If your working with limited space and want very good sq and easy to build enclosure(sealed)go with the RE AUDIO,SE Model
I've used the DD,but was not impressed,with pricing,availability,customer service,and performance
But the Bottom line is Performance.The DD's in my oppion only performed very well in SPL oriented enclosures.Ported w/high tuning hz.and undamped enclosures.Just my opinnon.
Stay away from mass marketed products
Kicker has gone to hell,ever since the pyle buyout.
I've used the DD,but was not impressed,with pricing,availability,customer service,and performance
But the Bottom line is Performance.The DD's in my oppion only performed very well in SPL oriented enclosures.Ported w/high tuning hz.and undamped enclosures.Just my opinnon.
Stay away from mass marketed products
Kicker has gone to hell,ever since the pyle buyout.
pyle was first a american speaker manufacture much like eminence.They supplied parts and speakers for other manufactures. Kicker,Impact,Blues just to name a few.Look at the cones on the original C-10,12,15 from Kicker.Kicker had to make a switch over when there supplier was sold. Pyle also made decent amps also.
amc32 said:
Ya back in the day! I had four Pyle 15's new purple ones in a sealed enclosure on a 400W Sherwood amp, was loud as hell and in my delivery truck! I miss the old days when things were simpler, nobody had a 1000w system and Jensen was decent, remember Pyramid EQs? Ok let me get off the waaaay back machine lOl. Polo.
The old pyles were killer, I remember those! The magnets barely fit in the cutout there were so big around, and they had heavy pulp cones...wish I had some still they were awesome IB. They might have been pyle drivers, the ones in the center of the photos I posted in the old school amp thread are pyle pros from around '90 I think. RF made some nice ones too. I can get some eminence 15 from a guy, don't know what they are but are new. Guy has some 10s and they are nasty looking things for sure with big cast baskets and large motors. Yeah we used to run 300w amps on 10s back then and they put out pretty good....lot of new subs you really have to feed them some power to get them moving.
I do some.EWorkshop1708 said:Anyone have experience with the Digital Designs subs? I've seen a lot of them on Youtube being abused, and even one was plugged into 120V mains several times and would not die!
If I will get a chanse I will try something like REVO from Audiopulse(TC sounds), the seem to be very good, maybe I will like them even more then DDs
To say what is the best is subjective.Certain perameters must be in place.Are we judging for a woofer to take abuse or play music.Value or Comromise.
IMO Atomic or SJA Industries,is a woofer manufacture they can custom build anything you want,with only a few limitations.There home brand Atomic is quite good also.Used them several times in the past.I personally prefer some the older stuff,watch out for the cup spiders.
Dont bother with the amps.
IMO Atomic or SJA Industries,is a woofer manufacture they can custom build anything you want,with only a few limitations.There home brand Atomic is quite good also.Used them several times in the past.I personally prefer some the older stuff,watch out for the cup spiders.
Dont bother with the amps.
Safe_Cracker [/i][B]Agreed ^^^ Hence said:
I thought that I had stated that they are intended for music, not SPL, in a tapped horn, which in itself determines quite a few necessary parameter values, but for now, I just want to have some help sorting the good woofers from the bad. Later it will be time for parameter matching.
What is it with the cup spiders, that's a new term for me.
i stopped buying expensive subs a long time ago and started modifying cheaper subs that would make good donors.
youd be surprised at how little a difference there is between an expensive one and a cheap one.
apart from the most exotic steel used in the top and bottom plates such as permendur, actually the cheaper grade metals have a better permeability than the higher grade, the cheaper ones have a lower carbon content.
most of the difference is in the soft parts such as the spiders, cone and tinsels, alot of cheap subs can simply have their spiders replaced and it will perform twice as good, use 12 gauge speaker wires as opposed to tinsels and you just gained some efficiency, with the exception of tinsels that are already thick.
for voice coils, theres the round copper wire coils and the flatwound copper clad alumnium coils. Industry standards for round copper are 40mm and 50mm winding heights for a 3" wide coil.
