Yawn, funnily enough in the world of electronics connectors, their influence on signals when in circuit and there good and bad points have been extensively researched.
If you believe a connector is influencing your sound, because you perceive some difference then take empirical measurements and data so you can be certain there is a difference and if there is what the difference is so you can fix the problem, that is the only way.
Waxing lyrical about hearing night and day differences is of no use to man nor beast as it is just an opinion that can be interpreted differently by different people and requires data to back up the claim and provide a foundation for solving a problem if one exists.
Again plenty of info and research has been done on connectors and their effects in circuit, audio reproduction is no different from any other field of electronics, follows the same physical rules etc. This is not magic or art it is engineering and science, oh and if there is a difference then it will be measurable......
If you believe a connector is influencing your sound, because you perceive some difference then take empirical measurements and data so you can be certain there is a difference and if there is what the difference is so you can fix the problem, that is the only way.
Waxing lyrical about hearing night and day differences is of no use to man nor beast as it is just an opinion that can be interpreted differently by different people and requires data to back up the claim and provide a foundation for solving a problem if one exists.
Again plenty of info and research has been done on connectors and their effects in circuit, audio reproduction is no different from any other field of electronics, follows the same physical rules etc. This is not magic or art it is engineering and science, oh and if there is a difference then it will be measurable......
To be honest , i would gladly argue that in essence it is all it amounts to, but i was paraphrasing for the sake of brevity and avoidance of boredom . 🙄
Dan,
you are the one bringing boredom in, by repeating unfounded and unproved hypothesis.
Or should I say "by repeating unprovable hypothesis".
you are the one bringing boredom in, by repeating unfounded and unproved hypothesis.
Or should I say "by repeating unprovable hypothesis".
Perhaps you should go to bed earlier ?
you diss my post by attributing to me comments I did not make in what appears to be a lazy exposition of a body of thought you are against .
I reject your assumption that all that is to be heard in hifi is amenable to measurement .
Hifi is solipsistic hobby , it aint my job to convince you of anything .
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Perhaps you should learn manners....
I provided an answer and did not quote your post so the answer was generic...
Diss not dish....
What in hi-fi that is heard is not measurable, I am afraid you are wrong here....
Solipsistic, no I don't think so, all aspects of the design side are covered by the rules of physics, in some cases I may use the term delusional hobby or perceptual hobby, but the bones of audio reproduction is physics and engineering, the solipsistic approach seems to be uses by those that don't have an understanding of the science behind audio reproduction.
I provided an answer and did not quote your post so the answer was generic...
Diss not dish....
What in hi-fi that is heard is not measurable, I am afraid you are wrong here....
Solipsistic, no I don't think so, all aspects of the design side are covered by the rules of physics, in some cases I may use the term delusional hobby or perceptual hobby, but the bones of audio reproduction is physics and engineering, the solipsistic approach seems to be uses by those that don't have an understanding of the science behind audio reproduction.
Are you telling me or asking me vis-a-vis manners , i ask in abscence of a question mark 😉
Fistly - hifi measurements are more marketing than science and rarely comparable. Thd measured at 1 frequency
Secondly . would you like to point me the direction of a set of measurements that will tell how how well a certain amplifier will present a sound stage in my room ?
or a set of drive unit measurements which will tell me which one of the drivers will present dynamic speed and transient attack better .
or a set of measurements that will tell me whether i should support my speakers on foam , end grain balsa or spikes .
Ta .
save me listening for sure .
In a technology where distortion is measured at 0.001 %, you might expect all amps to sound the same, all cables to sound the same and all connectors to sound the same. Or you may think the opposite as our methods of measuring are inadequate.
If you are convinced that connectors influence audio playback then you should not be using them at all.
I like to bet on both sides. I solder my interconnects and cables directly to the chip/PCB/ capacitor and GND.
I have also developed a new way of improving any cable or interconnect, please do not pass this on to anyone, I make them extra short!!! If I can half their length I must be doubling their quality. If I could accomplish such an improvement to my amps and speakers I would be very happy.
