Rauch (James) has some 2.7uF Hovland Musicaps for $12 a piece I was thinking about snagging but don't have the spare cash right now. Go for it if you want another pair to test. I bought the pair of 2.7uF Auricaps from him and they're in excellent condition for the price he was selling them 
Here's the thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=765802#post765802
Here's the thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=765802#post765802
I don't think I could foot the bill otherwise! Sorry for that awful pun.
This is VERY preliminary, but I just switched out the Pana FC electrolytics in the "modded output filter" amp for the 2.7uF Sonicaps and there is already a detectable difference. Small details are more noticeable and sound sources sound more distinct. I listened to the same song right after changing them out. And this was on an mp3 through my computer's sound output Promising. Neither pairs of caps are broken in either.
Promising. Neither pairs of caps are broken in either.
Hi,
I'll try to add some of my experience as I've tried so far 4 different input caps for the Amp3. Following a suggestion by Mickael I used a 4 pole 3 way switch to change with a single button both caps in in the circuit at the same time. I wired the mute button with a bipolar switch to mute the amp while changing the input cap.
Caps that I've tried:
. the original eletrolytic caps from the amp3 kit
. 2uf auricaps
. 2.2uf russian paper in oil NOS bought on ebay (10 for 15 euros)
. 2.2uf BG-C blackgate
I have also on hand 2x1uf BG-N in opposite configuration for each channel, but they are not fully broken in and weren't compared to the other caps.
Unfortunately, because of young children going around and hectic schedule for my job, I hadn't time to spend as much time as I would on testing the various caps with different discs. Tests were done using a AH! njoe tjoeb CD player with upsampler and (as you may not know) a tube output stage, connected directly through a 50k stepped attenuator, then to kef Q3 speakers.
A small note: before using a switch, I tried these caps by soldering and desoldering them on my tweaked t-amp ("a la Mardis") and on my amp3 and did found significant difference in terms of bass quality, amount of details and easiness of the highs between the caps. Yet, with the switch setup all these differences were not that clear !! Maybe the switch (a NOS alps) is not of very high quality and the added length of cable (not shielded) is ruining everything. Maybe these is purely psychoacoustics...I don't really know, I'm a complete DIY newbie.
Anyway, my preffered ones are the Auricaps and the paper in oil for their smooth presentation. The electolytics bettered the paper in oil in the bass department (the PIO seemed sluggish and restrained), but overall the music was less involving and the highs too harsh. Yet they could be better for pop music, but for Jazz and Classic I definitely prefer the Auricap or the PIO. The Auricap are slightly better in the bass than the PIO, but the PIO have such a fleshed out medium that I cannot really choose...
Also spatialization was slightly different for each cap, though I couldn't tell which one was better.
Now, as I said, with the switch the differences were subtle to the point that I wasn't able to clearly distinguish the caps during a blind test (except the difference between eletrolytics and others). I'd like to spend more time on this (including improving cabling) and test the BG-N supercap but that won't be probably before next year...
I'll try to add some of my experience as I've tried so far 4 different input caps for the Amp3. Following a suggestion by Mickael I used a 4 pole 3 way switch to change with a single button both caps in in the circuit at the same time. I wired the mute button with a bipolar switch to mute the amp while changing the input cap.
Caps that I've tried:
. the original eletrolytic caps from the amp3 kit
. 2uf auricaps
. 2.2uf russian paper in oil NOS bought on ebay (10 for 15 euros)
. 2.2uf BG-C blackgate
I have also on hand 2x1uf BG-N in opposite configuration for each channel, but they are not fully broken in and weren't compared to the other caps.
Unfortunately, because of young children going around and hectic schedule for my job, I hadn't time to spend as much time as I would on testing the various caps with different discs. Tests were done using a AH! njoe tjoeb CD player with upsampler and (as you may not know) a tube output stage, connected directly through a 50k stepped attenuator, then to kef Q3 speakers.
A small note: before using a switch, I tried these caps by soldering and desoldering them on my tweaked t-amp ("a la Mardis") and on my amp3 and did found significant difference in terms of bass quality, amount of details and easiness of the highs between the caps. Yet, with the switch setup all these differences were not that clear !! Maybe the switch (a NOS alps) is not of very high quality and the added length of cable (not shielded) is ruining everything. Maybe these is purely psychoacoustics...I don't really know, I'm a complete DIY newbie.
Anyway, my preffered ones are the Auricaps and the paper in oil for their smooth presentation. The electolytics bettered the paper in oil in the bass department (the PIO seemed sluggish and restrained), but overall the music was less involving and the highs too harsh. Yet they could be better for pop music, but for Jazz and Classic I definitely prefer the Auricap or the PIO. The Auricap are slightly better in the bass than the PIO, but the PIO have such a fleshed out medium that I cannot really choose...
Also spatialization was slightly different for each cap, though I couldn't tell which one was better.
Now, as I said, with the switch the differences were subtle to the point that I wasn't able to clearly distinguish the caps during a blind test (except the difference between eletrolytics and others). I'd like to spend more time on this (including improving cabling) and test the BG-N supercap but that won't be probably before next year...
