In theory yea. My electronics guy is (very slowly) working on a prototype of such an amp.
dave
as it is, with voltage drive, 12LTA would probably require a Karlson coupler with around 2.5 cubic feet (total) rear chamber to work well. 12LTA needs a stronger motor to shine in a K12 - still in a K12 it did far better than an AN10 on Danley's Harley file - the reflex lost all control and excursion became chaotic. My coaxial with 80 and 109 ounce magnets do subjectively better on transients than 12LTA. A Super 12LTA would be welcome me.
Wow,
Lots of playing about from Legis while I have been other wise engaged and internet-less.
Last time I looked at this thread it had got to the stage of placing 'foam' blocks betwixt the two cones, some thing which I have tried in place of the fluff...... and with fluff..... which I also liked.
I also tried this mod with and without my phase plugs, with and without the felt socks and with the screws in the backs of the plugs 'wound out' in increments to provide more of an air gap...... I noted no change with the spacing increase.
I will try the foam block damping 'drekly' (Cornish saying for 'any time from now till then') and hear what happens - but then I do have a second pair of shiny new 12lta's and a 'special import' from the USA of 8 tubes of Zig two way glue but still remain flummoxed by the EnAble tap test, so mine still remain spot-less.
Maybe I've been listening to my 12lta's in P10 EmKens long enough - about 12 months - to 'hear round' the flaws and accept them for what they are..... 'Civilised PA speakers'.
They do beam more than anything else I've listened to - some thing I notice when they return home from parties, along with a sense of freeing up and then stiffening up after a damn good thrashing.
I still maintain they are 'good fun', un-breakable (almost) and interesting to listen to.... Just gotta get round to building some form of Zen amp - ACA most likely as JKRO reported even better sounds issuing forth (I have a suitable chassis with sinks for an ACA, else it would be a Zen V4).
Lots of playing about from Legis while I have been other wise engaged and internet-less.
Last time I looked at this thread it had got to the stage of placing 'foam' blocks betwixt the two cones, some thing which I have tried in place of the fluff...... and with fluff..... which I also liked.
I also tried this mod with and without my phase plugs, with and without the felt socks and with the screws in the backs of the plugs 'wound out' in increments to provide more of an air gap...... I noted no change with the spacing increase.
I will try the foam block damping 'drekly' (Cornish saying for 'any time from now till then') and hear what happens - but then I do have a second pair of shiny new 12lta's and a 'special import' from the USA of 8 tubes of Zig two way glue but still remain flummoxed by the EnAble tap test, so mine still remain spot-less.
Maybe I've been listening to my 12lta's in P10 EmKens long enough - about 12 months - to 'hear round' the flaws and accept them for what they are..... 'Civilised PA speakers'.
They do beam more than anything else I've listened to - some thing I notice when they return home from parties, along with a sense of freeing up and then stiffening up after a damn good thrashing.
I still maintain they are 'good fun', un-breakable (almost) and interesting to listen to.... Just gotta get round to building some form of Zen amp - ACA most likely as JKRO reported even better sounds issuing forth (I have a suitable chassis with sinks for an ACA, else it would be a Zen V4).
Eminence Beta 12-LTA
Friend
You cut paper inside the dustcap or removed it completely?
I want modify mine, too.
I like alnico speakers, but this Eminence is nice.🙂
Thanks,
Aldovan
Friend
You cut paper inside the dustcap or removed it completely?
I want modify mine, too.
I like alnico speakers, but this Eminence is nice.🙂
Thanks,
Aldovan
I cut the paper as close to the edge as possible. It's easy if you have a sharp knife and go slow. You will be done in less than 10 minutes.
Zilla
Zilla
I can't seem to live with less than a 12", even better when crossed at 100hz.
Something to do with moving the air better in the midrange (I call 100-400hz), especially male voices and fundamental of most voice and instrument tones.
But I'm in a big room (large letter L shaped).
If it had a smaller, more vertical whizzer, and I think I'd want to try the 12lta's.
Norman
Something to do with moving the air better in the midrange (I call 100-400hz), especially male voices and fundamental of most voice and instrument tones.
But I'm in a big room (large letter L shaped).
