙂
Should strap you in my poetry appreciations chair for a day or two .... Hmmmhhh .. poetry ? hmmmh ... no, got some really modern jazz for you .... Coltrane's "Om" ... no, too much positive energy, maybe on the 2nd day ... Cecil Taylor .... hmmh yes, reeeallly corrosive 🙂 ... 😀
Capacitors for poets
Drew, a most insightful post that hits the nail squarely on the head. I wish I had written it! People should spend more time listening to caps and less time talking about them. I have found some great caps in my local surplus store.
Bernhard, I know for a fact that Jocko has a book of Jim Morrison's poetry. What he really loves is Vogon poetry. Ask him...
Drew, a most insightful post that hits the nail squarely on the head. I wish I had written it! People should spend more time listening to caps and less time talking about them. I have found some great caps in my local surplus store.
Bernhard, I know for a fact that Jocko has a book of Jim Morrison's poetry. What he really loves is Vogon poetry. Ask him...
Vogon poetry
I was going to mention that at the risk of using YET ANOTHER inside joke. Hugh knows what we are talking about.
Jocko
I was going to mention that at the risk of using YET ANOTHER inside joke. Hugh knows what we are talking about.
Jocko
The dead swans lay in the stagnent pool.
ARRRGG .. I've chewed my own arm off!
With appologies to Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings.
What's the inside joke? Is this thread worse than that? 😀
ARRRGG .. I've chewed my own arm off!
With appologies to Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings.
What's the inside joke? Is this thread worse than that? 😀
John,
dissappointing, this poem. I thought it would be really bad poetry but its simply nothing, saying nothing. Better, we wouldn't have known it, then we could have continued wondering how bad it must be 🙂
Harry,
you really shouldn't volunteer your friend's saucy secrets 😡 ... 🙂
Jocko,
"hitchhikers guide" is no insider joke. not knowing it really discovers holes in the education 🙂 ..... as i told my father recently when he accused me not to know certain authors, not only that, i later accused him of not fulfilling his educational duty telling me about those authors ROTFLMAO 🙂
dissappointing, this poem. I thought it would be really bad poetry but its simply nothing, saying nothing. Better, we wouldn't have known it, then we could have continued wondering how bad it must be 🙂
Harry,
you really shouldn't volunteer your friend's saucy secrets 😡 ... 🙂
Jocko,
"hitchhikers guide" is no insider joke. not knowing it really discovers holes in the education 🙂 ..... as i told my father recently when he accused me not to know certain authors, not only that, i later accused him of not fulfilling his educational duty telling me about those authors ROTFLMAO 🙂
Drew,
You're such a tease.....
"Interestingly, one of the older hifi world articles on tweaking highly rated some multilayer ceramic caps (AVX brand 10uF, 50v SK series). I have used these and agree that they are up there with a few of the scary priced film caps so go figure? "
So are they those SK multilayer ceramics X7Rs or Z5Us (the COGs don't come in 10mf 50v)? Curious minds want to know.....
Thanks in advance,
Paul
You're such a tease.....
"Interestingly, one of the older hifi world articles on tweaking highly rated some multilayer ceramic caps (AVX brand 10uF, 50v SK series). I have used these and agree that they are up there with a few of the scary priced film caps so go figure? "
So are they those SK multilayer ceramics X7Rs or Z5Us (the COGs don't come in 10mf 50v)? Curious minds want to know.....
Thanks in advance,
Paul
The Ceramic Cap
Tease? Me?
Say that again and
"I will rend you in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon. See if I don't."
And this from someone who's only been kicking around this forum for 6 months!
Farnell Electronics Part No 578-411 to be specific. AVX code SK055E106ZAA. They used to be about $10.00 US
The main point (apart from putting people on to a good cap they mightn't have considered) was that although most folks poo poo ceramics in audio signal paths, even some of these sound quite good so none of this is as black and white (two tone if Ska is more your scene) as it seems.
If I had a definite answer on what standard issuse caps were best for all audio circuits irrespective of type, brand, position and use then I wouldn't be sitting here typing I'd be buying a small country just so I had somewhere to stack all my money.
"Bwaaaaahhhaaaaaahhaaaahhaaaa."
Think I'll go back to snorting lines of MDF dust till my horns are finished.
(Kiddies, don't try this at home, always use a mask. The non-professionals you are watching are untrained DIYers.)
Drew
Tease? Me?
Say that again and
"I will rend you in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon. See if I don't."
And this from someone who's only been kicking around this forum for 6 months!
Farnell Electronics Part No 578-411 to be specific. AVX code SK055E106ZAA. They used to be about $10.00 US
The main point (apart from putting people on to a good cap they mightn't have considered) was that although most folks poo poo ceramics in audio signal paths, even some of these sound quite good so none of this is as black and white (two tone if Ska is more your scene) as it seems.
