I am an auctioneer who sells to both inside and outside venues. I want to upgrade my sound system. I want it to be somewhat portable. Most venues with systems just are never good enough. I conduct large inside and outside sales. I need to be be clear yet loud enough for my audience. Any help or ideas would be awesome. I don't mind spending money but want a great product not just an overhyped brand.
Location. I generally put two large speakers in the front. Could you recommend a better system for inside/ outside sales?
I am looking at possibly getting a long range hailer style system. Would you recommend the best one in the industry? It would be cost effective to use just a hailer system for everything. How many speakers and where?
Who makes the best handsfree mic out there? Would prefer a wireless handsfree system.
Would you use a traditional style speaker for indoor and smaller audiences?
I was also considering a smaller system which would be portable. Something like a hailer style speaker and mic incase the venue doesn't have electric or as a backup because a failed system can lead to a sore voice.
Thank you in advance for your help!
Location. I generally put two large speakers in the front. Could you recommend a better system for inside/ outside sales?
I am looking at possibly getting a long range hailer style system. Would you recommend the best one in the industry? It would be cost effective to use just a hailer system for everything. How many speakers and where?
Who makes the best handsfree mic out there? Would prefer a wireless handsfree system.
Would you use a traditional style speaker for indoor and smaller audiences?
I was also considering a smaller system which would be portable. Something like a hailer style speaker and mic incase the venue doesn't have electric or as a backup because a failed system can lead to a sore voice.
Thank you in advance for your help!
I've relocated your thread to the Live Sound/PA Systems as I thought this would be the place where you'd be likely to get the best answer.Welcome to the forum! 😀
Outside sound systems tend to need to be powerful as the vast openness just sucks out the sound.
A good efficient class d amp with an efficient pair of speakers would probably be OK.
A good efficient class d amp with an efficient pair of speakers would probably be OK.
Are you going to build the speakers yourself or do you wish to buy something ready-made?
Is it for speech only?
Is intelligibility sufficient or should it also sound natural?
What horizontal and vertical dispersion do you need?
How far away do listeners stand?
Is it for speech only?
Is intelligibility sufficient or should it also sound natural?
What horizontal and vertical dispersion do you need?
How far away do listeners stand?
Best/fast is to buy a couple powered speakers which take care of all details, speaker/power/EQ/preamp/limiters/cabinet are all solved by manufacturer, most already offer a built-in basic 1 Microphone 1 Line input and can be linked so one drives the other.
Choose a loud and copmpact system which fits your car trunk.
12" speakers and some 250W per cabinet should be ample for practically any Auction site I can think of.
Choose a loud and copmpact system which fits your car trunk.
12" speakers and some 250W per cabinet should be ample for practically any Auction site I can think of.
I was hoping to buy a ready made system unless putting one together would work better. Do the pa style hailer set ups work better than standard speakers? What are the top brands in terms of performance. And this will be speech only. Thank you
Whatever speaker you get, the key point is to get your speaker up as high as possible, so it can unobstructedly radiate sound over the crowd. If you place the speaker on the floor, the sound will be completely absorbed by the crowd
I recommend you buy a stand like this:
Talent LS1 8 ft. Heavy Duty Tripod Lighting Stand
You don't have to worry about the fact that it is sold as a lighting equipment stand. You can leave out the T-bar-part and just use it as a speaker stand. This is also mentioned in the product description. The reason I recommend this stand is the extended height that this stand is capable of. It goes up to 8 ft! This is very important for your purpose, as you need to get your speaker well above head height to carry the sound far.
If I was in the states and in your situation, I would try something like this:
Galaxy Audio TQ8-40H0N Traveler Quest Battery Powered PA System with Wireless Handheld Microphone
it is self-contained with battery operation and a wireless mic. The small size is not a problem at all, on the contrary. The 8" speaker and 1" tweeter should have good sound quality, especially for speech. Since you are only concerned with amplifying speech, this speaker should be perfect. 105 dB is not deafeningly loud, but it will do the job easily. And the rating is plausible, it should be capable of providing what is promised.
The speaker it has a master EQ, which you should use to cut out the bass. This will suppress inevitable "plopping" sounds and give you additional headroom for the more important main range of your voice.
(A common problem with bigger boxes, especially 15" full range boxes is that the 15" cone is too big to play the higher midrange well, but in the cheaper boxes they run the 15" woofers much too high because the tweeters are weak -> bad midrange-> bad sound)
I recommend you buy a stand like this:
Talent LS1 8 ft. Heavy Duty Tripod Lighting Stand
You don't have to worry about the fact that it is sold as a lighting equipment stand. You can leave out the T-bar-part and just use it as a speaker stand. This is also mentioned in the product description. The reason I recommend this stand is the extended height that this stand is capable of. It goes up to 8 ft! This is very important for your purpose, as you need to get your speaker well above head height to carry the sound far.
