The best combination that I ever tried utilized a pair of 416's in 828 cabinets, 311-60 horns with adapters and 802 drivers. If only I had ARTA back then. I never had the opportunity to work with the multicellular horns, unfortunately.
Gary Dahl
Gary Dahl
Then I would think the A5 was still basically an A7 with the larger driver and horn. The A2's we used with 311-90 and multicells. Sometimes we used some WE W-horns for some
added bottom.
Later everyone went to the Eastern Acoustics bass bins that just were a smaller version of an A7 without the large port slots.
added bottom.
Later everyone went to the Eastern Acoustics bass bins that just were a smaller version of an A7 without the large port slots.
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Officially, A5s used 515s in lieu of the A7's 416s to go with the larger driver/horn combos.
GM
GM
I guess the discussion of 1" vs 1.4" CDs is more about available drivers than what is possible. WE had no problem making a wide band small format CD. I use LM555 (18mm throat) drivers on 160Hz jmlc horns with 1st order 320Hz cross over. Floats my boat. I also like horn loaded cone mids but the 555 has more detail, depth etc and doesn't sound over stretched. Once you can get 320Hz to 10KHz from a single horn / driver most of your problems go away. Obviously a 1.2m long straight horn is not convenient or commercial but then I don't mind.
martin
martin
Trutones comments re very welcome right at this point, so we have the beginning of a normal distribution curve from below 1" through 1 3/4 " The 3/4" and 2" are well down each side of the maxima. We need many more points of course. But 1" seems to hit some sort of median or mean. This covers the spread of wave guide and horns with their range of Fs. choice from 600Hz down to 200Hz or lower.
So let us assume this gives us 1" throat CD with Fs of say 400Hz ( pretty close to Azura 425) Le Cleach or OS round proven popular choice.
So Lynn is well on track for an all rounder but for the 44mm throat. You can add a supertweeter if you really can work with it. You can add a sub if you really want more thunder.
But the 1" is close by and reduces the chance you may want or need a super tweeter. So my money is on the 1".
So those who have the Azura 425 should try an adaptor with a 1" CD.
Why not the B & C DE250 as a starter. Maybe some body has tried it and could tell us their experience. Earl ? with Azura425
Regarding the lower band the 416B or TD15M etc It is surely sorted.
Many of the Altec WE and other older selections seem to have people who are protagonists or otherwise. But the old makes are water under the bridge. Anything new should really be done with new available parts that have a spares backup for a DIY project.
So let us assume this gives us 1" throat CD with Fs of say 400Hz ( pretty close to Azura 425) Le Cleach or OS round proven popular choice.
So Lynn is well on track for an all rounder but for the 44mm throat. You can add a supertweeter if you really can work with it. You can add a sub if you really want more thunder.
But the 1" is close by and reduces the chance you may want or need a super tweeter. So my money is on the 1".
So those who have the Azura 425 should try an adaptor with a 1" CD.
Why not the B & C DE250 as a starter. Maybe some body has tried it and could tell us their experience. Earl ? with Azura425
Regarding the lower band the 416B or TD15M etc It is surely sorted.
Many of the Altec WE and other older selections seem to have people who are protagonists or otherwise. But the old makes are water under the bridge. Anything new should really be done with new available parts that have a spares backup for a DIY project.
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For my money all of the B&C CD devices are state-of-the-art. I used the DE250 for almost a decade, but recently switched all the drivers to their neodymium varieties (DE500, 15NBX100) and like them even more than the older ceramics. As I have often said, base on my subjective studies, the driver makes very little difference. The waveguide dominates the sound.
You are certainly not the worst offender, but around here the usual technique to end all discussion is to play the "Sounds good to me!" card whenever someone doesn't like the results of measurements. This position can neither be proven or refuted, so what is the point.
Thanks Kindhornman, for the very helpful criticism and advice.
Somehow I was always under the impressive that horns in general had superior HF response; it’s very upsetting to learn otherwise.
It’s been 3 years since I’ve had a hearing test, but I was able to hear out to at least 15kHz. Dr. David Schessel from SUNY/Stonybrook was impressed, and I was elated, or course. Some times being a fanatic really pays off. Watch those SPLs, reduce your high LDL cholesterol levels and caloric intake and never take ototoxic drugs!
