Not boring at all
No, Johan, I should apologize. I had originally tried to add to your query by expanding the question of which was the most efficient Pass amp that one could build since the nature of these "less is more" designs do tend to be a lower power and use more electricity than your average amp by virtue of being class A. I apologize for hijacking your thread.
To answer your question as best as I can, I would recommend you look at the website www.passdiy.com, and click on amplifiers in the left hand column. once there, you'll see a whole list of variations to Nelson's highly regarded Zen power amplifier design. At the bottom of the list is a link to Legacy projects, where you'll find the designs for the amplifiers upon which the aforementioned variations are based. From what I've observed, the general consensus on this board is that the balanced "Son of Zen" power amp and it's mate the "Balanced Zen Line Stage" preamp (aka "Bride of Son of Zen") preamp are excellent places to begin building. That's where I'm starting out, now. Not only are these relatively easy projects to complete (e.g. low parts count, simplicity of design, single gain stage -thus the "Zen" moniker), but they sound really, really good. Way better, in fact, than anything you'd have found at the Wiz or PC Richards, and even many boutique shops, etc...
You can get PC boards for these amps at www.audioxpress.com. There are also these and many of Nelson's Aleph amp pc boards at http://web.vip.hr/pcb-design.vip/index.html
Or, you can build them your own way, making your own pc boards, or using point to point wiring, or whatever. Your imagination's the limit. I'm taking the easy path and just using the prefab pc boards.
You'll find that if you read all the articles on www.passdiy.com, that you'll probably have learned more about audio electronics than several semesters of electronics courses at college will teach you about it. I know that Nelson has really brought me up to speed, anyhow. After you've got the basic building blocks put together, there are hundreds of discussions on this board on how to tweak/modify/further improve your Zen amp. Many you can do with the amp you already have. I know lots of people for instance have "X'ed" their Zen amps. That's the way I'm going to go. I'm referring to adding Nelson's patented Supersymmetry concept to the balanced topography of the amp, which is another very elegant and simple modification that lowers noise and distortion in the amplifier by a factor of... well a whole bunch and then some. I haven't completed my amps, yet, but the raves of those who have built these amplifiers are to be believed.
My friend, you've stumbled into a treasure trove of amplifier building information that I believe to be unparalleled anywhere. The mere fact that the master himself is willing to share his designs and knowledge and experience to the DIY community says volumes about his confidence in his designs. This is of course not to mention his generosity and faith in all of us. You simply *never* see professionals sharing their trade secrets the way Mr. Pass has. Their philosophy is usually one of jealously guarding their secrets, making others buy the product in order to experience the mystery. I tell you, though I can't afford one right now, if I were ever to buy a really high end amp, Nelson has me as a customer. And a customer for life. That's his jealously guarded secret: loyalty and respect.
OK, I'm gushing, I know. But you get the point. You're in the right place, my man.
Read any and all the threads, here on this board, download and read every single article at www.passdiy.com, and read everything on www.passlabs.com (don't forget to download all of the Aleph owner's manuals and service manuals there, too). They all add up to a greater understanding of Nelson's designs (and amplifier design in general) and will aid you in making your decision as to which amp is best for you to tackle.
Oh, and don't forget to grab a copy of his Supersymmetry patent (US Patent # 5376899) It's only a few bucks from www.delphion.com
Hope all of this helps.
Oh, and there are no boring or dumb questions on this board. There are only overexcited fellas like me who might jump in and forget to answer them the first time 'round.
-Erik
Johan_Ch said:
No, Johan, I should apologize. I had originally tried to add to your query by expanding the question of which was the most efficient Pass amp that one could build since the nature of these "less is more" designs do tend to be a lower power and use more electricity than your average amp by virtue of being class A. I apologize for hijacking your thread.
To answer your question as best as I can, I would recommend you look at the website www.passdiy.com, and click on amplifiers in the left hand column. once there, you'll see a whole list of variations to Nelson's highly regarded Zen power amplifier design. At the bottom of the list is a link to Legacy projects, where you'll find the designs for the amplifiers upon which the aforementioned variations are based. From what I've observed, the general consensus on this board is that the balanced "Son of Zen" power amp and it's mate the "Balanced Zen Line Stage" preamp (aka "Bride of Son of Zen") preamp are excellent places to begin building. That's where I'm starting out, now. Not only are these relatively easy projects to complete (e.g. low parts count, simplicity of design, single gain stage -thus the "Zen" moniker), but they sound really, really good. Way better, in fact, than anything you'd have found at the Wiz or PC Richards, and even many boutique shops, etc...
You can get PC boards for these amps at www.audioxpress.com. There are also these and many of Nelson's Aleph amp pc boards at http://web.vip.hr/pcb-design.vip/index.html
Or, you can build them your own way, making your own pc boards, or using point to point wiring, or whatever. Your imagination's the limit. I'm taking the easy path and just using the prefab pc boards.