The shorter coil being more efficient. The thinner the wire the more efficient it will be, but at the loss of high power handling, but not critical if not exceeding 1500 watt sinewaves for over 15 minutes.
what i usually look for in a good donor sub is:
1. voice coil diameter
2. cooling = more power handling
3.magnet width = more flux density,
5.spider width, allows more excursion, the ridges also play an important role in xmax and cone control.
6.spider material - some are paper some are cloth, the cloth ones cant take much power...you can tear the paper with your hands but not cloth...cloth strands are usually thicker.
7.thickness of top plate - allows more force upon the coil, but the magnet has to be sufficient also.
8. cone thickness - if exceeding 1000 watts
9. polepiece, a chamfered pole piece will allow better airflow, and better efficiency.
10. from my experiences, subs assembled with cyanoacryate are louder than those assembled with epoxy or mastic latex, with the exception of ceramic epoxy.
i tried a 'wicked one' before and it was a waste of time and wood, for the same amount of wood i was able to make two boxes, a simple slot ported box killed it.
i have a few good tricks up my sleeve but id have to kill you if i told ya v
youd be surprised at how little a difference there is between an expensive one and a cheap one.
apart from the most exotic steel used in the top and bottom plates such as permendur, actually the cheaper grade metals have a better permeability than the higher grade, the cheaper ones have a lower carbon content.
most of the difference is in the soft parts such as the spiders, cone and tinsels, alot of cheap subs can simply have their spiders replaced and it will perform twice as good, use 12 gauge speaker wires as opposed to tinsels and you just gained some efficiency, with the exception of tinsels that are already thick.
for voice coils, theres the round copper wire coils and the flatwound copper clad alumnium coils. Industry standards for round copper are 40mm and 50mm winding heights for a 3" wide coil.
The shorter coil being more efficient. The thinner the wire the more efficient it will be, but at the loss of high power handling, but not critical if not exceeding 1500 watt sinewaves for over 15 minutes.
what i usually look for in a good donor sub is:
1. voice coil diameter
2. cooling = more power handling
3.magnet width = more flux density,
5.spider width, allows more excursion, the ridges also play an important role in xmax and cone control.
6.spider material - some are paper some are cloth, the cloth ones cant take much power...you can tear the paper with your hands but not cloth...cloth strands are usually thicker.
7.thickness of top plate - allows more force upon the coil, but the magnet has to be sufficient also.
8. cone thickness - if exceeding 1000 watts
9. polepiece, a chamfered pole piece will allow better airflow, and better efficiency.
10. from my experiences, subs assembled with cyanoacryate are louder than those assembled with epoxy or mastic latex, with the exception of ceramic epoxy.
i tried a 'wicked one' before and it was a waste of time and wood, for the same amount of wood i was able to make two boxes, a simple slot ported box killed it.
i have a few good tricks up my sleeve but id have to kill you if i told ya
vI did not specify my budget at first by purpose, my aim was to be told the good ones from the bad ones, and then see what, if any I could afford. I have found a few that are willing to ship, but the shipping is more expensive than the driver in many instances. I think I will have to settle for drivers sold or made over here, it seems to be more economical than trying to self import. My largest problem so far, is not that they will not ship their products, they are not at all interested in telling me the few, in my view, technical parameters that I need for my simulations. Such manufacturers will therefore never be of interest to me.
Originally posted by Clipped i stopped buying expensive subs a long time ago and started modifying cheaper subs that would make good donors. youd be surprised at how little a difference there is between an expensive one and a cheap one.
i have a few good tricks up my sleeve but id have to kill you if i told ya
Very good advice, I'll save them for later use as well. The only problem with this approach is that you will have to have the "know how" of these processes, I am far from there, I am setting out on my first mission here.
Considering the pricing differences between most car subs and PA subs that I have been made aware of just lately, I might put off the car sub business for now, and gain by what I have learned so far when I buy my next car. (The present one has more than 680 000 kilometers under the hood, so no money or time on that one.)
And yes, I would like to live a little bit longer, so you better keep the secrets
A 20 hertz bass note has a wave length of about 32 feet. This means somewhere between two car length spaces around your little car the note will be properly formed. I drive a suburban / Sherman tank gas hog, and I use a folded horn type design using the entire rear section of my Burb just try and get low bass within my vehicle where I can enjoy it, not my neighbors vehicles.