12 Scientists ID key protein that links dietary restriction with healthy hearing, aging University of Florida and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ototoxicity#Ototoxic_agents None of us have to be told how priceless a gift this is. And we also know that once some number of hair cells are dead, then some part of our ears’ response is gone. Harvard and MIT researchers have restored between 40 and 60% of hearing in deaf rats. https://hms.harvard.edu/news/gene-therapy-restores-hearing-deaf-mice But it’s anyone’s guess when human trials will begin. Do NOT put yourself in the position of having to wait that long.
As badly as I want to hear Gary’s system I cannot travel 3000 miles. The first time I flew was a roundtrip between New York and Denver when I was very young. The last time was in 2008, visiting my brother in Georgia. Not only was I just plain terrified, but when the plane climbed and/or encountered turbulence the pressure on my ears drove me to tears. No way will I EVER fly again! I simply will not take that kind of risk. A no-brainer as far as I’m concerned-though I know that the rest of the world hardly agrees me; I guess I don't blame them.
Gary’s replies here and what you also said about adding the AMT or ribbon HF drivers have easily convinced me to drop those ideas. Still, from what Lynn said about the virtues of AMTs, and the Beyma TPL150 or 150/h in particular, it’s a shame that they most likely cannot be successfully used above Gary’s horns. Another of my crazy ideas: If 40 of us did a group of a pair of these Beyma TPL-150H pleated diaphragm horn tweeter - Beyma TPL-150H - Beyma TPL-150H high frequency horn tweeter. Beyma TPL-150H high frequency tweeter is available here at US Speaker. Beyma TPL-150H speaker components. then, along with a possible price break, it would cost us under $24. to find out for sure. Just saying….
The real dilemma I now face is this: Do I go with the 1.4” Azurahorn AH425/Radian 745NeoBe combo that Gary had wonderful success with, or the Azurahorn AH550 1” horn, which you say will yield response well past 10kHz. But who knows what driver?
However, Radian makes no 1” version of the 745NeoBe. And I want the Beryllium diaphragm that Gary and Lynn are happy with, not Titanium. But if a 1” driver gave overall performance better than this particular Radian driver, but cost as much Martin Seddon’s favorite Vitavox Deco Audio Drive Units
Vitavox Hifi - Vitavox continues to build on this illustrious history hand crafting components to power some of the world's finest loudspeaker systems or Goto drivers http://audio-life.nl/usermedia/files/Goto-info.pdf Contact - http://www.goto-unit.com then no thanks.
Alternately, staying with the proven AH425/Radian 745NeoBe-which I think is by far the safest bet-and adding an HF horn driver, like you suggested, is fine, as I assume you’d be assured of their complete compatibility. But I know that TAD drivers are also very expensive so the TAD ET-703 drivers are probably not an option, Besides, I can’t find a price on them new or used anywhere. Strangely, here’s someone who didn’t like the sound of them when used in an Azurahorn High Efficiency Speaker Asylum
I’ve read that DSP can help to very easily solve a bunch of bass management problems, and I may well consider using it with my Rythmik subs if need be. But using DSP anywhere above the low bass range is asking for less than the best sound your system can produce, in my opinion. If your source is strictly vinyl, then a system getting hit with one pass of A-D/D-A conversion is one thing. But if you’re like me and all your music are from CDs and high-def downloads, then suffering two digitizing conversions are two too many.
So if great performing HF horns and drivers are much too expensive, at least apparent HF response extension if possible from the AH425/Radian 745NeoBe- thanks to Pierre’s kindly assistance with adding his EQ circuit once I add my horns to my Altec 416s. But is this a passive EQ circuit that does what I think you described: Slightly attenuating the midrange to give an apparent boost to the high end? Or is an active EQ circuit that actually extends the HF response of Gary’s horns beyond 10kHz-and using no DSP and adding little, if any, distortion?
ps: When you say that you never use a compression driver below 1.5kHz, then would switching from Gary’s 1.4” AH425 horn/Radian 745NeoBe to a 1” combo make it impossible to directly cross with his sealed Altec 416s without penalty? I haven’t asked Gary yet what filter, slope and Fc he uses, but I do know that he has the 416s begin playing at 700Hz. So if Gary had crossed them to player higher wouldn’t he have serious dispersion and other problems?
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Beyma claims that this particular model can go down to 700Hz. http://www.beyma.com/getpdf.php?pid=TPL-150/H So would the Beyma TPL 150/h, with its built-in waveguide (?) successfully work when crossed above Gary Dahl's horns? But where and how to place it?
