I agree with Charles here.
I find PA drivers to produce equal or better SQ than HiFi drivers. I use PA drivers almost exclusively except for tweeters.
I find PA drivers to produce equal or better SQ than HiFi drivers. I use PA drivers almost exclusively except for tweeters.
Yes, with enough EQ etc, PA drivers would definitely work in studios. Nevertheless there could be more linear drivers out there in the market, that are specifically optimised for monitoring use. If I were you I wouldn't want to lose the advantages brought about by such an optimisation especially if the prices are close.
You could make an M2 equivalent using M115-8A. But I don't think anyone would do it when there are more suitable drivers available.
You could make an M2 equivalent using M115-8A. But I don't think anyone would do it when there are more suitable drivers available.
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I think everyone is making valid points here for the most part. Remembering that this site covers such a wide range of values, taste and experience is the key. While I need drivers to exhibit reasonably linearity, exceptional linearity it is not at the top of my list.
For example, look at the Open Source Monkey Box project. When I look at commercial studio monitors the dream was always a set of the big ATC monitors, that mid dome is legendary but now not available to DIY. So they used the next best thing... the $700 Volt mid dome, with a waveguide loaded hifi tweeter from scanspeak. Both of these drivers could/should be considered as top tier hifi drivers... but then they used a Faital Pro woofer which is essentially a PA driver for the bass. The results appear to be fantastic and I was very tempted by that project and could still go in that direction, but as much as I would love to listen to music through those speakers, the idea of thrashing around on my bass and guitar with a 3" dome mide taking all that abuse from around 4-500 Hz and up just didn't seem right to me. And then, as mentioned, there are just so many very successful examples of speaker projects using PA drivers but in overall designs clearly targeted for home hifi use, I think it is really safe to say it is all a non-issue at this point when it comes to sound quality. IMHO there is not a meaningful difference in sound quality, but their does tend to be smoother FR across many hifi drivers, and they are generally of smaller size with lower fs and parameters that allow for smaller and especially narrower cabinet designs which are more easily accommodated in a domestic setting.
If I was going to use hifi drivers for my needs, it would be the Eton 12 from 20-400 Hz, the Volt mid from 400Hz-2kHz and the new Satori Be tweeter in waveguide from 2kHz on up. For some reason I would not worry about the tweeter, but I would worry about the woofer and mid dome every time I plugged an instrument into my mixer and started experimenting for a few hours. And then on the rare occasion that I would have a small band cranking a dress rehersal or me lugging my monitors into a small room to actually use as PA speakers for a small event... I would feel the need to just have a separate system for those applications as mentioned above in the thread. But now I have more equipment and spending more money and I would rather just keep it simple and streamlined.
For example, look at the Open Source Monkey Box project. When I look at commercial studio monitors the dream was always a set of the big ATC monitors, that mid dome is legendary but now not available to DIY. So they used the next best thing... the $700 Volt mid dome, with a waveguide loaded hifi tweeter from scanspeak. Both of these drivers could/should be considered as top tier hifi drivers... but then they used a Faital Pro woofer which is essentially a PA driver for the bass. The results appear to be fantastic and I was very tempted by that project and could still go in that direction, but as much as I would love to listen to music through those speakers, the idea of thrashing around on my bass and guitar with a 3" dome mide taking all that abuse from around 4-500 Hz and up just didn't seem right to me. And then, as mentioned, there are just so many very successful examples of speaker projects using PA drivers but in overall designs clearly targeted for home hifi use, I think it is really safe to say it is all a non-issue at this point when it comes to sound quality. IMHO there is not a meaningful difference in sound quality, but their does tend to be smoother FR across many hifi drivers, and they are generally of smaller size with lower fs and parameters that allow for smaller and especially narrower cabinet designs which are more easily accommodated in a domestic setting.
If I was going to use hifi drivers for my needs, it would be the Eton 12 from 20-400 Hz, the Volt mid from 400Hz-2kHz and the new Satori Be tweeter in waveguide from 2kHz on up. For some reason I would not worry about the tweeter, but I would worry about the woofer and mid dome every time I plugged an instrument into my mixer and started experimenting for a few hours. And then on the rare occasion that I would have a small band cranking a dress rehersal or me lugging my monitors into a small room to actually use as PA speakers for a small event... I would feel the need to just have a separate system for those applications as mentioned above in the thread. But now I have more equipment and spending more money and I would rather just keep it simple and streamlined.