If I was in the states and in your situation, I would try something like this:
Galaxy Audio TQ8-40H0N Traveler Quest Battery Powered PA System with Wireless Handheld Microphone
it is self-contained with battery operation and a wireless mic. The small size is not a problem at all, on the contrary. The 8" speaker and 1" tweeter should have good sound quality, especially for speech. Since you are only concerned with amplifying speech, this speaker should be perfect. 105 dB is not deafeningly loud, but it will do the job easily. And the rating is plausible, it should be capable of providing what is promised.
The speaker it has a master EQ, which you should use to cut out the bass. This will suppress inevitable "plopping" sounds and give you additional headroom for the more important main range of your voice.
(A common problem with bigger boxes, especially 15" full range boxes is that the 15" cone is too big to play the higher midrange well, but in the cheaper boxes they run the 15" woofers much too high because the tweeters are weak -> bad midrange-> bad sound)
If you posted this question at Pro Sound Web in the Forum section, under the "LAB Lounge" sub-section, you will most likely get (eventually) a very good answer. I say "eventually" because they will hit you with a barrage of questions, like these:
1. "large inside and outside sales" means more-precisely what, in terms of number of people AND either the inside room dimensions (L,W, and H in feet) or outside space occupied by the crowd (W and D in feet or yards).
2. "loud enough for my audience" means more-precisely what? Teacher talking to a class of students-loud? High School Football PA announcer loud? Football coach yelling in your face or Police Megaphone loud? What is your target audience like? (a hushed group of mostly-silent art auction attendees or an all-talking-or-hollering-at-the-same-time mob of highly competitive, rowdy and aggressive attendees). Are you typically, or ever, competing with other sound sources (traffic, wind, heat on pavement, or other crowds/events/music)?
3. "I generally put two large speakers...". What, specifically, are those two large speakers? Brand and Model number, please. If you don't know, please describe them in detail (size of speaker components in the box... woofer, midrange, tweeter... cones or horns, overall box dimensions). If they do not include built-in amplifiers, what amplifier are you using to power them (brand and model)? What microphone? What mixer between the mic and amp? Do you typically operate from a stage/risers or from floor/ground level? Does your current setup involve elevating the speakers so that they are above the heads of the attendees? Does that setup not meet you needs because it isn't loud enough? Or, isn't clear enough? Or doesn't cover the complete width (or depth) of the crowd? Or, it isn't free-enough from feedback? Why two speakers (for width of coverage or just for volume)?
4. You imply that different systems would be more appropriate for inside and outside auctions. I would assume that your only consideration is "clarity of spoken word". Is that correct? Or, do you play music before the sales begin, or between auctions? Voice-only clarity is much cheaper, lighter and easy to power than music.
5. "I don't mind spending money but want a great product, not just an overhyped brand". In auto racing there's an old saying by Smokey Yunick that applies to just about everything: Speed Costs Money... How Fast Do You Want to Go? So, having some notion of what your budget is will narrow the range of systems down, quickly. For example... "The Best" wireless microphone is probably not what you want. A very reliable, affordable, serviceable, readily available wireless microphone is more probably what you want.
6. By "hailer system", do you mean one of these: Amplivox SW664 Mobile Line Array Hailer System (YouTube) If so, I think the DIY Audio folks will be less capable of helping. They tend to be a "sound fidelity" driven crowd. The Pro Sound Web Forum is inclined to be more driven by "Loud and Clear" than "Highest Fidelity".
You'll need to answer these questions and maybe more in order to get what you want... a great solution to an important component to your business model.
