I'm beginning work on building a set of these myself. I'm having a hard time finding 2" thick live edge. Though I'm headed out to meet a guy this afternoon to find a walnut live edge slab that fits the bill. If I can't find something close, how much of a difference would it be if I went with a double layer MDF with straight edges instead?
1.5” thick is good enough.
MDF with straight edges will work fine acoustically, but aesthetically it would be a shame to settle for MDF.
There are lots of places that sell (and ship) live edge wood.
MDF with straight edges will work fine acoustically, but aesthetically it would be a shame to settle for MDF.
There are lots of places that sell (and ship) live edge wood.
I agree, if you've got any sources you can suggest I'd be super appreciative. I'd rather not go the MDF route if I can avoid it.
I visited Schroeder Hardwoods today, and they have great inventory and good pricing. Definitely one of the good ones in this area. Picked out a couple walnut slabs (bookmatched), and I have all the parts on hand now. Hope to have some actual progress to share soon.
Perry thank you for your expertise and design of the "Bitches Brew". I have a question for you.
I come from the generation of passive crossover with 2 channel DAC, amp and preamp. My thought is that a MiniDSP Flex 8 DAC\preamp could not sound as good as a good 2 channel setup.
My question is can a MiniDSP Flex 8 active crossover with a an older Marantz 8 channel amp sound better than a good 2 channel passive crossover setup? Never played with an active crossover and appreciate your thoughts an expertise on this question.
Thank you for considering to answer my question.
Greg Edwards
I come from the generation of passive crossover with 2 channel DAC, amp and preamp. My thought is that a MiniDSP Flex 8 DAC\preamp could not sound as good as a good 2 channel setup.
My question is can a MiniDSP Flex 8 active crossover with a an older Marantz 8 channel amp sound better than a good 2 channel passive crossover setup? Never played with an active crossover and appreciate your thoughts an expertise on this question.
Thank you for considering to answer my question.
Greg Edwards
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@Taipan Greg, There is no way way to build Bitches Brew as a 2-channel passive setup without severely compromising the design objectives.
To even attempt it would take very good engineering chops for modeling passive crossovers. I'm not enthusiastic about trying because it would be impossible to achieve correct time and phase alignment, and you would necessarily lose an octave of bass. The EQ would have some other problems that a passive system cannot resolve.
In my opinion even the most carefully optimized passive Bitches Brew won't sound better than the current active design.
As I see it, the only advantage any passive crossover has over active digital [assuming a digital source] is if the DAC of the passive system is better than the DAC in the digital crossover.
Sometimes that is the case. It could be the the Flex8 DAC is not as good as some other very high end DACs.
Now if you want a better digital crossover than the Flex8, I suggest you buy a $4K Danville Signal crossover instead of the Flex8. Please note that the Danville is more sophisticated and harder to configure.
If you're intimidated by Flex8, don't be. Once you familiarize yourself with them, which only takes an hour or two, you'll probably think like I do that active is way easier to work with than passive, easier to change, test, measure and implement.
I do think the Flex8 is very very good. It has extremely low noise and I've been very happy with it. If a Marantz is your preferred amp I think you'll be quite happy with the results.
To even attempt it would take very good engineering chops for modeling passive crossovers. I'm not enthusiastic about trying because it would be impossible to achieve correct time and phase alignment, and you would necessarily lose an octave of bass. The EQ would have some other problems that a passive system cannot resolve.
In my opinion even the most carefully optimized passive Bitches Brew won't sound better than the current active design.
As I see it, the only advantage any passive crossover has over active digital [assuming a digital source] is if the DAC of the passive system is better than the DAC in the digital crossover.
Sometimes that is the case. It could be the the Flex8 DAC is not as good as some other very high end DACs.
Now if you want a better digital crossover than the Flex8, I suggest you buy a $4K Danville Signal crossover instead of the Flex8. Please note that the Danville is more sophisticated and harder to configure.
If you're intimidated by Flex8, don't be. Once you familiarize yourself with them, which only takes an hour or two, you'll probably think like I do that active is way easier to work with than passive, easier to change, test, measure and implement.
I do think the Flex8 is very very good. It has extremely low noise and I've been very happy with it. If a Marantz is your preferred amp I think you'll be quite happy with the results.
Perry thanks so much for the quick and detailed response. I was not wanting you to modifity the crossovers on the”Bitches Brew” but was really interested in your professional opinion on the Flex 8 vs passive crossover. I am super encouraged about trying the Flex 8 after receiving your professional comments. I am curious is there much difference in the sound quality between the Flex 8 vs Danville crossover?
I really want to thank you for sharing the design of the “Bitches Brew” and working with DIYers. IT IS GREATLY APPRECIATED. You are very kind to share your knowledge and help others.
Thanks again for your help and time.
Greg Edwards
I really want to thank you for sharing the design of the “Bitches Brew” and working with DIYers. IT IS GREATLY APPRECIATED. You are very kind to share your knowledge and help others.
