planet10 said:
Sure I´ve heard some top notch 300B amps that was nice, but they are almost as much soundprocessors as amplifiers IMO. Vinyl can also sound good but hardly transparent.
A single number distortion don´t tell all, but distortion "must" be low no matter how you twist it IMO. And as with drivers even amps has developed so you do not need to chose between the figures you mention. You can have a low distortin amp with dominant even and low order harmonics AND low IM dist. which you never get with a high distortion device.
What many seem to forget or ignore is that while you see "only" 2nd order at sine wave measurements, what do you think happens with music that contains a zillion notes simultaneously..? You will have distortion products, harmonic and non harmonic all over the place. This gives a "fat" "rich" sound that many love but I do not.
I have used such gear both in playback and recording. I used a DW Fearn tube mic preamps (single end direct heated triods in class A of course) an tried it with varuious setting from "clean" to "rich" (read plenty even order dist with all that comes with it as explained above) I clearly prefered the clean setting. Good gear sound great without extra spices. 😉
BTW, I have no feedback loops or opamps anywhere in my rig. Balanced Single end class a as I/V stage and output buffer in SACD/CDP and feedbackfree class A power amps. 🙂
/Peter
Steve
over-analyzing?
That’s ok, it may well appear that I’m over-analyzing. (I’ve been curious about intelligibility for a while and was sharing newly acquired learning).
You mentioning both electrostats & ribbons gives me good references.
Are you suggesting that the Fostex really sounds in the same league as electrostats and (or) ribbons?
If so, I’m just about sold (I like to decide slowly). 😉
Regards,
Rick
over-analyzing?
That’s ok, it may well appear that I’m over-analyzing. (I’ve been curious about intelligibility for a while and was sharing newly acquired learning).
You mentioning both electrostats & ribbons gives me good references.
Are you suggesting that the Fostex really sounds in the same league as electrostats and (or) ribbons?
If so, I’m just about sold (I like to decide slowly). 😉
Regards,
Rick
Pan posted:
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio
The only way to eliminate the effects of BL, Cms, and Le nonlinearities is to reduce excursion. These effects arise from motion of the driver, and a low pass filter will not significantly affect excursion. A high pass filter will, however.
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio
Steve M
You don’t happen to live in Victoria, so that I might come and have a listen??
Regards,
Rick
🙂
You don’t happen to live in Victoria, so that I might come and have a listen??
Regards,
Rick
🙂
Member
Joined 2002
Posted by dave
> I live in Victoria, but it might be a bit of a trip
I think your Victoria wins on reliable weather.
Here it’s flippin (Celsius) 32 one day, 19 the next (Farenheit 90 one day, 66 the next).
If I ever get to BC, I’ll give you a bell.
Rick
🙂
> I live in Victoria, but it might be a bit of a trip
I think your Victoria wins on reliable weather.
Here it’s flippin (Celsius) 32 one day, 19 the next (Farenheit 90 one day, 66 the next).
If I ever get to BC, I’ll give you a bell.
Rick
🙂
rick57 said:I think your Victoria wins on reliable weather.
Here it’s flippin (Celsius) 32 one day, 19 the next (Farenheit 90 one day, 66 the next).
If I ever get to BC, I’ll give you a bell.
Do come visit 🙂
Our weather can flip-flop quite a bit too... just recently one day 0 next day 14 (it is still winter after all) 0 is cold for arounf here thou. In summer it rarely hits 32, 25 would normally be considered hot.
dave
Mmm with your 
a good climate for er growing a moss garden, or pines
I might even get to see the Original Frugalphile Certificate.
a good climate for er growing a moss garden, or pines I might even get to see the Original Frugalphile Certificate.
DanWiggins said:
Yes, that´s why I (again) recommend to lowpass below the points that are acutally very high in distortion due to the amplification of the breakup. I don´t know if you understand what I desperately try to say here 🙂. Take a look at some stiff drivers and you´ll see peaks in the distortion curve at 1/2 and 1/3 of the major breakup. Of course since most only spec 2nd and 3rd harmonics one should not forget that higher order products from lower frecuencies also will coincide with the breakup and will be amplified by it. BUT these higher order harmonics will be of MUCH lower magnitude than the lower order products from the point closer up to the breakup, and therefore will be of less concern. Of course it will be a problem when pushing the driver very hard, which is foolish to do in a high performance system and therefore we dimension the system properly and use a highpass.
BUT a highpass will NOT reduce the peaks in distortion higher up closer to the major breakup, and therefore we need to reduce the output at those frequrncies in order not to excite the breakup.