If it had a smaller, more vertical whizzer, and I think I'd want to try the 12lta's.
Norman
I'm with you Norman. The 12" diameter creates a larger and more realistic sense of scale to the music. I love my 12lta's but since moving into a smaller space I broke out the little drivers in my collection, an 8" TB 1808 and a 6" Fostex 168Z. They'll do.
The 168z goes deeper in a smaller (ported) box than the 1808 (sealed). The 168z has a clear sound. The 1808 is crystal clear. Neither is perfect and both have a distinct 'sound' but I believe with bass support the 1808 has more potential.
Both are less veiled than the 12lta but neither has the same visceral impact. Pick your poison and enjoy!
Both are less veiled than the 12lta but neither has the same visceral impact. Pick your poison and enjoy!
I've never heard 12LTA have impact - despite its large xmax figure, the overhang remains at 0.08" - I think that's why its wimpy compared to Eminence's strong motor coaxial despite having similar sensitivity. The motor may be compressing.
something like this box would have a little impact
something like this box would have a little impact
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
nothing against 12lta for value (especially at $39.95 each for my last pair) but I've been game for years to join in a group buy in an attempt to make a better (for some use) version - maybe 54oz (might not be enough motor-?)->80oz magnet slug - I've four or five pairs of custom EM 12CX with slug weight between 54 and 109oz. 80oz slugs seem to be a happy medium. Going to coax can be a better compromise than "fullrange" partly due to power response above a point but this is a FR forum 😀
here's a custom Eminence 12cx - its moving mass is rather high at ~51 grams and a lot of that is due to the 4" coil which has significant overhang - but it has some motor to compensate - still its very quiet compared to a 12pe32 and perhaps a bit less sensitive than the defunct Eminence - Martin 1114.
does it look like it could compete with the mighty 12lta?
here's a custom Eminence 12cx - its moving mass is rather high at ~51 grams and a lot of that is due to the 4" coil which has significant overhang - but it has some motor to compensate - still its very quiet compared to a 12pe32 and perhaps a bit less sensitive than the defunct Eminence - Martin 1114.
does it look like it could compete with the mighty 12lta?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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on the weak side, here is a custom EM 12cx ordered by a former president of Cetec-Gauss and its magnet slug at only 54 ounces is half the weight of the TSG 12cx above. The weak motor was chosen for smoothness and to work in a sealed box. It also had a custom cone to make it smoother than Beta12cx.
is there a forum for CX?
1114 is one of my fave CX - which I had bought a spare pair when they were still made
is there a forum for CX?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
1114 is one of my fave CX - which I had bought a spare pair when they were still made
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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We could use a new version of the hammer dynamics 12 (but a smaller whizzer please).
Like the b102, weaker motor (qts) lost high end in your graphs.
graph - old B102 vs new B102 Eminence - TalkBass Forums
I think I read that a 1.5" coil on a 12" would go higher than a 2" coil.
Norman
Like the b102, weaker motor (qts) lost high end in your graphs.
graph - old B102 vs new B102 Eminence - TalkBass Forums
I think I read that a 1.5" coil on a 12" would go higher than a 2" coil.
Norman
a modified guitar speaker could have a 1.75" coil - Cannabis Rex has a decent midrange but a paper surround. For a coaxial woofer it would be nice if B&C made a cx version of 12pe32 -lol
AN10 sounded and behaved better in a Karlson than direct radiator - it was too rough - even their regular super 8 with whizzer is too rough - I think the new whizzerless one might still "bark" - its a miracle any FR or coax speaker halfway works
54 oz slug on the CX above was too weak for a Karlson coupler - 80oz with a 2.5" edgewound aluminum coil was a good compromise. Xmax by overhand on 1114 wasn't great but putting in a fudge factor gave it pretty well. In a little Karlson a 12 should be able to take 200 watt peaks on drums and not exceed 1/4" peak to peak excursion.
if we could get something more exciting than a Hammer and retain enough smoothness to play nice
AN10 sounded and behaved better in a Karlson than direct radiator - it was too rough - even their regular super 8 with whizzer is too rough - I think the new whizzerless one might still "bark" - its a miracle any FR or coax speaker halfway works
54 oz slug on the CX above was too weak for a Karlson coupler - 80oz with a 2.5" edgewound aluminum coil was a good compromise. Xmax by overhand on 1114 wasn't great but putting in a fudge factor gave it pretty well. In a little Karlson a 12 should be able to take 200 watt peaks on drums and not exceed 1/4" peak to peak excursion.
if we could get something more exciting than a Hammer and retain enough smoothness to play nice
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So......