You'll find that if you read all the articles on www.passdiy.com, that you'll probably have learned more about audio electronics than several semesters of electronics courses at college will teach you about it. I know that Nelson has really brought me up to speed, anyhow. After you've got the basic building blocks put together, there are hundreds of discussions on this board on how to tweak/modify/further improve your Zen amp. Many you can do with the amp you already have. I know lots of people for instance have "X'ed" their Zen amps. That's the way I'm going to go. I'm referring to adding Nelson's patented Supersymmetry concept to the balanced topography of the amp, which is another very elegant and simple modification that lowers noise and distortion in the amplifier by a factor of... well a whole bunch and then some. I haven't completed my amps, yet, but the raves of those who have built these amplifiers are to be believed.
My friend, you've stumbled into a treasure trove of amplifier building information that I believe to be unparalleled anywhere. The mere fact that the master himself is willing to share his designs and knowledge and experience to the DIY community says volumes about his confidence in his designs. This is of course not to mention his generosity and faith in all of us. You simply *never* see professionals sharing their trade secrets the way Mr. Pass has. Their philosophy is usually one of jealously guarding their secrets, making others buy the product in order to experience the mystery. I tell you, though I can't afford one right now, if I were ever to buy a really high end amp, Nelson has me as a customer. And a customer for life. That's his jealously guarded secret: loyalty and respect.
OK, I'm gushing, I know. But you get the point. You're in the right place, my man.
Read any and all the threads, here on this board, download and read every single article at www.passdiy.com, and read everything on www.passlabs.com (don't forget to download all of the Aleph owner's manuals and service manuals there, too). They all add up to a greater understanding of Nelson's designs (and amplifier design in general) and will aid you in making your decision as to which amp is best for you to tackle.
Oh, and don't forget to grab a copy of his Supersymmetry patent (US Patent # 5376899) It's only a few bucks from www.delphion.com
Hope all of this helps.
Oh, and there are no boring or dumb questions on this board. There are only overexcited fellas like me who might jump in and forget to answer them the first time 'round.
-Erik
First: Don't get me wrong. I enjoed the discussion, but I also wanted a awnser to my original question. So, please continue!!
The thing is that I used to drive my ELS speakers with a 300B SE stage, but since I moved to a bigger apartment, I wanted a bit more power and the drive for the dynamic bass element.
A few weeks ago, I hade the oppertunity to listen to a PassLab amp (don't know the model, it just a big black heatsink cube). I have heard a lot about Nelson Pass's constructions over the years, but I have never actully listend to one. The guy that owned the amps then told me that at www.passlabs.com it's possibel to download the schematics some of the products. And from there I ended up at www.passdiy.com.
I also resently discovered that there is a special Pass forum on this site, but I haven't connected the two untill now. I just haven't paid any attention to it before I guess.
So, to make a long storie short. I have build quite a few amps/pre-amps/speakers over the years, but mostly with tubes. So, when I desided to go with a transistor based amp, there was no question about if it should be a PassLab or not, but more of which one to go for.
Any how. The Zen is a good place to start you say. Hmmm... If I should be more precis in question I'm looking more for good sounding watt's then a lot of effect. I just feel that my current 5W is a bit to low, but it's more then enough for the ELS element, but a bit to slim for the bass.
/Johan Ch
The thing is that I used to drive my ELS speakers with a 300B SE stage, but since I moved to a bigger apartment, I wanted a bit more power and the drive for the dynamic bass element.
A few weeks ago, I hade the oppertunity to listen to a PassLab amp (don't know the model, it just a big black heatsink cube). I have heard a lot about Nelson Pass's constructions over the years, but I have never actully listend to one. The guy that owned the amps then told me that at www.passlabs.com it's possibel to download the schematics some of the products. And from there I ended up at www.passdiy.com.
I also resently discovered that there is a special Pass forum on this site, but I haven't connected the two untill now. I just haven't paid any attention to it before I guess.
So, to make a long storie short. I have build quite a few amps/pre-amps/speakers over the years, but mostly with tubes. So, when I desided to go with a transistor based amp, there was no question about if it should be a PassLab or not, but more of which one to go for.
Any how. The Zen is a good place to start you say. Hmmm... If I should be more precis in question I'm looking more for good sounding watt's then a lot of effect. I just feel that my current 5W is a bit to low, but it's more then enough for the ELS element, but a bit to slim for the bass.
/Johan Ch
Johan_Ch,
If the Pass amp you listened to was a Cube than it ws an
Aleph, probably a 3 or 5. If you liked that sound, then i'd say go
for building an Aleph 3. Since you're in Europe you could get
PCB's from PCB-DESIGN
The step up from 5 watts to 30 watts should be a nice power
bump, and the Aleph 3 is just one seriously sweet sounding amp.
Just know that you'll need big heatsinks and a good power supply.
Kristijan's product is top rate. You will be happy if you go this route
If the Pass amp you listened to was a Cube than it ws an
Aleph, probably a 3 or 5. If you liked that sound, then i'd say go
for building an Aleph 3. Since you're in Europe you could get
PCB's from PCB-DESIGN
The step up from 5 watts to 30 watts should be a nice power
bump, and the Aleph 3 is just one seriously sweet sounding amp.