Only way to reduce the distortion as you say, is to reduce excursion, but if you do not do that by lowpassing the driver the only way would be to turn down the volume... not a good solution to deal with distoriton IMO 😉. Also within the x-max of the driver the relationship between distortion and excursion is not as easy and clear as it may seem.
Take a look at the W22 that SL use in Orion, it has a peak of 1.5% of so 3rd harmonics at 1.5k due to the fact that this harmonic coincide with the major breakup at 4.5k... of course there is only one way to deal with this and it is to lowpass the driver since no highpass in the world will affect the driver in that range.
All drivers has a optimum range to be used in, in that range a stiff driver (W22) will perform better than a soft driver. Between 100Hz and 1k I have still not seen a driver to match the low distortion of W22 for example.
Did I do better at explaining myself now?
🙂
/Peter
Peter
You are commendably patient.
I am no techie (would that I were a little more so), but I see your point, and feel that the real skill and real appeal of particularly *DIY speaker design is matching the drivers and implementation to the exact requirement, including optimum range.
The commercial designer should produce the design that will produce the best number of sales in a target market, for the maximum profit. Nothing wrong with that.
But the DIYer knows what music they listen to, the room and desired SPL, the amp, etc and can optimise the speaker etc to that requirement. So to return to your point, knowing the exact strengths of drivers is part of why we’re here.
And on that note, I think the Seas mag cones are in the highest brackets for music, where much of the energy is below 1000 Hz.
But (re-reading the intelligibility stuff) while the centre of voice energy is also below 1000 Hz, unless the person is shouting; the critical area for intelligibility is where the consonants are, c. 1500 – 3000.
I today learnt of another set of contenders for the ultimate centre speaker (hopefully there won’t be many more
): the Seas coaxial drivers.
Is coaxial a good thing? Coincidence is good, yes; and directivity in the crossover frequency region is pretty good . .
The smallest, the 4.5 inch www.madisound.com/seas/h487.pdf can be crossed between 3 – 4 kHz, but the cone is polypropylene.
The larger ones eg newer 6.5" T18RE/XTVFC, discussed here www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-46605.html have an XP cone, whatever that is (?), but are crossed between 2 – 3 kHz.
Anyone heard any of these?
Dan, you may want to be devil’s advocate, vs full range like the CSS.
Cheers
You are commendably patient.
I am no techie (would that I were a little more so), but I see your point, and feel that the real skill and real appeal of particularly *DIY speaker design is matching the drivers and implementation to the exact requirement, including optimum range.
The commercial designer should produce the design that will produce the best number of sales in a target market, for the maximum profit. Nothing wrong with that.
But the DIYer knows what music they listen to, the room and desired SPL, the amp, etc and can optimise the speaker etc to that requirement. So to return to your point, knowing the exact strengths of drivers is part of why we’re here.
And on that note, I think the Seas mag cones are in the highest brackets for music, where much of the energy is below 1000 Hz.
But (re-reading the intelligibility stuff) while the centre of voice energy is also below 1000 Hz, unless the person is shouting; the critical area for intelligibility is where the consonants are, c. 1500 – 3000.
I today learnt of another set of contenders for the ultimate centre speaker (hopefully there won’t be many more
): the Seas coaxial drivers. Is coaxial a good thing? Coincidence is good, yes; and directivity in the crossover frequency region is pretty good . .
The smallest, the 4.5 inch www.madisound.com/seas/h487.pdf can be crossed between 3 – 4 kHz, but the cone is polypropylene.
The larger ones eg newer 6.5" T18RE/XTVFC, discussed here www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-46605.html have an XP cone, whatever that is (?), but are crossed between 2 – 3 kHz.
Anyone heard any of these?
Dan, you may want to be devil’s advocate, vs full range like the CSS.
Cheers
Rick,
you may check out some info on the Revolution speaker from Finish company Gradient. They use a fiberglass coax from Seas in an acoustic resistance cabinet which gives a very good cardioid polarpattern. This is matched to dual dipole 12" Peerless below.
They also use this driver in other speaekrs.
I believe this would be a very good solution for a HT speaker and many do use this approach.
www.gradient.fi
/Peter
you may check out some info on the Revolution speaker from Finish company Gradient. They use a fiberglass coax from Seas in an acoustic resistance cabinet which gives a very good cardioid polarpattern. This is matched to dual dipole 12" Peerless below.
They also use this driver in other speaekrs.
I believe this would be a very good solution for a HT speaker and many do use this approach.
www.gradient.fi
/Peter
Just as a thought...