Any one actually tried the felt on the cone or have we gone totally off topic with drivers that only exist on paper / in head / one off examples that only one person can listen to?
I have - am gathering my thoughts to try and put things to word in a meaningful way.
Any one actually tried the felt on the cone or have we gone totally off topic with drivers that only exist on paper / in head / one off examples that only one person can listen to?
I have - am gathering my thoughts to try and put things to word in a meaningful way.
it would be interesting to put a felt disk on 12LTA's flat dust cap then measure and listen. The pick of helper tweeter will have a large influence. Bastanis used little felt furniture pads on his 12' wideband. If not for some nasty chest pains from costochrodritis and atrophied shoulders, I would make an adapter board and mount 12LTA into the classic Karlson K15 which probably would maximize its usability and power vs pipe and MLTL. A K-tube helper tweeter could be employed or just use a slot tweeter like the old Selenium 324 and 320 phenolic - those are also nice with direct radiator setups and imo more natural in timbre than some of the titanium bullet/ring radiator tweeters. I mention the Karlson quite a bit as find them to have virtue - I've owned quite a bit of audio stuff in the last ~ 50 years including planars/ESL - custom tube stuff, my own tube stuff, good TT, good DAC so probably am as picky as most if not more so.
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Well, I do have a second pair of 12lta's that are nib, next time my EmKens go partying I could swap them for the ones I run now (phase plugs, basket damping etc) to loosen them up..... I'd have to dig out my ear defenders and use ear plugs as they really do sound that nasty to me.
Then stick some felt on't dust cap and listen - no measuring here other than my ears 🙂
You are correct re 'Slam' - 12lta don't do slam, no kick in the chest from drums etc, but if I want that, I go listen to live music.
I whole heartedly agree with tweeter choice. I have Fostex FT17h, have run them on and off with the result that they set my hair on end in a Bad way, so I run some Wharfdale 1" fabric domes that came from some little towers.
They add the smallest amount of top end, barely perceptible. I can quite happily run without though.
My lta's have 3 felt patches that are 15mm x 15mm of an unmeasured weight spaced @ 120deg, I 'patched' a-la Legis initially, then worked backwards.
Much reading of BudP's EnAble thread over many months gave me a Eurika moment, If the outer EnAble ring affects the high F's, then wouldn't 'stuff' stuck to the outer edge of the cone do the same thing?
Seems like it does! (for me)
A full dose of 'Legis', to my ears, flattened out all the wibbles in the graph, it made the driver sound smoother over all but there was something that really grated to the point of wanting to take the EmKen's out side and burn them.
They lost their impact / dynamic 'attitude' - GM and JKRO likened them to a muscle car, with all the felt on them, they became a 68 'Stang with a Nissan Micra engine, no rumble of 8 pots, just an annoying whining over stressed 1000cc 4 pot.
The Karlson enclose/s look fascinating (as do the 'K' tweeter tubes - I Will be having a dabble with those, so watch 'A' space🙂 ) and I have heard a pair a fair while ago in a school hall - dim memory - sounded far better than some of the other noise making 'boxes' I've heard since.
The flexibility of the design makes me wonder why we bother building conventional boxes, they are on my 'maybe build' list.......
I feel for you not being able to do stuff freddi, I recently got knocked of my bicycle by a drugged up driver who 'didnt' see me - funny how a driver near 200yrds away saw me dressed in flo yellow kit. I now have a badly damaged shoulder, trapped nerves all over the place and there's still some gravel in the mix. I'm not allowed (and cant without lots of pain) carry a pint of milk 1/2 mile from the shop.
I didn't mean any offence with my last post, some times I feel that threads need grabbing by the scruff of the neck, shaken a lil so they can re-gain some focus, nothing more or less.
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