Just know that you'll need big heatsinks and a good power supply.
Kristijan's product is top rate. You will be happy if you go this route
Johan,
Witch one to choose is a very hard question to answer. It’s one I have wasted a lot of time on. One big dilemma which is good and bad is that every time you think you have compared all the options some new pass labs project comes out.
The first thing you’re going to have to figure out is how much power you need. That depends on the efficiency of your speaker. If your amps only put out 10 watts you’ll need a speaker with more them 95 db/watt efficiency. If your speakers are less efficient you’ll need more power to drive them. Whit a 30watt amp, like the A30 or A3, you should have speakers about 90-91 db/watt. The average speaker is about 89 – 87 db/watt efficient, to power that you’ll need 60watts + (ThomasLMcLean, that’s why so many people built the A5). All of these amps are class A so the efficiency should not be higher then 50%. Although the A60 will put out 90watts into a 4 ohm load that’s 90*100/150 = 60% efficient I don’t know why that is. By the way then Duck-Twacy says the Aleph3 (200 watt I believe), he means, for two channels. So it uses 100watts for each amp. In I 5.1 setup using 5 A3’s (you should not use this for your sub) that’s 500 watts of heat (or about the same as one ch of the ax150).
Next, you’ll want to consider what type of sound you looking for. It would be nice if you could listen to them side by side, but for most people that’s not an option, so you have to find reviews from people who have built two or more pass labs projects that see what they say when they compare them. Even at the same wattage amps can sound different. For example if your looking for an amp in the 25 – 35watt range you could build a Zen v4 but if you want better base control you have to build an Aleph3 but if you want better base control you have to build an Aleph30 but if you want better base control you have to build an AX 30. But that’s only in the base area, if you want better mids go with an Aleph or Zen v4 if you want better highs go with an AX.
For now, I think for my own needs, an AX amp of about 50-60 watts would sound the best or it least that’s what I’m getting from all the reviews of people who have built it and compared it to other pass labs projects.
Uli has built a push-pull x amp and posted it on this form. You’ll find it at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10573 He also put some coments comparing it to his A2.
Witch one to choose is a very hard question to answer. It’s one I have wasted a lot of time on. One big dilemma which is good and bad is that every time you think you have compared all the options some new pass labs project comes out.
The first thing you’re going to have to figure out is how much power you need. That depends on the efficiency of your speaker. If your amps only put out 10 watts you’ll need a speaker with more them 95 db/watt efficiency. If your speakers are less efficient you’ll need more power to drive them. Whit a 30watt amp, like the A30 or A3, you should have speakers about 90-91 db/watt. The average speaker is about 89 – 87 db/watt efficient, to power that you’ll need 60watts + (ThomasLMcLean, that’s why so many people built the A5). All of these amps are class A so the efficiency should not be higher then 50%. Although the A60 will put out 90watts into a 4 ohm load that’s 90*100/150 = 60% efficient I don’t know why that is. By the way then Duck-Twacy says the Aleph3 (200 watt I believe), he means, for two channels. So it uses 100watts for each amp. In I 5.1 setup using 5 A3’s (you should not use this for your sub) that’s 500 watts of heat (or about the same as one ch of the ax150).
Next, you’ll want to consider what type of sound you looking for. It would be nice if you could listen to them side by side, but for most people that’s not an option, so you have to find reviews from people who have built two or more pass labs projects that see what they say when they compare them. Even at the same wattage amps can sound different. For example if your looking for an amp in the 25 – 35watt range you could build a Zen v4 but if you want better base control you have to build an Aleph3 but if you want better base control you have to build an Aleph30 but if you want better base control you have to build an AX 30. But that’s only in the base area, if you want better mids go with an Aleph or Zen v4 if you want better highs go with an AX.
For now, I think for my own needs, an AX amp of about 50-60 watts would sound the best or it least that’s what I’m getting from all the reviews of people who have built it and compared it to other pass labs projects.
Uli has built a push-pull x amp and posted it on this form. You’ll find it at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10573 He also put some coments comparing it to his A2.
The best Pass amp is the one you build yourself and like the best. You have to build more than one.
Johan_Ch said:
My best could be your worst... If I am a lucky man to have another chance to choose one among 10 pretty girls, I might take the one looking like Zen-Lite. I would make it soon or later.
Like who is the most beautiful woman (excluding Ms. Pass) orMikeW said:The best Pass amp is the one you build yourself and like the best. You have to build more than one.
maybe what's the best wine?
Could you clarify on Bass Control?
LBHajdu,
I'm not sure I follow the above passage you wrote. Are you saying that each successive amplifier has better bass control than the one before it? Or did you mean that they are all equally better at bass control than the Zen V4?
-Erik.
LBHajdu said:
LBHajdu,
I'm not sure I follow the above passage you wrote. Are you saying that each successive amplifier has better bass control than the one before it? Or did you mean that they are all equally better at bass control than the Zen V4?
-Erik.
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