Oltos,
You can use a 1" compression driver with those 1.4" entrance horns with a simple adapter. What I will say about that is the network that Gary and Pierre have worked out for the 1.4" Radian will not be correct with a different driver. You would have to retune the network to work with the driver if there are any notch filters involved and you would probably need to shift the shelving frequency a bit higher I would think. I have a feeling that the 745Neo-Be driver is the outlier of the Radian drivers, the other models are just average CD's really, nothing special and they just don't sound that great. I think I would be looking elsewhere for a small 1" driver that has better sonic qualities than the Radians. As I said before it took my friend doing some strange network design to make those work, a simple network won't do them justice. Very similar ideas to what Gary has had to do with the larger driver.
On your comment about dsp I think you have that wrong. If you are using a digital source then you wouldn't have a problem with doing everything in the digital domain, today I don't even want to consider an analog passive network, you just can't do the things you can with a dsp system. It is another area that is not just something you can just jump into though, the learning curve is going to be steep to do it right.
If I was you I would build a clone of what Gary has done, listen to it and later you can make changes if you really think it is needed. I don't know the absolute upper frequency limit of the Radian 1.4' driver with the Be diaphragm but Gary or Pierre must know that now, ask for some FR graphs and see if it will reach your 15Khz hearing acuity.
What I have a feeling is going to happen if you start second guessing everything is that you will be on another ten year quest as Lynn has been. In order to get the sound they are after you really do need to follow their plan, that includes all the source components or you are truly going to end up with different end results.
You can use a 1" compression driver with those 1.4" entrance horns with a simple adapter. What I will say about that is the network that Gary and Pierre have worked out for the 1.4" Radian will not be correct with a different driver. You would have to retune the network to work with the driver if there are any notch filters involved and you would probably need to shift the shelving frequency a bit higher I would think. I have a feeling that the 745Neo-Be driver is the outlier of the Radian drivers, the other models are just average CD's really, nothing special and they just don't sound that great. I think I would be looking elsewhere for a small 1" driver that has better sonic qualities than the Radians. As I said before it took my friend doing some strange network design to make those work, a simple network won't do them justice. Very similar ideas to what Gary has had to do with the larger driver.
On your comment about dsp I think you have that wrong. If you are using a digital source then you wouldn't have a problem with doing everything in the digital domain, today I don't even want to consider an analog passive network, you just can't do the things you can with a dsp system. It is another area that is not just something you can just jump into though, the learning curve is going to be steep to do it right.
If I was you I would build a clone of what Gary has done, listen to it and later you can make changes if you really think it is needed. I don't know the absolute upper frequency limit of the Radian 1.4' driver with the Be diaphragm but Gary or Pierre must know that now, ask for some FR graphs and see if it will reach your 15Khz hearing acuity.
What I have a feeling is going to happen if you start second guessing everything is that you will be on another ten year quest as Lynn has been. In order to get the sound they are after you really do need to follow their plan, that includes all the source components or you are truly going to end up with different end results.
here guys, take a look
My tweeters are not the Beyma's; they share quite the resemblance but are
the Stage Accompany SA 8535.
I cross between the big red horn and the tweeter at 3500Hz. You really can't see it, but there is a piece of 4 inch thick fiberglass on top of the red horn to absorb any reflections from the tweeter. My approach does not fit the "formula"
but seems to integrate well.
The cones in the red horns are TB W8-1772. They sound pretty good, but still do not have the last word in resolution as compared to what I got previously using a compression driver.
The way this thread has held the 416-8B in such high regard has me wanting to integrate a pair I have, into the system and replace the red horns with my EV white whales and adjust the various crossover frequencies accordingly.
For those interested, the ppsl's measure just fine up to 800 Hz (no peaks at all) but am considering moving them over to woofer use only, and augment the lower mid range with the 416-8B.
The only thing is, I don't move/and/or change things very fast these days.
My tweeters are not the Beyma's; they share quite the resemblance but are
the Stage Accompany SA 8535.
I cross between the big red horn and the tweeter at 3500Hz. You really can't see it, but there is a piece of 4 inch thick fiberglass on top of the red horn to absorb any reflections from the tweeter. My approach does not fit the "formula"
but seems to integrate well.
The cones in the red horns are TB W8-1772. They sound pretty good, but still do not have the last word in resolution as compared to what I got previously using a compression driver.
