No EQ, that's why i don't use "SEOS" or constant directivity waveguides. I use horns through their linear bandpass - The crossover is correct by ear by sound and level. I am crossing to the midrange horn I am intimately familiar with - I always listen to my drivers for while to recognize their character before I start the measuring process. Usually at low levels and no crossover -That way I'm not stuck at the measuring stage forever wondering what I need to do.. If they pass that stage I go on. These are fine
The "horn as an EQ device" has its limits: your horn+driver system might beam and somewhat EQ your driver mass roll off up high, but it will still require a fair amount of EQ (not even talking about notches there...) to get a reasonably flat response up high.
In this situation, comparing different drivers and trying to draw conclusions is completely pointless as none of them has the same mass breakpoint frequency (among many other differences). Same goes for horns comparison of course.
And then doing the crossover without measurement is even more adventurous: you need to measure your horn's natural roll off to know what electrical filter will combine with it and form a complementary filter to your midrange horn (which also has its own roll off to deal with...).
Trying to do those things by ear is like driving your car with your eyes shut.
Well, I guess you can still argue that you know the road well enough...
In this situation, comparing different drivers and trying to draw conclusions is completely pointless as none of them has the same mass breakpoint frequency (among many other differences). Same goes for horns comparison of course.
And then doing the crossover without measurement is even more adventurous: you need to measure your horn's natural roll off to know what electrical filter will combine with it and form a complementary filter to your midrange horn (which also has its own roll off to deal with...).
Trying to do those things by ear is like driving your car with your eyes shut.
Well, I guess you can still argue that you know the road well enough...
I didn't say I don't measure i said I listen to the driver first to get it's character for my approval. When you run multi-way full range horns EQ is virtually pointless and causes you to use drivers out of their range (nasty) so the system "measures good" - been there done that I'll leave that to you and others that enjoy that kind of thing 🙂
That's good to read 🙂
I've been looking at the ketone faitals for awhile and the price is right. Been searching for an upgrade over my seos12/de250 for small pa work.
I can definitely relate to this. Same thought that came to me when I first heard the 745NeoBe drivers and GPA-416B woofers. If they were sinning, I didn't want to know about it.
Nice to hear about the Faitals. As good as you say they sound, they must be doing more than a few things right.
I have run into quite a few products that measure well but sound just okay, but also some the other way around. I suspect that some things that really matter to our ears aren't so easy to measure...and vice versa.
Gary Dahl
And then there's things that only matter to the imagination. Some people ignore diffraction, poorly performing drivers, meaningful amplifier topology differences, and eschew all meaningful matters for some kind of fantasy land, then post about it ad nauseum.
What exactly is your problem with my speaker designs anyway? 😀
(How's it going Bad Guy. It's been a while!)
Best Regards,
Terry
Too much wood putty 😛
Doin' well, as crotchety as ever, and have some projects in the works that are rather fun but move too slowly- like this thread.
Hello pooh
I look at it the the other way around. If the horn gives you an on and off axis response that mirrors the mass roll-off of the compression driver to me that is a linear horn to borrow your term. The response mirrors the driver.
The others are using the narrowing directivity to alter and flatten the response. That to me makes them non linear and to add insult to injury the on and off axis responses will be very different making them almost impossible to EQ.
I quess it all depends on how you look at it.
Rob🙂
I look at it the the other way around. If the horn gives you an on and off axis response that mirrors the mass roll-off of the compression driver to me that is a linear horn to borrow your term. The response mirrors the driver.
The others are using the narrowing directivity to alter and flatten the response. That to me makes them non linear and to add insult to injury the on and off axis responses will be very different making them almost impossible to EQ.
I quess it all depends on how you look at it.
Rob🙂
Has anyone tried one of the 1" Ketone Polymer Faital drivers? I would be interested in anyone's opinion of these drivers.