I can only imagine what some people are getting for bass, and most of its not inside your vehicle. You just can't break the laws of Physics economically in a car. Hence all the complaints about bad bass in cars, and your search for the best built subs to take the incredible power your going to throw at them only not to hear the low sub bass inside your own car.
In fact a lot of what some people think they hear in the car as sub bass is actually the car body resonating with the SPL that your creating, thats not sub bass from a driver. Its resonances from the car body, you gotta love that metallic bass sound, hence the 400 pounds of Dyna-matte your going to install to soften the metallic rattling noise all the way down to the license plate ringing like buzzer.. Just add some bass shakers to the frame of your car and run them with 60 watt amps you will get the same effects, for cheap.
Then theres the high tech speakers with the Titanium composite carbon fiber cones < but how does it sound in your car? > and the 4 inch voice coils built on gold press latinum formers < but how does it sound in your car? >, and the super long throw extended depth 75 pound frame structures for rigidity < but how does nit sound in it your car? >, and the huge reinforced cabinets required to hold all that weight and not resonate like a tin cup < but how does it sound in your car? >..etc... 'But how does it sound in your car is the real question, not if its a aerospace marvel of industrial manufacturing technics".
Modern subs have come a long way since the early days and all the innovations have been aimed at producing usable bass inside your tiny vehicle space. They do this by weighting the cone structure to the point that sub is only capable of producing very low bass in infinitely small enclosures, and by adding voice coils that try to provide linear motion to the cone with a linear input < Hence the deep magnet structures and narrow long voice coils >. All the other stuff in the sub is used to control heat and magnetics so the linear motion can be maximized along with huge power handling this needed now to compensate for the damped cone structures. Most subs are not linear when you compare input signal to output sound produced, thus you get distortion of the bass. Double extra tight spiders and stiff surround materials only add to the damping effects that lower the subs output at the cost of efficiency, hence the huge power needed to drive the brick hard speakers. And then theres the kilo-watt amps needed and all the extra battery power and huge alternators...etc.... This starts to feed itself as you can see like a cancer. And you will never get perfect bass in a car, and it will cost thousands to drive the "perfect built sub" in a imperfect car environment.
Most peoples trunk space is barely usable as a sub enclosure just by physical size and space limitations. Let alone playing through the rear seats lol lol lol I love those installs. They kill amps cause you can't here the amp being clipped because of the muffling effects of the rear seats lol lol thats a money maker for me as I repair amps. Most of which are trunk sub setup through rear seats. But Sub makers have tried their best to give you a usable solution.
Sub speaker have such a HUGE profit margin that most sub makers have profited to the point of growing their business into amplifiers and Head units and the such. think about that info tidbit. JL and Kicker were sub company's only when they started out, now they build everything. They could not do this if the margins were not there, So when you run a list of 20 company names look at the numbers they are very profitable, hence the large numbers. And they are not federally regulated so they can SAY ANYTHING to you about there product and there is no one calling them out from legal point of view.Caveat Emptor - Buyer Beware
I love seeing those massive forged subs that people market to Joe Average Q public for $2000.00 and up each. And I think of all the nice things they will be buying with all of your money as you search for average bass in your vehicle. A very daunting task even for the more intelligent audio people.
My advice is that if you don't understand acoustics then pay someone that does to try and solve your sub bass issues in your vehicle. This does not assure you of a all around best solution but it will relieve you of all the math and headaches involved with the task at hand.
As for the best built sub, well thats a holy grail question, that will never be answered IMO as your going to take that best built sub and put it in the worst acoustic environment ever known to the audio industry. So why worry about it and why search for the Bismark of subs, when you at best will achieve mediocre bass in your Volkswagon sound environment.
Most makers build very strong subs nowadays. Some are better then others but whats the gain ? Once the elastomer's are worn out its a door stop unless your willing to pay a huge recone price.
Subs are all simple motor structures that are designed to go back and forth X amount of times then you buy a new one or have it rebuilt < buy a new one either way > If your having lifespan issues than I would look at your usage. Anything man made can be destroyed by a fool and his folly.