Salut Ledim! Great post!
This is the kind of testing we need more of. All caps have a slightly different sound; it is great to be able to directly test this.
I remember emailing you the test circuit. Did you mange to use the full setup, so that both ends of the caps are switched? I was planning my own test, and thought just switching one end of the cap might be "OK". But maybe not, it would still leave the others connected, though not really inline. Hmmm...
Send me another email, maybe we can work together to develop the best testing circuit. Or perhaps it can be done here on the forum, so that others can help.
The "Ideal" cap would not change the sound at all. But how do we find it? As the Tripath chip must have a DC blocking cap inline, we can only compare cap to cap, never cap to wire.
So then we get down to which cap sounds "best". Nothing in the system is perfect, so the imperfection of the coupling cap can help smooth off the rough edges elsewhere. That's were the "Synergy" comes into Hi-Fi design. Black Magic? Maybe.
BTW, I'd love to buy 2 of those Russian caps from you. I'm a big fan of Russian gear.
This is the kind of testing we need more of. All caps have a slightly different sound; it is great to be able to directly test this.
I remember emailing you the test circuit. Did you mange to use the full setup, so that both ends of the caps are switched? I was planning my own test, and thought just switching one end of the cap might be "OK". But maybe not, it would still leave the others connected, though not really inline. Hmmm...
Send me another email, maybe we can work together to develop the best testing circuit. Or perhaps it can be done here on the forum, so that others can help.
The "Ideal" cap would not change the sound at all. But how do we find it? As the Tripath chip must have a DC blocking cap inline, we can only compare cap to cap, never cap to wire.
So then we get down to which cap sounds "best". Nothing in the system is perfect, so the imperfection of the coupling cap can help smooth off the rough edges elsewhere. That's were the "Synergy" comes into Hi-Fi design. Black Magic? Maybe.
BTW, I'd love to buy 2 of those Russian caps from you. I'm a big fan of Russian gear.
Bonjour a tous.
For once we have 2 french speaking person on the same thread, j'en profite.
So,
We could complicate things even further by using a bypass cap,
or even better, use a switch to select between different bypass cap.
That way we will get two variables to play with,
the main input caps plus the bypass caps.
Thus We get more combinations, the aim is to get the perfect blend of different cap flavors.
Perhaps the bypass cap is not a good idea but this cannot be confirmed without trying first.
I'm not sure all this makes any sense though.
For once we have 2 french speaking person on the same thread, j'en profite.
So,
We could complicate things even further by using a bypass cap,
or even better, use a switch to select between different bypass cap.
That way we will get two variables to play with,
the main input caps plus the bypass caps.
Thus We get more combinations, the aim is to get the perfect blend of different cap flavors.
Perhaps the bypass cap is not a good idea but this cannot be confirmed without trying first.
I'm not sure all this makes any sense though.
I've always got the impression that whenever there is a constant DC to block, you always get better bass with with eletrolytics. It would be interesting in understanding why they invented the eletrolytics. With other caps, it seems that a DC will cause the cap to be charged contantly therefore it's characteristics change in some way.
panomaniac said:
Yes, both ends of the caps are switched on the 2 channels. I'll try to post a simple schematic of the switch ASAP.
As for the Russian caps, unfortunately I've sold the other ones to french DIYer when we did a group buy of auricaps. The Ukrainian guy selling them on ebay was really kind and the delivery was fast with item well packed:
http://cgi.ebay.fr/2-2-uF-400-V-PIO...7567324357QQcategoryZ4662QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I'm plugging back the blackgate super E caps to compare with the auricaps and PIO.
I forgot to tell that I also tried some Audyn-CAP MKP-QS a couple of months ago, and that was really bad (I don't remember why, but there was no comparison with the PIO...so I dumped them).
I just finished my modified t-amp project and i am quite pleased with the results: I desoldered c3 and c4 and replaced with tantalum electrolytics of 2.2uF (because they fit so nicely). I did one channel first and i did a double blind test with my father. We both thought it was sounding more alive and there was more "going on" on the modified channel. I didn't even try my foil caps, because the sound was very good (at least with those medium speakers) and i was kind of in a rush.
The next part of the project will be a posh Alps pot and perhaps i will try those foil caps also. Now my question to you pros: Why are those tantalum caps supposed to be so bad? Is it worth putting in those metallized polyester (WIMA)-caps?
That was a very fun project and i am happy to get any input of you!
The next part of the project will be a posh Alps pot and perhaps i will try those foil caps also. Now my question to you pros: Why are those tantalum caps supposed to be so bad? Is it worth putting in those metallized polyester (WIMA)-caps?
That was a very fun project and i am happy to get any input of you!
nilsomat said:
I don't know what it is about them, but they are thought to sound very bad. I've never tried them in the signal path.
On the other hand, years ago I used some top quality tantalum resistors that were very nice.
You won't be sorry with the film caps. But they are big. Instead of the Wimas you might look at Solen or Jantzen. Or if you are made of money, Mundorf.
Let us know how your project goes.
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