Have owned pretty well ALL Shures over the decades. They all worked, No arguement. But nothing to write home about either.. Adequate to task, no more, no less. On a Thorens 150 II.
Went thru a succession of Grados. Cleaning lady keot destroying the stylii.
And Fresh carts were same price ~ as replacement Needles.
Similar pricings applied to Shure needles as well.
These guys had a headstart on the Printer ink swindle.
Current Grado Black with an odd slide on mount, bought in 94 and 'shelved' since '96.
Went to resurrect the thing and found that the headshell wires had stuck them selves to the pins. Subsequently the cart pins pulled OFF ! Seems these are metal condoms crimped on over the actual Cart pins... Lovely!
Refitting and reconnection is proving iffy as there are capacitance issues from the crappy connections.
Making for some truly strange sound effects.. Bass as Thud, thud, thud.. No midrange. Happily Deoxit works! and the thing sounds good ..for about a Day!
Which is untenable.. frankly.
Soooo. Who makes a decently engineered /assembled Cart these days.. for less than foolish pricings?
As aside can one buy replacement Needles for a Shure? That are neither 6X the initial cost of the cartridge, Or not made by the peoples' Lucky Needle and Noodle Enterprise?
Went thru a succession of Grados. Cleaning lady keot destroying the stylii.
And Fresh carts were same price ~ as replacement Needles.
Similar pricings applied to Shure needles as well.
These guys had a headstart on the Printer ink swindle.
Current Grado Black with an odd slide on mount, bought in 94 and 'shelved' since '96.
Went to resurrect the thing and found that the headshell wires had stuck them selves to the pins. Subsequently the cart pins pulled OFF ! Seems these are metal condoms crimped on over the actual Cart pins... Lovely!
Refitting and reconnection is proving iffy as there are capacitance issues from the crappy connections.
Making for some truly strange sound effects.. Bass as Thud, thud, thud.. No midrange. Happily Deoxit works! and the thing sounds good ..for about a Day!
Which is untenable.. frankly.
Soooo. Who makes a decently engineered /assembled Cart these days.. for less than foolish pricings?
As aside can one buy replacement Needles for a Shure? That are neither 6X the initial cost of the cartridge, Or not made by the peoples' Lucky Needle and Noodle Enterprise?
Google "Jico SAS stylus" for info. Here's something to wet your appetite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgnW4NGOp28
jeff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgnW4NGOp28
jeff
Thank you for the input, it is appreciated
But $300+ for the needle? Unlikely
I'd buy a Denon.. Wayyy before that.
Restating that I've owned pretty well ALL the shures over the years.
Even their V15 at $125 proved as overpriced for the sound quality generated.
Simply not understanding their elevation to Great.. Now.
Selective memory/nostalgia?
But $300+ for the needle? Unlikely
I'd buy a Denon.. Wayyy before that.
Restating that I've owned pretty well ALL the shures over the years.
Even their V15 at $125 proved as overpriced for the sound quality generated.
Simply not understanding their elevation to Great.. Now.
Selective memory/nostalgia?
You can get a Denon high output mc for a pretty reasonable price.
As far as "reasonable" goes, there is no such thing in the cartridge world. Many years ago (back in the 80's) I worked at the now defunct Circuit City, which was an early big box electronics store. Their top end AT cart, which was the AT12 something, maybe Sa .. anyway, the cart sold for about $225US. The store cost, which employees could purchase items at cost, was only about $20US. The markup was staggering! Stereo cabinets... A teak wood stereo cabinet that sold for over $450, less than $100 store cost.
The markup on any cart is mind boggling, so when you say "reasonable".... HAHA! Different perspective I suppose. It's a rigged game.
As far as "reasonable" goes, there is no such thing in the cartridge world. Many years ago (back in the 80's) I worked at the now defunct Circuit City, which was an early big box electronics store. Their top end AT cart, which was the AT12 something, maybe Sa .. anyway, the cart sold for about $225US. The store cost, which employees could purchase items at cost, was only about $20US. The markup was staggering! Stereo cabinets... A teak wood stereo cabinet that sold for over $450, less than $100 store cost.
The markup on any cart is mind boggling, so when you say "reasonable".... HAHA! Different perspective I suppose. It's a rigged game.
There is the ED Saunders replacement stylus.
Shure Replacement Styli. World renown Ed Saunders stylus.