If you are convinced that connectors influence audio playback then you should not be using them at all.
I like to bet on both sides. I solder my interconnects and cables directly to the chip/PCB/ capacitor and GND.
I have also developed a new way of improving any cable or interconnect, please do not pass this on to anyone, I make them extra short!!! If I can half their length I must be doubling their quality. If I could accomplish such an improvement to my amps and speakers I would be very happy.
Much as some might wish it to be otherwise, DIYaudio does not have a Chinese wall between 'true believers' and 'hardnosed engineers'. Hence it is common to find both in the same thread, whichever 'side' started the thread. This provides for the possibility of learning on both sides. Good manners means that people often do what I did in this thread: offer an alternative view then keep quiet and let people talk about wasting their own money as they wish.
If I say that Kirchoff's laws mean that such-and-such will happen in a circuit then I am not offering an "opinion". The only grounds for correction would be if I have misunderstood the circuit; I can't misunderstand Kirchoff's laws (they are too simple for misunderstanding) and I can't lay them aside as though they are optional parts of some belief system.
This forum may be a little different from other 'hi-fi' forums you have visited. Strange as it may seem, here the "scientific method of explanation" is not "OTT" but encouraged - although not insisted upon. Hence what is often shared here is not "opinion" but established scientific or mathematical fact. In a free country people may hold any opinion they like, including opinions which are known to be completely without foundation, but they should not complain when their opinions are criticised.Daniel quinn said:
If I say that Kirchoff's laws mean that such-and-such will happen in a circuit then I am not offering an "opinion". The only grounds for correction would be if I have misunderstood the circuit; I can't misunderstand Kirchoff's laws (they are too simple for misunderstanding) and I can't lay them aside as though they are optional parts of some belief system.
Once again THD is mentioned first by those who reject it. This is rather boring. Why not try criticising what engineers actually believe, rather than the simplistic assertions which you imagine we believe? Of course, to do that you would first have to learn what we believe, and why we believe it.
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You will see from my original inocous post that my entire hifi from cartridge to speakers is hard wired . 😀
I was responding to posts made you and others. Isn't this what is supposed to happen on a forum?
Yes but its a thread about connectors - Nobody sells them based on measurement and i have never seen compartive measurements . They are truly a suck it and see component .
Thus forgive me , but i would question the relevancy of what you say in any discussion about connectors .
Thus forgive me , but i would question the relevancy of what you say in any discussion about connectors .
Dunno whats the deal here ....
IF i have money, there will be all gold connectors and wires in my system, BUT - i don't have ...
If you have enough money for WBT - great - if you don't - go for some you can pay ...
Blind tests all over the world shows to expensive cables are bull ....
Remember one one million speaker cable challenge ?
Some guys REALLY need to go and read "Snake Oil" thread ...
My cables ?
U use those : HISAGO AUDIO CABLES
Why? I read this HISAGO material and also i got them cheap ....
One more thing, like all unidirectional signal flow cables should be, hose are spot welded - not soldered ....
Now, we can talk about science here day in day out, but make no sense ...
Again, if you have money - go for WBT, if you don't - find the compromise what is best for you ...
•
IF i have money, there will be all gold connectors and wires in my system, BUT - i don't have ...
If you have enough money for WBT - great - if you don't - go for some you can pay ...
Blind tests all over the world shows to expensive cables are bull ....
Remember one one million speaker cable challenge ?
Some guys REALLY need to go and read "Snake Oil" thread ...
My cables ?
U use those : HISAGO AUDIO CABLES
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Why? I read this HISAGO material and also i got them cheap ....
One more thing, like all unidirectional signal flow cables should be, hose are spot welded - not soldered ....
Now, we can talk about science here day in day out, but make no sense ...
Again, if you have money - go for WBT, if you don't - find the compromise what is best for you ...