I have the bottom-end HF100's in Faital's STH100 horn, but I don't have tons to compare them to. I know that to my ears they are smoother than the Selenium D220ti's. They don't go as deep as, say, a DE250, and don't do much above 10k, but I can't really hear much up there so I'm not bothered. Overall I like them pretty well especially considering the price. Tinitus (RIP) did also, his recommendation of them swayed my decision.
Ingvar Alberg (sp?) has written much on liking the HF104's, some searching should turn up his posts. They have a few new ones that haven't hit the US yet. The HF 109 looks pretty promising on paper.
What I'm curious about is how to choose between Faital's drivers with radial phase plugs vs. annular plugs. They make a selection of each, and offer the top-line HF10xx in both radial and annular, and Ti and Ketone versions. How could one choose without trying both?
Bill
I've also been hearing good things on the Faital Ketone drivers, particularly their smooth presentation which is reflected in their posted specs.......which are on a horn that they seem not to sell given the coverage angles?? The newer units higher in price do seem to have less top octave droop on paper than the entry level models and are comparable to the DE250 in price. I'd like to get 1.4khz LR2 out of it if possible.
Lousy and Mayhem,
I am now very curious about all of these drivers, I will have to do some serious research on these drivers. I was not aware that they had both radial and axial phase plugs though this has been done for as far back as I can remember with Altec's Tangerine driver. My application will be for a 1" driver mounted on a 1.6khz horn of my own design. I have an actual application so this looks very interesting. Top end frequency response is very important to me and that is something I will look at closely.
I am now very curious about all of these drivers, I will have to do some serious research on these drivers. I was not aware that they had both radial and axial phase plugs though this has been done for as far back as I can remember with Altec's Tangerine driver. My application will be for a 1" driver mounted on a 1.6khz horn of my own design. I have an actual application so this looks very interesting. Top end frequency response is very important to me and that is something I will look at closely.
I found some testing done online from Voice Coil mag of both the radial and annular as well as comparisons of the Neo and Ferrite versions.
VOICE COIL TESTS FAITALPRO HF DRIVERS
Mayhem,
Thanks for that. To me the 107 looks like the nicer driver between the two. Would need some eq to flatten out the response but what driver doesn't.
Thanks for that. To me the 107 looks like the nicer driver between the two. Would need some eq to flatten out the response but what driver doesn't.
Hello, depending on the horn the Celestion CDX1425 - but it doesn't work so well below 2.5K 🙁 The TAD 2001 is another one but in my experience not worth the price
POOH,
I agree that the TAD was an excellent sounding driver before the prices went through the roof, I think I bought my original pairs for about $450.00, that won't even buy the replacement diaphragms today. I am curious about the current Be Neo drivers from Radian but in the past their ceramic magnet aluminum diaphragm drivers had some real problems and didn't sound all that nice and I don't think they currently have a Be driver that is a 1" exit size.
I agree that the TAD was an excellent sounding driver before the prices went through the roof, I think I bought my original pairs for about $450.00, that won't even buy the replacement diaphragms today. I am curious about the current Be Neo drivers from Radian but in the past their ceramic magnet aluminum diaphragm drivers had some real problems and didn't sound all that nice and I don't think they currently have a Be driver that is a 1" exit size.
As I understand it, there was a tweak needed to the Mylar surround that made the Radian diaphragms perform poorly until they implemented it in production. I've been holding off on buying the radian aluminum phragms for my JBL 2426h, but eventually will pull the trigger, as Al is much better than TI for sound, TI's only advantage is durability (as I'm sure you know).
Pooh didn't say so here but he's had all sorts of 1" drivers in and out of his system for years and absolutly loves the Celestion CDX 1425 but admits to finding it doesn't play below 2500hz well, (red this on another thread somewhere and got my interest). He has suggested another Celestion that goes down a bit further, I can't rmember but it may have been the 1446, it's graph looks nice. I agree those Faitals look good but the Celestions are cheap.