Here's an example or two of why they will ask all the questions: 1) The "perfect speakers" will fail miserably if they are not deployed correctly. As Bob4 says, your PA speakers must be raised above the heads of your audience to be heard correctly. Why? Even though lower frequencies (bass) are omni-directional, will travel around bodies, and resist being absorbed, middle frequencies (your voice is mostly this) are more directional, do not travel around bodies as readily, and get somewhat absorbed by people, etc. Finally, higher frequencies (overtones of your voice), which add significantly to speech intelligibility, are very directional (if you can't see the speaker, you can't hear that speaker's high frequencies... have someone hold their hand in front of their mouth while they talk to you... it makes it much more difficult to understand their speech), get completely absorbed by people, and, strange but true, distance and heat both interfere with high frequencies, too. 2) The "Hailer System" you mention will do a great job of making it easy to raise the speakers above the audience's head, easy to transport, easy to power (batteries even work), etc. But, what it won't do is give your voice a "more natural, rich sound". And, strangely, you might really want your voice to have that "natural, rich sound". Buyers want to "trust" their sellers. A natural, resonant, rich tone to your voice might lend credibility and "trust" to your presentation. That, in turn, may pay dividends in the form of long-term incrementally increased bids. You might want to consider that in deciding your budget. (To me, your voice is your money-maker... don't underestimate how important it is to get your voice sounding it's best and broadcast it's best to all your paying customers)(I haven't even mentioned equalization or sound processing or the fact that different microphones make your voice sound different).
If you go over to Pro Sound Web (and I believe that you should), you will get answers from people whose business is sound reinforcement. Here, it's more a hobby... even though these hobbyists are also unquestionably some of the smartest, well-informed, and capable people you'll ever get free advice from.
Wish you the Best.
1. "large inside and outside sales" means more-precisely what, in terms of number of people AND either the inside room dimensions (L,W, and H in feet) or outside space occupied by the crowd (W and D in feet or yards).
2. "loud enough for my audience" means more-precisely what? Teacher talking to a class of students-loud? High School Football PA announcer loud? Football coach yelling in your face or Police Megaphone loud? What is your target audience like? (a hushed group of mostly-silent art auction attendees or an all-talking-or-hollering-at-the-same-time mob of highly competitive, rowdy and aggressive attendees). Are you typically, or ever, competing with other sound sources (traffic, wind, heat on pavement, or other crowds/events/music)?
3. "I generally put two large speakers...". What, specifically, are those two large speakers? Brand and Model number, please. If you don't know, please describe them in detail (size of speaker components in the box... woofer, midrange, tweeter... cones or horns, overall box dimensions). If they do not include built-in amplifiers, what amplifier are you using to power them (brand and model)? What microphone? What mixer between the mic and amp? Do you typically operate from a stage/risers or from floor/ground level? Does your current setup involve elevating the speakers so that they are above the heads of the attendees? Does that setup not meet you needs because it isn't loud enough? Or, isn't clear enough? Or doesn't cover the complete width (or depth) of the crowd? Or, it isn't free-enough from feedback? Why two speakers (for width of coverage or just for volume)?
4. You imply that different systems would be more appropriate for inside and outside auctions. I would assume that your only consideration is "clarity of spoken word". Is that correct? Or, do you play music before the sales begin, or between auctions? Voice-only clarity is much cheaper, lighter and easy to power than music.
5. "I don't mind spending money but want a great product, not just an overhyped brand". In auto racing there's an old saying by Smokey Yunick that applies to just about everything: Speed Costs Money... How Fast Do You Want to Go? So, having some notion of what your budget is will narrow the range of systems down, quickly. For example... "The Best" wireless microphone is probably not what you want. A very reliable, affordable, serviceable, readily available wireless microphone is more probably what you want.
6. By "hailer system", do you mean one of these: Amplivox SW664 Mobile Line Array Hailer System (YouTube) If so, I think the DIY Audio folks will be less capable of helping. They tend to be a "sound fidelity" driven crowd. The Pro Sound Web Forum is inclined to be more driven by "Loud and Clear" than "Highest Fidelity".
You'll need to answer these questions and maybe more in order to get what you want... a great solution to an important component to your business model.
Here's an example or two of why they will ask all the questions: 1) The "perfect speakers" will fail miserably if they are not deployed correctly. As Bob4 says, your PA speakers must be raised above the heads of your audience to be heard correctly. Why? Even though lower frequencies (bass) are omni-directional, will travel around bodies, and resist being absorbed, middle frequencies (your voice is mostly this) are more directional, do not travel around bodies as readily, and get somewhat absorbed by people, etc. Finally, higher frequencies (overtones of your voice), which add significantly to speech intelligibility, are very directional (if you can't see the speaker, you can't hear that speaker's high frequencies... have someone hold their hand in front of their mouth while they talk to you... it makes it much more difficult to understand their speech), get completely absorbed by people, and, strange but true, distance and heat both interfere with high frequencies, too. 2) The "Hailer System" you mention will do a great job of making it easy to raise the speakers above the audience's head, easy to transport, easy to power (batteries even work), etc. But, what it won't do is give your voice a "more natural, rich sound". And, strangely, you might really want your voice to have that "natural, rich sound". Buyers want to "trust" their sellers. A natural, resonant, rich tone to your voice might lend credibility and "trust" to your presentation. That, in turn, may pay dividends in the form of long-term incrementally increased bids. You might want to consider that in deciding your budget. (To me, your voice is your money-maker... don't underestimate how important it is to get your voice sounding it's best and broadcast it's best to all your paying customers)(I haven't even mentioned equalization or sound processing or the fact that different microphones make your voice sound different).
