Soongsc,
" turned out that different cable lengths made the difference."
I can't believe that you are repeating this same impossible statement I have seen you make before. Scott Wurcer and JNeutron thoroughly debunked this statement in another thread long ago. What you say is impossible to believe! Stop telling this obviously incorrect statement. And the statement about not being able to put two identical speakers in parallel in a single enclosure is also so incorrect it is laughable.
" turned out that different cable lengths made the difference."
I can't believe that you are repeating this same impossible statement I have seen you make before. Scott Wurcer and JNeutron thoroughly debunked this statement in another thread long ago. What you say is impossible to believe! Stop telling this obviously incorrect statement. And the statement about not being able to put two identical speakers in parallel in a single enclosure is also so incorrect it is laughable.
Kindhornman, if your driver mass is high enough, the issue is not so significant. So I am sure most people working on large drivers may not notice. If you feel it is not an issue for you, fine. For me, after experiencing things that can be simply avoided, I just do it to remove such possibility in all future design work.
Some things you can theorize on, but in audio, it is still best just to try and see if you yourself hear the difference and find it necessary to stick with some criteria.
Some things you can theorize on, but in audio, it is still best just to try and see if you yourself hear the difference and find it necessary to stick with some criteria.
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My standard advice to students is that five times oversampling is a safe bet for generic ADC purposes.
So you spoke to Lynn, and he did not say anything about his speakers. Did this lead you to believe that he was taking a break from the project, or did Lynn tell you directly that he was not going to work on it for a period of time?
Just trying to figure out what happened to Lynn. Thanks.
Lynn emailed me to say he was taking a vacation from this thread, for an undetermined period of time. He said nothing in the email about his speakers. Lynn is a personal friend, so this sort of communication between us is not unusual. I thought it pertinent to provide the information to the participants of his thread because Lynn is a man of his word.
Actually Lynn, another forum member and myself concluded the same thing in this thread back some months ago. Simply put plane wave interaction between drivers causes issue. Lynn's Ariel is based on the same. How laughable is that?
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Let somebody put up ajustifiable argumentthat you cannot have twin speakers or is it a matching or a size problem. The physics is not a problem for perfect drivers in the same sealed or damped reflex. If the speakers are not specifically suited due to parameter variations and cone material that is another matter
Many designs are not "accurate", so subtle effects are neglected or uncritical. Parallel drivers of unmatched parameters will have less issue in low frequency. But remember that the Ariel is running very high in frequency.
Someone needs to check what was said. Two identical speakers running in the same enclosure and Soongsc could visually see them working differently just because the wire length was slightly different. Don't forget he said that this was corrected just by matching the wire length. Now someone prove this with any scientific proof, not mere nonsensical replies.
Nobody can prove that. And if somebody is smart enough, he wouldn't bother to search for one.
Jay,
I am not saying that there can not be an interaction between drivers, just that a slight change in wire length wouldn't have any real effects at the lengths we are talking about of feet or inches difference. The only thing that makes sense is that one of the drivers would need to have the phase reversed by accident. I don't think anyone could visually see any difference unless that was the case. And how would you acoustically measure a difference in two drivers operating in the same enclosure on the same plane with virtually identical measured response? Could you measure a difference even with two nearfield mics and looking for a difference of sums?
I am not saying that there can not be an interaction between drivers, just that a slight change in wire length wouldn't have any real effects at the lengths we are talking about of feet or inches difference. The only thing that makes sense is that one of the drivers would need to have the phase reversed by accident. I don't think anyone could visually see any difference unless that was the case. And how would you acoustically measure a difference in two drivers operating in the same enclosure on the same plane with virtually identical measured response? Could you measure a difference even with two nearfield mics and looking for a difference of sums?
Kindhornman,
Only soongsc who has answer to your question. Why would you ask? Are you in doubt? Otherwise assume a slip of tongue hehe.
Regarding paralleled midrange, well I'm not a fan of line array (eg Nola). Worse is McIntosh speakers (XR series). It's funny how big companies can mess up with speakers. Vienna Acoustics, a great name, but why the speakers didn't make it in the market? I suspected the proprietary cone material. Who wants to bring plastic into high end? But then I read stereophile measurement regarding Mozart grand. What, a dip null at Fc?? If that's true, that is even worse than the snake oil.
Only soongsc who has answer to your question. Why would you ask? Are you in doubt? Otherwise assume a slip of tongue hehe.
Regarding paralleled midrange, well I'm not a fan of line array (eg Nola). Worse is McIntosh speakers (XR series). It's funny how big companies can mess up with speakers. Vienna Acoustics, a great name, but why the speakers didn't make it in the market? I suspected the proprietary cone material. Who wants to bring plastic into high end? But then I read stereophile measurement regarding Mozart grand. What, a dip null at Fc?? If that's true, that is even worse than the snake oil.
Yes i think you can see it given different compliance of both drivers. But the cones cannot be all black. You need white next to black, such as the surround. Oh, expensive aka stiff cones are movement sensitive too.
a) no speakers are perfect
b) I disagree with the claim on the physics front. You're doubling the travelling wave interaction between drivers by putting the rears in the same acoustic space. (The front side is impossible to avoid).
Now while any effect will be many db down (depending on acoustic path taken, the efficiency of the speaker as a microphone and the reverse impedance of the crossover etc) we cannot dismiss it off hand.
A pathological example would be a sealed, u-shaped tube 1/4 or 1/2 wavelength long.
Back to the real world I note that Lynn O. spent time getting rid of "the generic MTM/ D'Appolito forwardness from the midrange drivers." when developing the Ariel (The Ariel, Part II) which involved introducing a resistive (ie lossy) element between the drivers and their shunting capacitor - dropping the Q of any driver-driver interaction
Is it necessary to get into the who is right or wrong thing? When somebody shares an experience or have an idea, it is fine to have a totally different experience. Technology is always evolves, and they normally start from only the persistent researchers and is generally ignored by the majority at first. The health industry is in just about the same mess as audio.
This is the speaker in which the wire length incident occurred.
What happened was while listening to music, everything seemed fine while the bass would breakup. I could not understand why, so like an audiophile, I just wales over to look at the drivers and found they were not moving together, yet not moving in reverse directions either. Both channels acted the same way. The only think to consider were the cable lengths and how they ran. So I rewired the shorter pair to have the same length as the longer ones, and routed them together to split from where the tweeter is. That corrected the problem. That is what happened. If you all want to go nuts trying to say how rediculouse it is, fine. Laughter is good for health anyway. Getting all emotionally negative over this is really not worth it.
This is the speaker in which the wire length incident occurred.
What happened was while listening to music, everything seemed fine while the bass would breakup. I could not understand why, so like an audiophile, I just wales over to look at the drivers and found they were not moving together, yet not moving in reverse directions either. Both channels acted the same way. The only think to consider were the cable lengths and how they ran. So I rewired the shorter pair to have the same length as the longer ones, and routed them together to split from where the tweeter is. That corrected the problem. That is what happened. If you all want to go nuts trying to say how rediculouse it is, fine. Laughter is good for health anyway. Getting all emotionally negative over this is really not worth it.
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