If I had a definite answer on what standard issuse caps were best for all audio circuits irrespective of type, brand, position and use then I wouldn't be sitting here typing I'd be buying a small country just so I had somewhere to stack all my money.
"Bwaaaaahhhaaaaaahhaaaahhaaaa."
Think I'll go back to snorting lines of MDF dust till my horns are finished.
(Kiddies, don't try this at home, always use a mask. The non-professionals you are watching are untrained DIYers.)
Drew
Harry,
no, certainly not Hermann Hesse. Mörike and Chamisso, to be specific. Although i doubt he ever read Hesse.
DTopic,
did you recover from Grey's mean attack? Reading between the lines in differnt threads i'd guess you collect public flogging quite repeatedly, don't you? You also triggered my lecture on the other thread. Maybe you can hop over to www.audioannex.com for a while and let Jazzie carress you aching back with her spike heels (provided she exists) and get a look and feel of how this sort of handling others can end up in a madhouse.
Jocko,
being familiar with XXX does not mean i particularly enjoy to show everyone else what a club of cool froods we insiders are, but that was not the main issue in my other post in the other thread, it was a small side issue. Main issue was talking others out of their self-confidence and enthusiasm. Do me a favour, re-read it, even if it hurts a bit.
DTopic,
what happened with my Beethoven/E.Kleiber hint, did you try it out? That is a demo for enthususasm !
More uplifting than church. 🙂
no, certainly not Hermann Hesse. Mörike and Chamisso, to be specific. Although i doubt he ever read Hesse.
DTopic,
did you recover from Grey's mean attack? Reading between the lines in differnt threads i'd guess you collect public flogging quite repeatedly, don't you? You also triggered my lecture on the other thread. Maybe you can hop over to www.audioannex.com for a while and let Jazzie carress you aching back with her spike heels (provided she exists) and get a look and feel of how this sort of handling others can end up in a madhouse.
Jocko,
being familiar with XXX does not mean i particularly enjoy to show everyone else what a club of cool froods we insiders are, but that was not the main issue in my other post in the other thread, it was a small side issue. Main issue was talking others out of their self-confidence and enthusiasm. Do me a favour, re-read it, even if it hurts a bit.
DTopic,
what happened with my Beethoven/E.Kleiber hint, did you try it out? That is a demo for enthususasm !
More uplifting than church. 🙂
On capacitors:
One thing that must always be remembered in high end audio is that being objective is not always possible. This is not to say that there are unmeasurable things that effect the sound, only that the measurements that are used do not measure everything. If you look at the measurements that are made and how they are done, there are significant flaws.
The primary "measurement" for amplifiers is total harmonic distortion. Essentially we put a tone into an amplifier and we look for all the energy at the output that is not at that frequency. This has many flaws:
1) It is not an instantaneous measurement in practice. In practice it is measured over 10's, hundreds, thousands of waves.
2) If you added a signal that was at the same frequency, but delayed in time, there would be no increase in harmonic distortion. *** Think di-electric absorption. ***
One thing that must always be remembered in high end audio is that being objective is not always possible. This is not to say that there are unmeasurable things that effect the sound, only that the measurements that are used do not measure everything. If you look at the measurements that are made and how they are done, there are significant flaws.
The primary "measurement" for amplifiers is total harmonic distortion. Essentially we put a tone into an amplifier and we look for all the energy at the output that is not at that frequency. This has many flaws:
1) It is not an instantaneous measurement in practice. In practice it is measured over 10's, hundreds, thousands of waves.
2) If you added a signal that was at the same frequency, but delayed in time, there would be no increase in harmonic distortion. *** Think di-electric absorption. ***
Drew,
"I will rend you in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon. See if I don't."
??????
At first I thought this was some ultra sophiticated banter from a typical Aussie toff. Ya know, one of them, great nations separated by a common language....
Then my wife, the librarian, told me it was probably Potterese.... My kids are too old to have read them. Lordy, you make me feel ooold!
Thanks for the info, the E denotes a Z5U dialectric, great volumetric capacitive density, but **** poor temerature stability. Where, specifically, did you use them?
Looking forward fo more discourse on cabbages and kings.
Regards,
The Slithey Tove, Paul
"I will rend you in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon. See if I don't."
??????
At first I thought this was some ultra sophiticated banter from a typical Aussie toff. Ya know, one of them, great nations separated by a common language....
Then my wife, the librarian, told me it was probably Potterese.... My kids are too old to have read them. Lordy, you make me feel ooold!
Thanks for the info, the E denotes a Z5U dialectric, great volumetric capacitive density, but **** poor temerature stability. Where, specifically, did you use them?
Looking forward fo more discourse on cabbages and kings.
Regards,
The Slithey Tove, Paul
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