So based on everything I am reading here and in other places, I am going to change my mid driver for something that will better handle the target crossover point and something that I think just plain looks a little nicer. Here is the lineup I am going to go with:
Radian LT6 in Radian waveguide (2kHz and above)
Eighteen Sound 6ND430 4 ohm (300Hz-2kHz)
Faital Pro 15PR400 4 ohm (30Hz-300Hz)
I think the overall size, performance, price, etc... of these will satisfy my original objectives as stated in my first post. Many others will as well, but these appeal to me and have cabinet volume examples I can borrow from and have full independent tests/evaluations I can make use of.
Radian LT6 in Radian waveguide (2kHz and above)
Eighteen Sound 6ND430 4 ohm (300Hz-2kHz)
Faital Pro 15PR400 4 ohm (30Hz-300Hz)
I think the overall size, performance, price, etc... of these will satisfy my original objectives as stated in my first post. Many others will as well, but these appeal to me and have cabinet volume examples I can borrow from and have full independent tests/evaluations I can make use of.
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The problem with alot of pro drivers is the use of lighter cones for the sake of efficiency - most of the time that spells more distortion at higher volume levels due to the breakup tendency a light cone has when pushed hard.
I'm not a fan of pushing a large cone driver well into the midrange (ie. crossing a 12" driver at 1k) where you run into cone breakup. Even though a driver may show a reasonably flat FR, THD can (and usually does) rise to unacceptable levels. That may not be such an issue at average listening levels, but louder it becomes unbearable to hifi ears.
I would cut the typical accepted pro audio LP frequencies in half on most cone drivers. That rules out a 2 way system in most cases if used for critical listening, which I've never been a fan of, especially when smaller compression drivers are used. I'd rather compromise on the extreme top end extension of the driver for cleaner midrange with a larger compression driver allowing a lower xover point.
So as long as you obey standard rules regarding xover frequencies, pro drivers are just as useful for hifi and/or monitoring purposes. Pro drivers often get a bad rep simply because people get greedy with bandwidth and level. Some of the best cone midbass and midranges are pro drivers.
I'm not a fan of pushing a large cone driver well into the midrange (ie. crossing a 12" driver at 1k) where you run into cone breakup. Even though a driver may show a reasonably flat FR, THD can (and usually does) rise to unacceptable levels. That may not be such an issue at average listening levels, but louder it becomes unbearable to hifi ears.
I would cut the typical accepted pro audio LP frequencies in half on most cone drivers. That rules out a 2 way system in most cases if used for critical listening, which I've never been a fan of, especially when smaller compression drivers are used. I'd rather compromise on the extreme top end extension of the driver for cleaner midrange with a larger compression driver allowing a lower xover point.
So as long as you obey standard rules regarding xover frequencies, pro drivers are just as useful for hifi and/or monitoring purposes. Pro drivers often get a bad rep simply because people get greedy with bandwidth and level. Some of the best cone midbass and midranges are pro drivers.
I was typing a response when profiguy chimed in with his experience but I thought it might also be possible to have a second crossover on a switch? One geared for hifi and the other maybe more towards the power handling/flavour/safety you need?
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If the drivers are decent (which they are), you won't need to alter the xover frequency. That wouldn't be beneficial anyways, mainly because optimal xover points and slopes will provide you with best off axis balance and coverage. The main concern i have is that LT6 planar driver. It has a rather rough FR and needs a bit of EQ to get it flat, which means you will drop down to around 95 dB once its corrected. It won't be such an issue if you go active xover with multiple amps, but it won't work well with a passive xover.
I'd spend a little more on the HF drivers and go with Beyma TPL150s. They sound much better, play lower and handle more power than the LT6s. I've used both and can honestly tell you the TPL150s blow away the LT6s.
The rest of your driver choices are spot on.
I'd spend a little more on the HF drivers and go with Beyma TPL150s. They sound much better, play lower and handle more power than the LT6s. I've used both and can honestly tell you the TPL150s blow away the LT6s.
The rest of your driver choices are spot on.
Linearity is not about frequency response but power compression and harmonic distortion. Further the kind of drivers I am referring to are also pro drivers, just not PA, but refined and optimised versions, that's all.
Yes, understood. I do appreciate all the sharing of perspectives here, and the knowledge base. It is all very helpful and appreciated.
profiguy, you already have experience with LT6??? Was it stand alone or in the Radian waveguide? I think the waveguide really brings this drive up a few notches in both FR balance and efficiency, at least on paper.