Shure Replacement Styli. World renown Ed Saunders stylus.
Hi,
Not really, bodies cost far less than the good styli.
Nowadays Grado have a very good line in swindling
their customers by charging loads for the bodies of
the more expensive cartridges which are barely
different to the bodies used for cheaper cartridges.
The Black is OK, but no great shakes IMO, though
it can suit certain budget systems extremely well.
(Discontinued NOS good Grado styli are an idea.)
YMMV but I like the Saunders Red Ed Elliptical ;
Ed Saunders Red Ed Cartridge
over the Black at less than half the price.
Hi-Fi Cartridge Reviews - Moving Magnet Cartridges
Hi-Fi Cartridge Reviews - Moving Iron Cartridges
rgds, sreten.
FWIW I've never rated Shures much. I like AT's generally,
the AT92E is the budget cartridge for TP4 or lower
mass arms, and the AT95E the budget cartridge for
higher mass standard arms with range of styli available.
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Wow! lotsa responses. Thank you all gentlemen.
Foolish pricings? Anything in the hundreds.
With ~ 200 Lps sequestered from my misspent youth, I don't need to Invest in the Ultimate.
Frankly I'd prefer to spend as little as reasonably possible.
Frugality can be an Art Form.
The 'lesser' Denon 103(?) seems a genuine contender.
I will definitely look at all the suggestions.. for those to be mentioned here, they must have endeared themselves in some way.
Agreed.. the Grados I've owned never impressed me in any way either..they simply became 'more' available than the previously ubiquitous Shures.
Low Mass High mass? No actual idea
I have a bought new entirely stockThorens 150mkll, albeit in 'as new' condition.
Ignorance can be bliss
Foolish pricings? Anything in the hundreds.
With ~ 200 Lps sequestered from my misspent youth, I don't need to Invest in the Ultimate.
Frankly I'd prefer to spend as little as reasonably possible.
Frugality can be an Art Form.
The 'lesser' Denon 103(?) seems a genuine contender.
I will definitely look at all the suggestions.. for those to be mentioned here, they must have endeared themselves in some way.
Agreed.. the Grados I've owned never impressed me in any way either..they simply became 'more' available than the previously ubiquitous Shures.
Low Mass High mass? No actual idea
I have a bought new entirely stockThorens 150mkll, albeit in 'as new' condition.
Ignorance can be bliss
Last edited:
Hi,
The stock TP13A arm is no great shakes, and
won't suit a Denon DL103. DL110 perhaps.
Grado 8MZ V Replacement Stylus. Worlds Largest Selection of Needles. 1-800-229-0644.
Is also a decent idea for the Black.
rgds, sreten.
The stock TP13A arm is no great shakes, and
won't suit a Denon DL103. DL110 perhaps.
Grado 8MZ V Replacement Stylus. Worlds Largest Selection of Needles. 1-800-229-0644.
Is also a decent idea for the Black.
rgds, sreten.
Ok.. I do have a Dual 1219 also stock.
But it's never demonstrated advantage over the Thorens.
Frankly the Grado is of Crap construction I'm not annoyed with it's sound so much as it's very poor assembly, using foolish connector Pins which are best described as Crimped on Gold (likely plated, albeit 1 micron thick) Condoms. Which are loose and giving all manner of headaches. Despite repeated efforts to re crimp the things effectively.
I REFUSE to buy yet More Grado... period.
Sorry.. I got the Denon numberings mixed. I'm after the one that works as a MM Likely the 110 then
AS for Mass issues: Perhaps I can assemble Nanook's $2 'arm'
Likely fun as well as an educational lark.
Beats the hell out of buying a $400 arm.. just to test for audible advantage.
On a slightly divergent topic: Lyn Olson has claimed (in that never ending thread of his) that a spherical/conical Stylus is FAR better than an elliptical one.
His view is that ellipticals just chew the hell out of record grooves.
When . less than perfectly setup.. religiously setup actually.
In his view, this is almost all of them.
The venerable Stanton Cart (with the wee ball and brush) and conical stylus is his suggestion.
Actually had one of those decades ago.
It had No audible issues.IIRC, but as it was borrowed, it inevitiably had to go back.
Question is: Conical (as per Olson) or elliptical Stylus?
But it's never demonstrated advantage over the Thorens.