If you go over to Pro Sound Web (and I believe that you should), you will get answers from people whose business is sound reinforcement. Here, it's more a hobby... even though these hobbyists are also unquestionably some of the smartest, well-informed, and capable people you'll ever get free advice from.
Wish you the Best.
what you want is a line array, it is a vertical column of drivers of the same size, it has a number of significant advantages, principally that for a line source the sound drops off only 3dB per doubling of distance as opposed to 6dB for a point source, this means that you can reach the people furthest away while not blasting away the people right in front of you.
Another benefit is that a line array has very low vertical dispersion, practically that means, that you're not wasting energy in sending sound to the ceiling or floor, and more importantly more sound directly from the speaker and not bouncing off ceiling or floor.
And then because you have more drivers each driver has to do less work in producing the same SPL than a single driver, and this is actually the most significant benefit, because you want to be heard more than you want to be loud?
Now, because you're only interested in voice, I would use 2.5" (maybe 3") fullrange drivers with a neo magnet, of about 1m in height, this will give you about 10m of range where the array will act as line source after that it gradually appears as a point source.
I would construct it as a dipole, a line of drivers on opposite sides of the box, with a switch, so you can switch of one side, for indoor and outdoor duty.
If you want something off the shelf then there isn't much out there, except (as far as I know), and it pains me greatly to say, the Bose L1, it is overpriced for what it is of maybe adequate quality, but if you want something now, this could be it.
Another benefit is that a line array has very low vertical dispersion, practically that means, that you're not wasting energy in sending sound to the ceiling or floor, and more importantly more sound directly from the speaker and not bouncing off ceiling or floor.
And then because you have more drivers each driver has to do less work in producing the same SPL than a single driver, and this is actually the most significant benefit, because you want to be heard more than you want to be loud?
Now, because you're only interested in voice, I would use 2.5" (maybe 3") fullrange drivers with a neo magnet, of about 1m in height, this will give you about 10m of range where the array will act as line source after that it gradually appears as a point source.
I would construct it as a dipole, a line of drivers on opposite sides of the box, with a switch, so you can switch of one side, for indoor and outdoor duty.
If you want something off the shelf then there isn't much out there, except (as far as I know), and it pains me greatly to say, the Bose L1, it is overpriced for what it is of maybe adequate quality, but if you want something now, this could be it.
Thanks for the replies. How would that compare to something like the audiovox half mile hailer Half-Mile Hailer Kits – Outdoor portable PA system & speaker kits
… Only at frequencies where its acting as a line array. In the lower midrange and bass, it's still a point source, and still acts like one.
Sure, the >3kHz range will benefit from the 3dB per doubling of distance, but that just means you've got huge changes in tonality over the coverage distance.
With regards to your other points, a Faital Pro 10FH520 will cheerfully annihilate a whole line of 3" drivers on power handling and output, in a smaller (by volume) box.
Why would you ever want to switch half the drivers off? At the very least, build two boxes and put them back-to-back if the situation calls for it. Otherwise, you're carrying twice the weight and paying twice the money for something you'll rarely use.
Chris
a re-entrant horn might be pretty good for voice - that's a nice kit. You might be able to cobble something together a good deal cheaper if not that nice looking - it would be about $$170 for a pair of the 20" diameter horns below with drivers - wonder what it takes to mount to a tripod? - a $25 tripod would be plenty sturdy enough
Dayton Audio RPH16 16" Round PA Horn Pair
Dayton Audio RPH20 20" Round PA Horn Pair
Dayton Audio D1075T 75W PA Speaker Horn Driver with 70V Transformer
Dayton Audio RPH16 16" Round PA Horn Pair
Dayton Audio RPH20 20" Round PA Horn Pair
Dayton Audio D1075T 75W PA Speaker Horn Driver with 70V Transformer
Sorry to say, but it looks like ****, except for the aspect of being an integrated product. For the horn size, it will hardly do anything below 500 Hz, and probably get to full efficiency around 1 kHz, so it WILL sound very tinny indeed.