I initially passed on the Beyma because of the price and the size of the horn/waveguide that is optional to use with it.
Do you think the Beyma used stand alone would still be better than the LT6 in a waveguide? I was a little concerned that the Beyma would sound a little more bright/harsh and the LT6 might sound a little softer/smoother as I am really sensitive to high frequencies that lean towards cold/harsh/grainy/analytical/bright etc...
Though I suppose at the end of the day I could lean on the Hypex DSP to tame just about anything to my liking with a little time and effort.
I initially passed on the Beyma because of the price and the size of the horn/waveguide that is optional to use with it.
Do you think the Beyma used stand alone would still be better than the LT6 in a waveguide? I was a little concerned that the Beyma would sound a little more bright/harsh and the LT6 might sound a little softer/smoother as I am really sensitive to high frequencies that lean towards cold/harsh/grainy/analytical/bright etc...
Though I suppose at the end of the day I could lean on the Hypex DSP to tame just about anything to my liking with a little time and effort.
Those are good points, switchable crossovers and fuses, etc... but I do think these drivers are all going to be fine operating without any extra protection. I am really just worried about the dynamics of a live signal much more than power/volume issues and I think these drivers will all handle it nicely. I am going to explore any options for limiting/leveling in the digital domain, not sure what the Hypex modules offer in this regard. If I need to, I can put a limiter function on the digital mixer I will be using and keep things within an acceptable dynamic range and output level.
Yes, with PA sensitivity, you won't need any fuses as things would get very loud (110+ db) even at 100W and it is highly unlikely that you would want to raise the volume. Just have a 2nd order highpass filter on your DSP with cutoff equal to that of the port tuning (for a vented box) or the box resonance (for sealed box).
I assume you must be looking for 35Hz and upwards. That is a really big box for domestic use.
Yeah, I am currently looking at something around 36" wide, 22" tall and 26" deep. I am thinking about putting inset handles on each side, much like a 4x12 guitar cab for those rare occasion when I will attempt to move it around. I am also probably going to have to have some custom stands made as well. It is going to start getting expensive fairly quickly, mostly because I am going to go with 4 Hypex units, 2 x of the FA501 for the woofers, and 2 x of the FA252 on the mids and tweets. I plan to integrate the Hypex FusionAmps into the stands rather than the speaker cabinets themselves.
By horn loading the mids (5-6dB increase in sens.) you maybe able to get with smaller IC-based class AB modules, saving costs significantly. Do you really need a 3-way for 500W? I am not sure.
Edit: I just noticed that your LF is 99dB with the just 92 for the mids.
Edit: I just noticed that your LF is 99dB with the just 92 for the mids.
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The TPL150 without a waveguide will leave the LT6 with or without waveguide in the dust. The issue will however be directivity control, depending on how tight of HF pattern you need. There are several on this forum who have made their own WG for the TPL150. This driver is worth the cost from multiple aspects. Its one of the best sounding pro HF drivers I've heard to date. It handles tons of power and never runs out of headroom, so you'll never have problems using it at PA levels, even at lower HP frequencies.
The LT6 needs careful implementation and can't play as loud or as low. The upper end efficiency is marginal and the response drops off just over 8k, which requires a good amount of shelf EQ on top, especially when you get vertically a little off axis. The waveguide doesn't help it much in that department.
I'm in the process of building a smaller 3 way PA with the TPL150H (waveguide version). This decision came after I heard a 10" 2 way monitor with the Beymas and it blew me away how transient perfect and dynamic they sounded. They appeared to have nearly unlimited HF dynamic capability yet sounded like a high end monitor with very accurate and non-fatiguing treble. The LT6 in comparison was edgy and dull sounding, even with processing. That driver has some resonance and THD issues around 4-5k which makes it sound unpolished and rough at higher levels.
Don't do that...aim for achieving as much as you can without the help of the filters and then when you do use your DSP it will take things to a new level.
Hi Greggo,
With a 15" woofer it's better to use a 8" mid instead of a 6".
They will integrate better.
See Troels mid drivers test.
I just see now that you have the Radian LT6 on your list,
that one will probably be better with a 6" mid,
Grrrrrr, always those compromises with speaker design,
so pick your poison 🙂
With a 15" woofer it's better to use a 8" mid instead of a 6".
They will integrate better.
See Troels mid drivers test.
I just see now that you have the Radian LT6 on your list,
that one will probably be better with a 6" mid,
Grrrrrr, always those compromises with speaker design,
so pick your poison 🙂
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