Why don't you just get a speaker you know and like, and just build a little switchable parametric with, say 3 db boost between 1200 and 1500Hz?
Why don't you just get a speaker you know and like, and just build a little switchable parametric with, say 3 db boost between 1200 and 1500Hz?
EQ has been suggested by several now to increase the intelligibifgklgi... of the driver 🙂 but whatabout production/mixing/mastering?
Normally the engineers have manipulated the mix to give as good and clear result as posible, further manipulating the response in the reproduction chain only increase the risk of listening fatigue due to harsh sound... especially if this approach is used with drivers of "less" quality which will have higher distortion.
Just my thought 🙂
/Peter
Normally the engineers have manipulated the mix to give as good and clear result as posible, further manipulating the response in the reproduction chain only increase the risk of listening fatigue due to harsh sound... especially if this approach is used with drivers of "less" quality which will have higher distortion.
Just my thought 🙂
/Peter
Pan
(You seem to spend as much time here as I do) 😀
Gradient are doing interesting things. As a SL Phoenix builder, I’d love to hear the part cardioid Gradient Revolution.
The Revolution is way beyond my budget, but I see the fibreglass Seas are sold at www.diyparadiso.com/price/stock-speakers.htm for sensible prices.
I wonder how the fibreglass cones would compare with the Seas XP (?) or paper CSS. 😕
Cheers
(You seem to spend as much time here as I do) 😀
Gradient are doing interesting things. As a SL Phoenix builder, I’d love to hear the part cardioid Gradient Revolution.
The Revolution is way beyond my budget, but I see the fibreglass Seas are sold at www.diyparadiso.com/price/stock-speakers.htm for sensible prices.
I wonder how the fibreglass cones would compare with the Seas XP (?) or paper CSS. 😕
Cheers
Pan
Having mixed both live and recorded sound, I know that you can actually get a way with a lot of EQ on human voice without causing that sort of problem. Music however, is a different kettle of fish. 😉
Having mixed both live and recorded sound, I know that you can actually get a way with a lot of EQ on human voice without causing that sort of problem. Music however, is a different kettle of fish. 😉
> Normally the engineers have manipulated the mix to give as good and clear result as possible, further manipulating the response in the reproduction chain only increase the risk of listening fatigue
Normally? Nice if this were so. Often perhaps?
Pinkmouse
(Sorry, I missed your posts for two ticks).
I think switchable/ adjustable EQ is a very good idea. I would have thought the range to boost for speech clarity would be 1500-2500 Hz, but you’ve done this - not that high is better?
To have the optimum driver in the first place is IMO even more important. But both is better.
Cheers
Normally? Nice if this were so. Often perhaps?
Pinkmouse
(Sorry, I missed your posts for two ticks).
I think switchable/ adjustable EQ is a very good idea. I would have thought the range to boost for speech clarity would be 1500-2500 Hz, but you’ve done this - not that high is better?
To have the optimum driver in the first place is IMO even more important. But both is better.
Cheers
pinkmouse said:
You got some points there and yes, I was more music oriented when I wrote that. 🙂
That said I am personally senstive to EQ on voices and only when applied with a lot of care think it´s ok. I have a pair of flat microphones (Earthworks QTC1) that captures thing as it is and it sounds best and most natural to me. Of course in a mix the situation becomes different than with solo or simple material.
/Peter
Here is a paper cone that does well in terms of distortion (100 to 1kHz):
http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2012h.pdf
The distortion graphs were taken at > 105 db(30W), so we cannot compare them directly to the Seas W22 Magnesium. I just wonder what the Seas would look like at similar SPL.
It probably tells us that cone material is a part of the equation and that motor distortion should also be kept in mind. And then there's thermal compression...Of course energy storage is also an issue and the Seas may very well be much better in this respect.
Subjectively, a big high efficiency paper mid like this sounds less strained to me when hitting peaks on music with a wide dynamic range, like some symphonic works.
Maybe Dan Wiggins can step in and comment.
http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2012h.pdf
The distortion graphs were taken at > 105 db(30W), so we cannot compare them directly to the Seas W22 Magnesium. I just wonder what the Seas would look like at similar SPL.
It probably tells us that cone material is a part of the equation and that motor distortion should also be kept in mind. And then there's thermal compression...Of course energy storage is also an issue and the Seas may very well be much better in this respect.
Subjectively, a big high efficiency paper mid like this sounds less strained to me when hitting peaks on music with a wide dynamic range, like some symphonic works.
Maybe Dan Wiggins can step in and comment.
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