Why buy a $2000.00 sub when you not likely to need it that long. Most car audio setups last more then the life of the vehicle, so why waste money in Professional rated drivers used in the coliseum type environment when its not needed for you car audio setup ? I see lots of "Best Buy bass " cars here in Nor-cal as long as your eyes gel at 6 feet from the car everybody thinks the car has good bass, Duh !
The most perfect sub is not the answer to the question as I see it. Its the perfect use of ANY sub to deliver a return value worth investing into in the first place. And buying the "Bismark" type driver is not the solution to anyones hunt for good bass in a car. In fact ita a misguided waste of huge sums of money thinking you have solved the world of issues surrounding bass reproduction in a car.
PS I am preparing to replace my subs after 6 hard years of use. they still play fine but I can hear that the elastomer's are worn out and the bass definition has sagged from what I once had. I paid $168.00 a pair plus shipping for those subs. I think I got my money's worth out of them, now its time to move onto something else, I got my moneys worth, and they still play just not as tight as they used to be. Such is life, I'm not as tight as I used to be either lol lol lol Good luck on your hunt for the "Bismark" sub.
I can only imagine what some people are getting for bass, and most of its not inside your vehicle. You just can't break the laws of Physics economically in a car. Hence all the complaints about bad bass in cars, and your search for the best built subs to take the incredible power your going to throw at them only not to hear the low sub bass inside your own car.
In fact a lot of what some people think they hear in the car as sub bass is actually the car body resonating with the SPL that your creating, thats not sub bass from a driver. Its resonances from the car body, you gotta love that metallic bass sound, hence the 400 pounds of Dyna-matte your going to install to soften the metallic rattling noise all the way down to the license plate ringing like buzzer.. Just add some bass shakers to the frame of your car and run them with 60 watt amps you will get the same effects, for cheap.
Then theres the high tech speakers with the Titanium composite carbon fiber cones < but how does it sound in your car? > and the 4 inch voice coils built on gold press latinum formers < but how does it sound in your car? >, and the super long throw extended depth 75 pound frame structures for rigidity < but how does nit sound in it your car? >, and the huge reinforced cabinets required to hold all that weight and not resonate like a tin cup < but how does it sound in your car? >..etc... 'But how does it sound in your car is the real question, not if its a aerospace marvel of industrial manufacturing technics".
Modern subs have come a long way since the early days and all the innovations have been aimed at producing usable bass inside your tiny vehicle space. They do this by weighting the cone structure to the point that sub is only capable of producing very low bass in infinitely small enclosures, and by adding voice coils that try to provide linear motion to the cone with a linear input < Hence the deep magnet structures and narrow long voice coils >. All the other stuff in the sub is used to control heat and magnetics so the linear motion can be maximized along with huge power handling this needed now to compensate for the damped cone structures. Most subs are not linear when you compare input signal to output sound produced, thus you get distortion of the bass. Double extra tight spiders and stiff surround materials only add to the damping effects that lower the subs output at the cost of efficiency, hence the huge power needed to drive the brick hard speakers. And then theres the kilo-watt amps needed and all the extra battery power and huge alternators...etc.... This starts to feed itself as you can see like a cancer. And you will never get perfect bass in a car, and it will cost thousands to drive the "perfect built sub" in a imperfect car environment.
Most peoples trunk space is barely usable as a sub enclosure just by physical size and space limitations. Let alone playing through the rear seats lol lol lol I love those installs. They kill amps cause you can't here the amp being clipped because of the muffling effects of the rear seats lol lol thats a money maker for me as I repair amps. Most of which are trunk sub setup through rear seats. But Sub makers have tried their best to give you a usable solution.
Sub speaker have such a HUGE profit margin that most sub makers have profited to the point of growing their business into amplifiers and Head units and the such. think about that info tidbit. JL and Kicker were sub company's only when they started out, now they build everything. They could not do this if the margins were not there, So when you run a list of 20 company names look at the numbers they are very profitable, hence the large numbers. And they are not federally regulated so they can SAY ANYTHING to you about there product and there is no one calling them out from legal point of view.Caveat Emptor - Buyer Beware
I love seeing those massive forged subs that people market to Joe Average Q public for $2000.00 and up each. And I think of all the nice things they will be buying with all of your money as you search for average bass in your vehicle. A very daunting task even for the more intelligent audio people.