Thanks again for your help and time.
Greg Edwards
Hi Greg,
One possible solution here is to get a mini DSP Flex I/O model with digital in and digital out and feed the digital outs to two 2ch DAC's of your choice. The mini DSP Flex I/O accepts FIR filters so I think Perry's filters can be used. Perry would know better.
Nash
One possible solution here is to get a mini DSP Flex I/O model with digital in and digital out and feed the digital outs to two 2ch DAC's of your choice. The mini DSP Flex I/O accepts FIR filters so I think Perry's filters can be used. Perry would know better.
Nash
I cannot say definitively because I have not tested it myself. Tom Perazella is a very long time friend and he talks about the Danville in this Boston Audio Society meeting, he is very astute and says it's the best digital crossover he's used, by far: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ompetition-updated-design.405104/post-7665501
Here's another thread talking about it: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ompetition-updated-design.405104/post-7657939
@nashbap 's suggestion above is very good. This comes down to the quality of high end DACs and the fine distinctions between various ways of implementing digital filters.
Is $4K for Danville vs $600-$800 for Flex8 worth the money? In the context of high end audio writ large and the fact that Bitches Brew speakers easily compete with speakers in the $100K++ range (ref comment by Jakob Pettersson who said they were better than the $300K Avant Gardes) then the extra money is easily justified. The BB design is an "end game" system.
To implement Bitches Brew on Danville will require that you open the BB files on the MiniDSP Device Console software and copy the settings over, and upload FIR files so it's more involved and ambitious.
Perry thank again for quick and detailed response. I will review the links you sent me. I really appreciate you sharing the information with me. Thanks again for your kind help.
Nash thanks for your input. I will look at your recommendation. Thanks for your help. It is greatly appreciated.
I'm just chiming in and saying a big thank you to especially Perry, but to all of the others involved. You have saved me a ton of money and time looking for an end game system.
Could this be considered as a reference system for doing mastering work, given an appropriate room, room treatment and amplification?
Could this be considered as a reference system for doing mastering work, given an appropriate room, room treatment and amplification?
Yes certainly. For example my Flanagangsters https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/open-baffle-bass-reflex-hybrid.393837/page-9#post-7884420 serve as the main reference monitors at Berwyn recording studio in Chicago, and the Bitches Brews are considerably more advanced.
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https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/open-baffle-bass-reflex-hybrid.393837/post-7884420
(Perry, best not to copy the address bar since your page setting doesn't match those of other members. Try taking the link from the post# in the top right of a post.)
(Perry, best not to copy the address bar since your page setting doesn't match those of other members. Try taking the link from the post# in the top right of a post.)
Very, very intrigued. I can see myself building a pair.Heard these recently, really loved them, and now plan to build them. Others embarking on the same journey, please share! Ideally this thread can concentrate the latest design notes, guides and user builds.
The speakers: https://evo2.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Bitches_Brew_Open_Baffle_Live_Edge_Speakers.pdf
A note on the passive crossover: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...over-vs-parallel-for-subs-open-baffle.404680/
Another note on the crossover: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/open-baffle-bass-reflex-hybrid.393837/page-3#post-7250690
And the latest updates from @perrymarshall: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...on-updated-design.405104/page-19#post-7938344
My plan is to biamp, keeping the passive crossover between the 15OB350 and 15CXN88 mid-woofer. It seems a more elegant and reasonable solution than triamping, although the triamp route is tempting. I'll do a 5º tilt and shrink the sidewings just a little (for an overall depth of 23" instead of 26"). Design files attached. Perry, off the top of your head do you know how much low end is lost per ~3" or 6" of shrinkage on the sidewings?
Re: FIR filtering and miniDSP. From what I can tell, the miniDSP Flex Eight has FIR filters on the inputs, the Flex Balanced has them on the four outputs, and both share the same total number of taps. It looks like the Flex HTx and SHD do NOT allow user-created FIR filters. I assume Perry's files will only work on the Flex Eight, but it shouldn't be difficult to copy the settings over to other units.
I'm tempted to use the miniDSP SHD instead of Flex, with Dirac enabled. Streaming, preamp, crossover all in one box would be nice and tidy. @perrymarshall, am I correct in thinking that the main compromise with that approach is forfeiting the phase correction and phase benefits of FIR filtering in the upper range EQ (top 2 octaves?)? But Dirac should take care of that anyway? Any other issues or complications to know about if using the SHD instead of Flex?
Some lovely user builds, for reference:
@Balthazarp
Hi!
This is my version of Perry Marshalls "The Bitches Brew" open baffle. First real speaker project and I could not be more happy with the outcome. But as this is my first speaker I have built, if you have any technical questions please read the original designers notes here on the forum, he has uploaded a PDF with all info you could possibly want!
The crossovers and wiring is still not final, just so you know.
Kind Regards
Jakob P
@Subsonic1050:
Regards,
Dan