Frankly the Grado is of Crap construction I'm not annoyed with it's sound so much as it's very poor assembly, using foolish connector Pins which are best described as Crimped on Gold (likely plated, albeit 1 micron thick) Condoms. Which are loose and giving all manner of headaches. Despite repeated efforts to re crimp the things effectively.
I REFUSE to buy yet More Grado... period.
Sorry.. I got the Denon numberings mixed. I'm after the one that works as a MM Likely the 110 then
AS for Mass issues: Perhaps I can assemble Nanook's $2 'arm'
Likely fun as well as an educational lark.
Beats the hell out of buying a $400 arm.. just to test for audible advantage.
On a slightly divergent topic: Lyn Olson has claimed (in that never ending thread of his) that a spherical/conical Stylus is FAR better than an elliptical one.
His view is that ellipticals just chew the hell out of record grooves.
When . less than perfectly setup.. religiously setup actually.
In his view, this is almost all of them.
The venerable Stanton Cart (with the wee ball and brush) and conical stylus is his suggestion.
Actually had one of those decades ago.
It had No audible issues.IIRC, but as it was borrowed, it inevitiably had to go back.
Question is: Conical (as per Olson) or elliptical Stylus?
Last edited:
A strange suggestion is the Shure M44-7 . In the right pick up arm ( SME 5 ) it is a remarkable cartridge . This probably is due to having 10 mV output . I think Douglas Self calculated that a cartridge like it would have the greatest dynamic range ( 69 dB from memory , any MC less due to hiss ) . Not unlike a DL103 or Decca London sonically . The conical stylus being common to 103 and 44-7 . This was discovered by accident as we used the 78 version for CD transcription ( Garrard 301 , special PSU ) .
On paper the 44-7 stereo separation is modest . In real life it is above the point where the listening room is spoiling it more .
The transcription pre amp we used was Leak Varislope with a 2 x 2 transistor buffer and high grade PSU . The only work done to the Leak being choosing the best EF 86 valves from the junk box ( Mullard ) . The pre amp is just two valves per channel . It loves the Shure as it gets everything in the right zone ( Pentode with EQ + shunt feedback ) . It has all the obscure EQ's for 78 transcription . These make a big difference . It is not about tonality . More it is about snapping into focus . Un-played 78's can sound remarkable . Even ones dating back to 1927 or further . 1938 especially ( Duke Ellington , direct cut ) . Some 78 stampers going to 30 kHz , the shellac unable to transfer that .
From this I designed an op amp pre amp that would cope with the 44-7 output . This is mostly about getting the gain just right .
People often say a particular arm is good or bad due to it's mechanical build . This is partially true . Loose anything , be it bearings or fittings is not the best start . I had a Schroeder carbon-fibre arm to play with . I strongly disliked it's sound ( flaccid ) . As I have great respect for his arms ( I have one ) , I added some Blutak to the mid point to increase the mass . Not only did it change the sound I would say it transformed the sound . The point is as a universal arm the carbon-fibre Schroeder would suit very well . A TP 13 might well need a bit of mass to suit the DL 103 . I have in the loft a TP13 DL 110 , it is a splendid combo . Slightly bass light and very OK . I didn't have any 2 mm screws so used Blutak as did Garrot Brothers . Seems to work well and still there years later .
One piece of information about Shure . The loading is very tricky with Shure . The old 68 K suits it better . 1M suggested as ideal . One can then use passive 75 uS EQ as the first stage . It can be tweaked to suit the set up . A massive free lunch as it is a tone control we must have . Then we can tweak it for the many non standard EQ discs if we choose . 50 uS is very common ( DMM is said to be 50 uS ) . Old mono is 100 uS . My one piece off advice is the 3180/318 uS should be active with a gain of 16 at 1 kHz . The input a passive design with gain . Do that gain by ear . 4 would be about right for M44-7 ( 4 x 16 ) assuming 15 V rails .
I have always wanted to fit a line contact stylus like Shibata to the 44-7 . With luck this would maintain the output as it is like an ideal conical-elliptical hybrid . Expert styli in Asford UK have something like that .
M3D was a great Shure PU . As you spend more money I like them less . I suspect recent ones outperform the mass produced ones of the 1970's .
On paper the 44-7 stereo separation is modest . In real life it is above the point where the listening room is spoiling it more .