The more important question, which you have not answered yet: Do you use stands for the speakers you are currently using? Also you really should provide exact model numbers for the speakers you have at the moment, otherwise it is impossible to give you any sensible advice
EDIT: the main reason I say the half mile hailer is ****, is that none of the product documentation contain any acoustic specs for these systems. No data on frequency response, no Sound pressure figures. This is very suspicious. as I pointed out, the size of the horns suggests that they will have a very high cutoff and miss all the fundamentals of the voice. Even parts of the mid frequencies will likely be underrepresented.
The 8" galaxy audio cab that I threw in as an example will not fare worse, quite on the contrary. Due to the additional 8" woofer it can actually play back frequencies below 500 or 1000 Hz. And it has actual technical ratings of acoustic parameters in it's documentation: the aforementioned 105 dB max SPL, and 70 - 18000 Hz frequency response. Especially if you cut the bass as I suggested, it will likely exceed that 105 dB max SPL figure. And to be clear: 105 dB is louder than Tarzan. Only professional singers can reach this kind of SPL level with their voice, if at all. You have to yell from the top of your lung to even come close. according to this research, the average male voice shouts at a level of 82 dB.
Analysis and Synthesis of Shouted Speech
105 dB max SPL should be enough for your typical application, provided that you raise the loudspeaker high enough so it has a chance to cover the crowd.
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oh, and by the way, the galaxy audio brochure mentions auctioneers as a typical case. They have belt pack transmitters and head set mics available as accessories
could be good, but your audience is not ½ mile more like less than 100'?
I wonder about dispersion, but you don't need more than 120°?
But it could work, my local train station has an amazing horn speaker PA system, so they can work very well, might be worth auditioning.
define huge, will it affect intelligibility? no.
you missed the brief, this is not a rock concert, this is is about being understood, power handling is irrelevant.
I had envisaged something like this driver
dayton 2.5" 16 ohm ,
wired in parallel, 2ohm gives 98(80+18)dB sensitivity
with a TPA3118 amp.
Make box out of ¼"ply, integrate battery and wireless mic receiver into the box, power with 1.5Ah LiIon battery all day with very low distortion for half the weight and same cost of that Faital driver alone, with superior directivety and intelligibility.
The column speaker even lends itself to integrating the tripod for a truly one box solution.
Attachments
My point is that those little drivers will not have low distortion at the power levels involved here. If you hit each one with 10w, they'll be pretty close to their limits and won't be sounding great. Your 98dB figure is with 2.83v input, which is 0.5w per driver. Going to 10w per driver would result in 113dB.
If you hit that Faital Pro driver with 1000w, it still sounds fine. I know because I happen to use them at those power levels. That'd be doing around 126dB.
That's not to mention the larger driver's ability to produce low-mids and bass reasonably well, on account of having a useful amount of cone area and a healthy Xmax.
bob4, 105dB is not up to PA output levels. Most people's home HiFi system will beat that.
To the OP, figure out how loud and at what distance, and how important sound quality is to you. Re-entrant horns rarely sound good, but some of them do manage to get the point across.
Chris
If you hit that Faital Pro driver with 1000w, it still sounds fine. I know because I happen to use them at those power levels. That'd be doing around 126dB.
That's not to mention the larger driver's ability to produce low-mids and bass reasonably well, on account of having a useful amount of cone area and a healthy Xmax.
bob4, 105dB is not up to PA output levels. Most people's home HiFi system will beat that.
To the OP, figure out how loud and at what distance, and how important sound quality is to you. Re-entrant horns rarely sound good, but some of them do manage to get the point across.
Chris
Keeping in mind that the application is an auction not a rave, what do you think is an appropriate power level?
I don't think there is any "official" absolute definition for how loud a loudspeaker has to be to be considered "PA"
Strictly speaking any speaker system that amplifies the human voice beyond it's natural loudness is a Public Address system.
sure, 105 dB is not much, but it is 20 dB more than the average shouting person (= psychoacoustically "four times as loud"). That should be enough for the purpose stated by the thread starter. with 30 dB of preamplifier gain, he can comfortably speak at a normal level of say ~70 dB, have 100 dB out of the speaker, 80 dB at 10m away, and the same 70 dB that came out of his mouth at 15m away.
120 or 126 dB SPL would of course be even better and constitute comfortable headroom for larger crowds. But is there any integrated product with battery operation, wireless, etc. capable of such output in the US market that would be within the thread starters budget?
The thread starters problem boils down to three points:
1) is he presently using speaker stands? -> acoustically optimal deployment of loudspeakers
2) how loud does it need to be?
3) one single integrated piece of equipment VS. a set of discrete components (genny/battery;wireless mic;small mixer;power amp;loudspeakers)
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