•
It was you who suggested that science should be "OTT" on a hi-fi forum. As you are new here I assumed you were unaware of how this forum works.Daniel quinn said:
There may be a reason why nobody sells audio connectors based on measurements. In fact, there could be two reasons: for some the only relevant measurement would be contact resistance (as shown in some datasheets, I believe) and provided this is sufficiently small and stable it doesn't matter what it is; for others no measurement can capture the 'sound' of a connector. So those who know how to make the right measurements know they are irrelevant unless the connector is faulty, while the others
would probably measure the wrong thing anyway.
Many thanks for your kind words. I forgive you.
Sorry but all people involved in electronics buy their connectors based on measurements, to do otherwise is daft.
Even the humble RCA connector has a string of specifications, and even though there are many variations on the theme they do not deviate much from the basic electronic specification. Now maybe some Audiophiles buy things based on the soothing marketing spiel, but most I would hope would have enough sense to look at the specifications (though if only using RCA's then there is not a lot of choice electronically).
Some basic connector specs that may be important:
Size.
Current capability.
Insertion Losses.
Contact resistance.
Bandwidth.
Impedance.
Etc.
Etc.
RCAs about 30mOhm in circuit.....
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Hang on OTT = Over The Top!!!! There are many Audio based forums where science and objective measurement beliefs are banned, obviously they have something to fear from the truth.
But AUDIO REPREDUCTION is basic physic, electronics acoustics etc. how can science be over the top, it is the whole basic for the design of audio reproduction equipement.
LOL
But AUDIO REPREDUCTION is basic physic, electronics acoustics etc. how can science be over the top, it is the whole basic for the design of audio reproduction equipement.
LOL
Of these size is probably the most important.
If some part is the wrong size, then either that part will be too loose, or not fit in.
In both cases the connection will probably end up being "not made".
Why? What did you do wrong that requires you to make an apology?
Oh well you are wrong.
1) Kirchhoff Law (mentioned above), and by the way Ohm's Law, Maxwell, Lenz's and many others , DO apply to Connectors and thus are relevant.
After all, "The current entering any junction in a connector is equal to the current leaving", etc.
Or perhaps you state that when you send 1 A through a wire, and after it passes a connector you end up with 2A or 0.5A on the other end?
I guess not .... because as I said above, Kirchhoff's Law which you find irrelevant in fact does very much apply to connectors.
What's my point?
That although Believers despise Physical Laws when applied to Audio related components .... they still very much apply 😛
To put it other way: Connectors DO obey Physics Laws ... like it or not.
2) measurements are made in connectors, and of course describe and explain differences if found.
But .... but .... they are not mentioned in brochures 😕
Who says they are not?
You don't read many datasheets, do you?
From a Switchcraft connector datasheet:
Of course, (what I mention all the time) , the change from 0.01 ohms to 0.1 ohms contact resistance (hey !!! it's a 1000% variation!! would say the typical misquoter we find so often 🙄 ) is absolutely irrelevant, definitely inaudible, compared to, say, the 10000 ohms we might find an a Power Amp input.
As in being less than 0.0001 dB difference or whatever. (do the Math).
2) back to your exact statements:
Well, the snake oil salesmen will definitely not 😛
The others do, often, if relevant.
In fact what I quoted comes straight from Mouser, a Company which does not exactly spread the Gospel, misinformation, have a Mission in Life, whatever moves Believers, they simply sell stuff and offer measurement results .
Or maybe you think they hire a panel of Golden Ears to listen to connectors and rate them?
Don't think so.
You haven't?
Not my fault.
FWIW Mouser lets you select many products and compare them in the same page.
Showing all measurements, of course.
Oh, they don't even mention soundstage, graininess, focus, Prat, smoothness, etc. .... I wonder why 😀
Maybe you meant "listen" ?
Oh, sorry, I forgot Believers listen with their eyes.
No way they will accurately find differences with parts unless they previously know what they are 🙄
EDIT: wasn't going to mention it, but really I got a little worried on your suggestion about sucking connectors as a comparison way.
I mean, Gold is neutral, Nickel or Chrome reasonably stable, Silver or Tin definitely attacked by saliva.
An older non lead free connector , definitely one using old solder, will have Lead.
If you suck connectors regularly you might be in big trouble.
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