Hey everyone,
Well I have kinda wanted to start a new project but wanted some feedback and other perspectives before I start buying stuff.
I was thinking 2 high efficiency 15" woofers with a 1" compression driver in a WTW configuration. Using the natural roll off of the 15's and crossing the tweeter over at about 2k and using an L-pad to bring the tweeters down.
Some of the drivers I was thinking about,
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/content/ProductData/Spec Sheets/55-2953.pdf
PRV Audio DT175Ph-S 1" Phenolic Horn Driver
PRV Audio DT175Ph-S 1" Phenolic Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8"-18
and something like this wave guide. I have no experience with wave guides so I'm open to ideas.
Dayton Audio H10RW 10" Round Waveguide 1" Threaded
For the cabinet I was thinking along the lines of a 22" x 6' sonotube with a 16" baffle cut out of the front. I can't seem to find any examples of what I'm talking about, but I built a set like this in the 90's with a set of 9" Dynaudio's in an Aperiodic setup.
Thanks, Jordon
I'll be running it with a
Hafler DH-110 and a AB international 600LX 270w & 8 ohms and 425w & 4 ohms
Well I have kinda wanted to start a new project but wanted some feedback and other perspectives before I start buying stuff.
I was thinking 2 high efficiency 15" woofers with a 1" compression driver in a WTW configuration. Using the natural roll off of the 15's and crossing the tweeter over at about 2k and using an L-pad to bring the tweeters down.
Some of the drivers I was thinking about,
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/content/ProductData/Spec Sheets/55-2953.pdf
PRV Audio DT175Ph-S 1" Phenolic Horn Driver
PRV Audio DT175Ph-S 1" Phenolic Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8"-18
and something like this wave guide. I have no experience with wave guides so I'm open to ideas.
Dayton Audio H10RW 10" Round Waveguide 1" Threaded
For the cabinet I was thinking along the lines of a 22" x 6' sonotube with a 16" baffle cut out of the front. I can't seem to find any examples of what I'm talking about, but I built a set like this in the 90's with a set of 9" Dynaudio's in an Aperiodic setup.
Thanks, Jordon
I'll be running it with a
Hafler DH-110 and a AB international 600LX 270w & 8 ohms and 425w & 4 ohms
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Big A$$ party speakers can be so much fun to design and throw together!
PRV makes some good products, and phenolic drivers can have a pleasant natural sound to them ... That particular one has a bit of a squawk or shout at 5k but other than that it looks pretty good , decent power handling for a low priced compression driver 🙂....
The Dayton lens is a good choice for that driver, i have used the 12" model down to 2khz before .... The plastic is thin on those lenses and it does ring a little bit (adds coloration) so i suggest brushing on some acetone to the back of the lenses and then apply a coat of some sort of construction adhesive (like PL premium 3x) that bonds well in order to damp the lens ..... People say that "flashing" works well too , but i haven't yet tried that method .....
The MCM 15" drivers will likely end up being a frustration or disappointment , this model like many of their other models don't currently meet their published specs (check out the review written by "Longdrive03" which actually lists the real measured T/S parameters like QES/QTS and SPL).... MCM currently has some sort of issue with their driver manufacturing and i hope they get that straightened out soon but for the moment their woofers are not measuring up to expectations, not even remotely close 🙁
15s generally aren't reliable up to 2khz anyhow, they become "beamy" (no dispersion) and muddy off-axis so it is best to go three-way when using 15s to avoid those issues ....
Check out the deal on the Eminence LAB15-4 on ebay right now , it is the 4ohm special edition of the LAB15 .... It has literally 4 times as much excursion as those MCMs and the specs will be accurate so half as many woofs will produce more bass and in a smaller box even! 😀 260 for a pair SHIPPED!
So to keep costs low i would suggest using 1 LAB15-4 per box (tune to 35hz) and go three way .... You can find cheap mids all over the place, some are sealed back, MCM actually sells a few ....
PRV makes some good products, and phenolic drivers can have a pleasant natural sound to them ... That particular one has a bit of a squawk or shout at 5k but other than that it looks pretty good , decent power handling for a low priced compression driver 🙂....
The Dayton lens is a good choice for that driver, i have used the 12" model down to 2khz before .... The plastic is thin on those lenses and it does ring a little bit (adds coloration) so i suggest brushing on some acetone to the back of the lenses and then apply a coat of some sort of construction adhesive (like PL premium 3x) that bonds well in order to damp the lens ..... People say that "flashing" works well too , but i haven't yet tried that method .....
The MCM 15" drivers will likely end up being a frustration or disappointment , this model like many of their other models don't currently meet their published specs (check out the review written by "Longdrive03" which actually lists the real measured T/S parameters like QES/QTS and SPL).... MCM currently has some sort of issue with their driver manufacturing and i hope they get that straightened out soon but for the moment their woofers are not measuring up to expectations, not even remotely close 🙁
15s generally aren't reliable up to 2khz anyhow, they become "beamy" (no dispersion) and muddy off-axis so it is best to go three-way when using 15s to avoid those issues ....