The way this thread has held the 416-8B in such high regard has me wanting to integrate a pair I have, into the system and replace the red horns with my EV white whales and adjust the various crossover frequencies accordingly.
For those interested, the ppsl's measure just fine up to 800 Hz (no peaks at all) but am considering moving them over to woofer use only, and augment the lower mid range with the 416-8B.
The only thing is, I don't move/and/or change things very fast these days.
Attachments
Maybe you can arrange to hear Pierre's speakers. Can you travel to Ottawa without flying?
Gary Dahl
There are a few long threads on the Beyma TPL-150H which include measurements and personal listening feedback for a diverse range of speaker design options.
I think the general agreement was:
0) No one in diyAudio uses a 700Hz crossover. Even Beyma's free public (Pro-Sound) speaker designs do not use the TPL-150H below 1.1Khz.
1) The TPL-150H can be safely crossed at 1.2Khz with a steep slope, but it "can" sound strained around the crossover freq. Using 1.2Khz is not recommended for hi-end home audio.
2) A LR4 crossover at 1.6Khz has good measurement data and is highly recommended by almost all TPL-150H owners.
3) A few owners favor a LR4 crossover at 2Khz for absolutely-clean treble.
4) Beyma has put the TPL-150H through 3-revisions. In 2010 Beyma published research data on new manufacturing methods for AMT film-foil technology which showed significant improvements. I would look for a manufacturing date later than 2012.
Yeah, I keep telling folks it's not the compression driver exit size, but the horn size/flare that sets its usable gain BW over 'x - y' pattern.
The 'workaround' I did 'to have my cake and eat it too' way back when to replace 805/288 horns was to vertically stack two 511/802 horns [no loading caps] and roll off one to create a 1.5 way horn.
This gave me the highs of a 1", the full mids of the bigger 805/288 plus a bonus of a superior vertical response and with a bit more driver/exit and horn mouth area I was able to XO it at 350 Hz instead of the 805's and 511s 500 Hz to the modded 210s to help me further damp its [long term] obnoxious parallel horn panel's eigenmodes.
To finish them off, I made a horn mouth extension/'baffle' out of open cell foam to quell the worst of the 511's eigenmodes/reflections back to the throat as well as between them and the 210's horn panel they mounted to.
Years later in an effort to further improve SQ and lower the XO further, I made a WG that was basically the size/shape of a tar damped 1503's outer shell with a Mantaray 'flip-out' mouth terminus added and with the dual 802s managed to successfully use a 300 Hz XO without the need for a super tweeter or sounding 'harsh', though a few females remarked that they sounded a little 'sharp', so added the foam mouth extension/'baffle' and all was 'right with the world', so to speak.
Yeah, size is a big problem for many folks, though corner loaded, mine only extended ~4 ft [corner axis] into the room, so no worse than some fine furniture corner cabs.
GM
GM,
So many nice 15" speakers can so easily get up to 600-700hz nice and cleanly why go so low with the compression drivers? I get now wanting to go up to 1.5Khz with a 15" cone but to only use many only up to 300 hz seem to be just going in the opposite direction.
I remember back in the day we actually used JBL 15's instead of Altec's in the large A2 enclosures, they just had a nicer sound up into the vocal range than some of the old Altec 15" drivers. Of course we couldn't use one of the really large 1.4" drivers down as low as 300hz in outdoor concerts and not blow the diaphragms out or have them hit the phase plug, that wouldn't have gone over to well with the crowds.
So many nice 15" speakers can so easily get up to 600-700hz nice and cleanly why go so low with the compression drivers? I get now wanting to go up to 1.5Khz with a 15" cone but to only use many only up to 300 hz seem to be just going in the opposite direction.
I remember back in the day we actually used JBL 15's instead of Altec's in the large A2 enclosures, they just had a nicer sound up into the vocal range than some of the old Altec 15" drivers. Of course we couldn't use one of the really large 1.4" drivers down as low as 300hz in outdoor concerts and not blow the diaphragms out or have them hit the phase plug, that wouldn't have gone over to well with the crowds.
Fine, but please don't tell me that I won't have good results bi-amping a clone of Gary's system with this active crossover http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/prod_b4_man.pdf
Agreed.
Agreed.
Oltos - Yes you are welcome to my place. This would be time well spent and fun for both of us IMHO. Bring your choice of music. Send me a PM if you are interested.
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Long island to Ottawa? That's one BIG road trip. How many days/nights via Amtrak? Maybe, if I had more vacation time from day job.
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