My advice is that if you don't understand acoustics then pay someone that does to try and solve your sub bass issues in your vehicle. This does not assure you of a all around best solution but it will relieve you of all the math and headaches involved with the task at hand.
As for the best built sub, well thats a holy grail question, that will never be answered IMO as your going to take that best built sub and put it in the worst acoustic environment ever known to the audio industry. So why worry about it and why search for the Bismark of subs, when you at best will achieve mediocre bass in your Volkswagon sound environment.
Most makers build very strong subs nowadays. Some are better then others but whats the gain ? Once the elastomer's are worn out its a door stop unless your willing to pay a huge recone price.
Subs are all simple motor structures that are designed to go back and forth X amount of times then you buy a new one or have it rebuilt < buy a new one either way > If your having lifespan issues than I would look at your usage. Anything man made can be destroyed by a fool and his folly.
Why buy a $2000.00 sub when you not likely to need it that long. Most car audio setups last more then the life of the vehicle, so why waste money in Professional rated drivers used in the coliseum type environment when its not needed for you car audio setup ? I see lots of "Best Buy bass " cars here in Nor-cal as long as your eyes gel at 6 feet from the car everybody thinks the car has good bass, Duh !
The most perfect sub is not the answer to the question as I see it. Its the perfect use of ANY sub to deliver a return value worth investing into in the first place. And buying the "Bismark" type driver is not the solution to anyones hunt for good bass in a car. In fact ita a misguided waste of huge sums of money thinking you have solved the world of issues surrounding bass reproduction in a car.
PS I am preparing to replace my subs after 6 hard years of use. they still play fine but I can hear that the elastomer's are worn out and the bass definition has sagged from what I once had. I paid $168.00 a pair plus shipping for those subs. I think I got my money's worth out of them, now its time to move onto something else, I got my moneys worth, and they still play just not as tight as they used to be. Such is life, I'm not as tight as I used to be either lol lol lol Good luck on your hunt for the "Bismark" sub.
Great post 1moreamp!
I used to run the cheapest subs and had great bass, people still come after me for that with both barrels....I'm such an idiot for saying that. Its funny, they really don't have a clue and have swallowed the marketing hook, line, and sinker. All depends on your install, but I'd say I can get out of a sub setup for a typical daily driver with some semblance of SQ with the cheapest equipment in the car compared to the rest. If you want super loud, then they will simply blow up...but once all my mirrors shake at ~30Hz (and can get under that) then I don't need more.
As far as bad bass, seems to me many either: want SPL/ manufacturer recommends too small a box, packages it that way, or one is used anyway. Sure better stuff is good in many cases, but I still say subs is the least important funding in a car for listening to music.
I used to run the cheapest subs and had great bass, people still come after me for that with both barrels....I'm such an idiot for saying that. Its funny, they really don't have a clue and have swallowed the marketing hook, line, and sinker. All depends on your install, but I'd say I can get out of a sub setup for a typical daily driver with some semblance of SQ with the cheapest equipment in the car compared to the rest. If you want super loud, then they will simply blow up...but once all my mirrors shake at ~30Hz (and can get under that) then I don't need more.As far as bad bass, seems to me many either: want SPL/ manufacturer recommends too small a box, packages it that way, or one is used anyway. Sure better stuff is good in many cases, but I still say subs is the least important funding in a car for listening to music.
Maybe I should have frased this thread heading differently? My firm belief is that build quality differs. However, build quality must not necessarily mirror price. What I was after was drivers with good build quality, separated from the drivers with poor build quality. It is nothing that says that just because a driver has fancy materials or extra heavy duty, it will have excellent build quality or the other way around. So was I wrong in trying to find out the good ones from the bad ones? I believe that in general, it is a good way to start, asking the users of their opinons, trying to stay away from all the sales hype. How else will you learn?
By "build quality" do you mean how well the driver is made, for example its tendency to not fall apart and to be very accurately built with quality materials.
Or, are you saying "build" quality when you mean "sound" quality?
Surely you can get both in the same woofer. Of course all of us will have differing opinioins.