Check out the deal on the Eminence LAB15-4 on ebay right now , it is the 4ohm special edition of the LAB15 .... It has literally 4 times as much excursion as those MCMs and the specs will be accurate so half as many woofs will produce more bass and in a smaller box even! 😀 260 for a pair SHIPPED!
So to keep costs low i would suggest using 1 LAB15-4 per box (tune to 35hz) and go three way .... You can find cheap mids all over the place, some are sealed back, MCM actually sells a few ....
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I think he has some CV already.
I would avoid that woofer, the Qts is probably higher than advertised (most MCM drivers are), and if it was correct your box would be way too small.
That little compression driver wouldn't do the job either.
I would avoid that woofer, the Qts is probably higher than advertised (most MCM drivers are), and if it was correct your box would be way too small.
That little compression driver wouldn't do the job either.
"decent power handling for a low priced compression driver "
I will wager that it will catch on fire if run at more than 15W long term average power, and that it will roll off above 5Khz and turn off above 12Khz or so.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-2110--cdx1-1010-spec-sheet.pdf
A much better driver, still inadequate for the proposed use. Note the 15W power rating.
JBL sells a POS like what he is proposing, the JRX125.
http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/JBL_JRX125.v1.pdf
I would use this at 800hz
http://www.parts-express.com/prv-audio-d250ph-s-1-phenolic-horn-driver-8-ohm-1-3-8-18-tpi--294-2825
On this
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-h812-1-exponential-horn-100x60-2-bolt--270-304
And cross the tweeter at 4Khz
I will wager that it will catch on fire if run at more than 15W long term average power, and that it will roll off above 5Khz and turn off above 12Khz or so.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-2110--cdx1-1010-spec-sheet.pdf
A much better driver, still inadequate for the proposed use. Note the 15W power rating.
JBL sells a POS like what he is proposing, the JRX125.
http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/JBL_JRX125.v1.pdf
I would use this at 800hz
http://www.parts-express.com/prv-audio-d250ph-s-1-phenolic-horn-driver-8-ohm-1-3-8-18-tpi--294-2825
On this
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-h812-1-exponential-horn-100x60-2-bolt--270-304
And cross the tweeter at 4Khz
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Another good midrange compression driver, this one is made by Selenium , also from Brazil ... Seems to get consistently positive reviews and doesn't cost too much more than the PRV ...
Selenium D250-X GW 1" Phenolic Horn Driver 1-3/8"-18 TPI
Selenium D250-X GW 1" Phenolic Horn Driver 1-3/8"-18 TPI
Don't cross a 15" at 2khz. It's just a bad idea.
You can pick up used/recone JBl 2226 on eBay for about $150 shipped if you keep en eye out. One of two of those ported at like 45hz- with a horn/CD or even a coaxial mid would be nice.
how about the $80 eminence 1" CD and 10" eminence coax woofer ? The CD bolts right up to it, both are affordable. The 10" should be an easy cross from the 15", as is the 1" from the the 10" so you can stay safe/conservative and really pound on them. Should do 120db+ safe and sound good.
Otherwise a bigger CD will cross lower too. Skip the mid and go simple 2 way. This is the basis of most good pro level speakers anyways. But crossing 2khz isn't great idea you'll hear woofer cone break up in the critical midrange.
You can pick up used/recone JBl 2226 on eBay for about $150 shipped if you keep en eye out. One of two of those ported at like 45hz- with a horn/CD or even a coaxial mid would be nice.
how about the $80 eminence 1" CD and 10" eminence coax woofer ? The CD bolts right up to it, both are affordable. The 10" should be an easy cross from the 15", as is the 1" from the the 10" so you can stay safe/conservative and really pound on them. Should do 120db+ safe and sound good.
Otherwise a bigger CD will cross lower too. Skip the mid and go simple 2 way. This is the basis of most good pro level speakers anyways. But crossing 2khz isn't great idea you'll hear woofer cone break up in the critical midrange.
See if you can grab some EV DH1a compression drivers. They seem to be quite cheap over your side of the pond.
Bolt them to the biggest horn you can find, and cross over around 800Hz. Should be fine for most 15"s.
This would probably work out cheaper than trying to get a midrange driver in there, with the additional crossover complexities.
If it was mine, I'd probably spend 2x the money on half the 15" drivers - get a 15" plus tweeter a side, to start off with.
Next time you've got some spare cash, get another pair of 15"s. Run them off a similar crossover (or modify the existing one), and reduce attenuation on the tweeter.
You could do that until your amp gives up or you run out of space.