The transcription pre amp we used was Leak Varislope with a 2 x 2 transistor buffer and high grade PSU . The only work done to the Leak being choosing the best EF 86 valves from the junk box ( Mullard ) . The pre amp is just two valves per channel . It loves the Shure as it gets everything in the right zone ( Pentode with EQ + shunt feedback ) . It has all the obscure EQ's for 78 transcription . These make a big difference . It is not about tonality . More it is about snapping into focus . Un-played 78's can sound remarkable . Even ones dating back to 1927 or further . 1938 especially ( Duke Ellington , direct cut ) . Some 78 stampers going to 30 kHz , the shellac unable to transfer that .
From this I designed an op amp pre amp that would cope with the 44-7 output . This is mostly about getting the gain just right .
People often say a particular arm is good or bad due to it's mechanical build . This is partially true . Loose anything , be it bearings or fittings is not the best start . I had a Schroeder carbon-fibre arm to play with . I strongly disliked it's sound ( flaccid ) . As I have great respect for his arms ( I have one ) , I added some Blutak to the mid point to increase the mass . Not only did it change the sound I would say it transformed the sound . The point is as a universal arm the carbon-fibre Schroeder would suit very well . A TP 13 might well need a bit of mass to suit the DL 103 . I have in the loft a TP13 DL 110 , it is a splendid combo . Slightly bass light and very OK . I didn't have any 2 mm screws so used Blutak as did Garrot Brothers . Seems to work well and still there years later .
One piece of information about Shure . The loading is very tricky with Shure . The old 68 K suits it better . 1M suggested as ideal . One can then use passive 75 uS EQ as the first stage . It can be tweaked to suit the set up . A massive free lunch as it is a tone control we must have . Then we can tweak it for the many non standard EQ discs if we choose . 50 uS is very common ( DMM is said to be 50 uS ) . Old mono is 100 uS . My one piece off advice is the 3180/318 uS should be active with a gain of 16 at 1 kHz . The input a passive design with gain . Do that gain by ear . 4 would be about right for M44-7 ( 4 x 16 ) assuming 15 V rails .
I have always wanted to fit a line contact stylus like Shibata to the 44-7 . With luck this would maintain the output as it is like an ideal conical-elliptical hybrid . Expert styli in Asford UK have something like that .
M3D was a great Shure PU . As you spend more money I like them less . I suspect recent ones outperform the mass produced ones of the 1970's .
Hi Nigel,
If you like a Shure M3D, try an Elac STS 300D or 310D. It's equipped with a 13µm(!) spherical stylus. Runs circles around the Shure which is based on the Elac patent.
As for carbon fibre as a material for armwands, - I totally concur. I strongly dislike it. But there is the occasional customer who thinks it is superior to wood... and I gave up trying to proselytize anyone a long time ago
Have a great weekend!
Frank
If you like a Shure M3D, try an Elac STS 300D or 310D. It's equipped with a 13µm(!) spherical stylus. Runs circles around the Shure which is based on the Elac patent.
As for carbon fibre as a material for armwands, - I totally concur. I strongly dislike it. But there is the occasional customer who thinks it is superior to wood... and I gave up trying to proselytize anyone a long time ago
Have a great weekend!
Frank
I would 101% believe that . Clear Audio use ( used ? ) a basic Philips as the starting point . Not bad at all .
Carbon Fibre is a Bete Noir of mine . However a certain Martina friend of mine was being too matter of fact about it . It was so wonderful to see her eat her words as the mass was added . I must say it is a totally wonderful arm . Lyra Helikon CF Schroeder and Tracy Chapman still is burnt into my memory . At the time using a Black Cube preamp .
I really must get a cheap flight to Berlin and have some ice cream . Please tell me Frank it is still as good as I remember ?
Now off to do some work . You too have a good weekend .
PS . I will be using my Schroeder with a GL 88 soon . The certain Martina having my 401 .
Carbon Fibre is a Bete Noir of mine . However a certain Martina friend of mine was being too matter of fact about it . It was so wonderful to see her eat her words as the mass was added . I must say it is a totally wonderful arm . Lyra Helikon CF Schroeder and Tracy Chapman still is burnt into my memory . At the time using a Black Cube preamp .
I really must get a cheap flight to Berlin and have some ice cream . Please tell me Frank it is still as good as I remember ?
Now off to do some work . You too have a good weekend .
PS . I will be using my Schroeder with a GL 88 soon . The certain Martina having my 401 .
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