Or, are you saying "build" quality when you mean "sound" quality?
Surely you can get both in the same woofer. Of course all of us will have differing opinioins.
Maybe we are on the same page. When I'm shopping for speakers in general I like to check build quality. It is important for a loudspeaker to have precise symmetrical measurements and solid build to make tuning easier. Contrary to some peoples' beliefs I prefer using products built buy a company with many years of electronics engineering experience. I don't usually go with companies that popped into existance after the early 80's. Some have been around way longer. I actually have polk currently and I wouldn't have chosen them but since their involvement with DEI improved their manufacturing methods making them more durable and accurate, I had to try.
Of all of the subwoofers I've used, the pioneer were the most reliable bar none. I've used fosgate, kicker, alpine, polk, infinity, etc, and although I've never abused any (for long anyways
), the pioneers always were sold in working condition. I've demolished the others running recommended wattages and no other outstanding variables. Its almost like some manufacturers specs were on the outer limits of normal operation and the pioneer were well within operatin limits no matter what. I know they make cheap low powered models as well, but you should try some of their high powered versions. All of this talk about "mainstream" is bs. Toyota is mainstream, Nissan is mainstream, Honda is mainstream. Get it?
Of all of the subwoofers I've used, the pioneer were the most reliable bar none. I've used fosgate, kicker, alpine, polk, infinity, etc, and although I've never abused any (for long anyways
), the pioneers always were sold in working condition. I've demolished the others running recommended wattages and no other outstanding variables. Its almost like some manufacturers specs were on the outer limits of normal operation and the pioneer were well within operatin limits no matter what. I know they make cheap low powered models as well, but you should try some of their high powered versions. All of this talk about "mainstream" is bs. Toyota is mainstream, Nissan is mainstream, Honda is mainstream. Get it?i vouch for pioneer too, just that ... where i live now they arent cheap...
but have had good results when i was back in the states...coils were usually centered better than some speakers back in the day...you can usually tell a well centered sub , by the way it carries a note and lingers, a poorly centered sub 'shakes' off at the last instance.
magnets with a 'greyer' tinge are usually stronger than magnets that look too black or plasticy...less ferrite and more binder is used...industry standards for the most commercialized ferrites are Grade 3, 5, 8...8 being the strongest.
the grade 8 mags will be more brittle..but nothing to worry about.
check out konaki subs, they try to be DD clones...but have had spider glue problems in the past. or my weapon of choice for donor subs...BM audio ZD-12xal...i have 6 , everything is good except the spiders...why they went cheap for this one part i dont know...the motor is centered via screws and glue, not just glue.
if you decide to recone, one good trick is dropping a coil inside the gap, if it floats down, it interacts well with the gap ... if it just drops, cone control wont be very good...people try different coil configurations to get the most power from their amps...but efficiency of the speaker is often overlooked.
but have had good results when i was back in the states...coils were usually centered better than some speakers back in the day...you can usually tell a well centered sub , by the way it carries a note and lingers, a poorly centered sub 'shakes' off at the last instance.
magnets with a 'greyer' tinge are usually stronger than magnets that look too black or plasticy...less ferrite and more binder is used...industry standards for the most commercialized ferrites are Grade 3, 5, 8...8 being the strongest.
the grade 8 mags will be more brittle..but nothing to worry about.
check out konaki subs, they try to be DD clones...but have had spider glue problems in the past. or my weapon of choice for donor subs...BM audio ZD-12xal...i have 6 , everything is good except the spiders...why they went cheap for this one part i dont know...the motor is centered via screws and glue, not just glue.
if you decide to recone, one good trick is dropping a coil inside the gap, if it floats down, it interacts well with the gap ... if it just drops, cone control wont be very good...people try different coil configurations to get the most power from their amps...but efficiency of the speaker is often overlooked.
Have you heard any of CDT ES series subs?? Ihave a couple of CDT ES-1200SQ its really the best Musical Woofer iv heard and iv have owned them all in one time ore another. If your going to stockholm any time soon i can invite you to check them out. i have one fore sale to !! ; ))
PS:exucse my spelling but im swedish you knowS
PS:exucse my spelling but im swedish you know
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