You'll end up sounding much better from the get-go, with the ability to expand later. A good single 15" will do all the bass of a 2x15", and probably sound better doing it.
Chris
Bolt them to the biggest horn you can find, and cross over around 800Hz. Should be fine for most 15"s.
This would probably work out cheaper than trying to get a midrange driver in there, with the additional crossover complexities.
If it was mine, I'd probably spend 2x the money on half the 15" drivers - get a 15" plus tweeter a side, to start off with.
Next time you've got some spare cash, get another pair of 15"s. Run them off a similar crossover (or modify the existing one), and reduce attenuation on the tweeter.
You could do that until your amp gives up or you run out of space.
You'll end up sounding much better from the get-go, with the ability to expand later. A good single 15" will do all the bass of a 2x15", and probably sound better doing it.
Chris
Thanks for the info, has anyone played around with something like this to increase the dispersion of large drivers? Weber Beam Blocker -- high frequency diffuser https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeteI0G-nMU
I have a set of Cerwin Vega's with 12" woofers and they are run full range. I think I'll play around with some kind of reflectors to try and change the dispersion, and get some readings on what can be done.
I have a set of Cerwin Vega's with 12" woofers and they are run full range. I think I'll play around with some kind of reflectors to try and change the dispersion, and get some readings on what can be done.
That may not be the best way to improve dispersion.
The video was a total fail if you listen to the HF.
If you listen to the mids, it worked.
This may be a better solution:
Its been around since the '50s. You can play around with the shape of the opening and measure what gives the flattest on-axis response. I've used rectangles and ellipses, both with the long-axis vertical (as is the JBL). Make one out of cardboard and give it a try. When you find the shape you want, make it out of Masonite and attach it firmly. I did this for a guy using a JBL 2226 for his mids (which were crossing too high so his 1" Radian drivers wouldn't blow). The improvement in the midrange on drums (especially the snare drum) were quite obvious. We took the cardboard and just painted it black, nothing fancy.
The 12" JBL uses the same technology, the 10" does not really need it.
http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/EON612_SpecSheet_4%2028%2015.pdf
The video was a total fail if you listen to the HF.
If you listen to the mids, it worked.
This may be a better solution:
Its been around since the '50s. You can play around with the shape of the opening and measure what gives the flattest on-axis response. I've used rectangles and ellipses, both with the long-axis vertical (as is the JBL). Make one out of cardboard and give it a try. When you find the shape you want, make it out of Masonite and attach it firmly. I did this for a guy using a JBL 2226 for his mids (which were crossing too high so his 1" Radian drivers wouldn't blow). The improvement in the midrange on drums (especially the snare drum) were quite obvious. We took the cardboard and just painted it black, nothing fancy.
The 12" JBL uses the same technology, the 10" does not really need it.
http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/EON612_SpecSheet_4%2028%2015.pdf
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Looks like a fun project!
I actually have a bunch of 3/8' cast acrylic rounds for making Hot Rod air filter tops. It would be pretty easy to cut a shape out then bend them with a heat gun.
I can't seem to find much information on waveguides and woofers. Is there any keywords I should be searching for?
Thanks
I actually have a bunch of 3/8' cast acrylic rounds for making Hot Rod air filter tops. It would be pretty easy to cut a shape out then bend them with a heat gun.
I can't seem to find much information on waveguides and woofers. Is there any keywords I should be searching for?
Thanks
I use the D250 in the midrange horn here and an entry level Selenium CD in the tweeter horn. Both do a decent job for party time.
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And if nothing else works in the recycle department then Cerwin Vegas will fit the bill. These MV-15 were $100 a pair from a bar that was changing it's inventory. I'm sure there's something out there you can find with a few phone calls. If you google, you'll even see that same picture from my sun room. 🙂
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Hi. What's your budget? What are your plans for crossovers? Size constraints? Target SPL? How much design work do you want to do? What compromises can you accept?
If you are considering large format two-way speakers and want sound quality I'd recommend checking out econowave and SEOS (DIYSoundGroup) threads on the net to become familiar with the design constraints of such systems if you haven't already.
Otherwise, a pair of large horn loaded two-ways and a big horn-loaded sub (or two) should get the party rocking.
If you are considering large format two-way speakers and want sound quality I'd recommend checking out econowave and SEOS (DIYSoundGroup) threads on the net to become familiar with the design constraints of such systems if you haven't already.
Otherwise, a pair of large horn loaded two-ways and a big horn-loaded sub (or two) should get the party rocking.
Here is exactly what you want:
Pair of vintage Cerwin Vega 311P speakers with the original base drivers upgraded/replaced with unique high end JVC 12" HIGH DISPERSION drivers, similar design to the RCA LS-1 style woofer design.
PM me if you are interested and want more info on them. -Richard
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