Alright, I caved and bought a pair of 18sound NSD1095N compression drivers and the can't-do-without-it XT1086 waveguide after hearing them play at a local DIY event.
I am however still looking for a good 10 to 12" midbass driver to pair them with, either for use in a 2-way or 2.5-way configuration. I've been eyeing the AE TD10M of which a 2.5-way configuration would help with keeping the low-end excursion in check. Other alternatives I've been looking at are:
FaitalPro 10HP1020 10"
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 10HP1020
B&C 10NDL64
B&C Speakers
18sound 10NMB420
0019 10NMB420 - 10NMB420 : Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers
An alternative would be a single 12" in a 2-way configuration. For example one of the below noted 12" drivers:
18sound 12W700
0020 12W700 - Coaxials 12W700 : Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers
18sound 12ND830
0014 12ND830 - Low Frequency 12ND830 : Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers
18sound 12ND930
http://www.eighteensound.com/PRODUCTS456/Products123/CatID/25/ProdID=47#.VofE7vkrIdU
Are there any other drivers out there that would be a suitable alternative? I would like to use drivers that are currently in production, and not NOS or used drivers, price isn't really a concern for the right drivers.
Thoughts?
I am however still looking for a good 10 to 12" midbass driver to pair them with, either for use in a 2-way or 2.5-way configuration. I've been eyeing the AE TD10M of which a 2.5-way configuration would help with keeping the low-end excursion in check. Other alternatives I've been looking at are:
FaitalPro 10HP1020 10"
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 10HP1020
B&C 10NDL64
B&C Speakers
18sound 10NMB420
0019 10NMB420 - 10NMB420 : Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers
An alternative would be a single 12" in a 2-way configuration. For example one of the below noted 12" drivers:
18sound 12W700
0020 12W700 - Coaxials 12W700 : Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers
18sound 12ND830
0014 12ND830 - Low Frequency 12ND830 : Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers
18sound 12ND930
http://www.eighteensound.com/PRODUCTS456/Products123/CatID/25/ProdID=47#.VofE7vkrIdU
Are there any other drivers out there that would be a suitable alternative? I would like to use drivers that are currently in production, and not NOS or used drivers, price isn't really a concern for the right drivers.
Thoughts?
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Santa really, really likes you!
The 18Sound datasheets would suggest that a 1.8-2Khz crossover plus 10db high frequency correction/boost is required for the XT1086 with NSD1095N. Only a few 10" midbass can provide a smooth 80-degree polar pattern at 1.8-2Khz. The 18Sound 10NM420 might be the easiest for you to purchase.
BEST--The TD10M is the best I have used. Large copper shorting rings on the pole piece to keep Le low.
USED MARKET--Older 10" JBL 2012H would work. Large copper shorting rings on the pole piece to keep Le low.
SAME BRAND--The 18Sound 10NMB420 equalized also looks good with one Al demodulating ring.
BARGAIN--Faital 10FH530 looks acceptable. has Al demodulating rings on pole piece
From the datasheets:
Both the B&C 10NDL64 and the Faital 10HP1020 crap out at 2Khz with cone resonances and dramatic SPL drop, and do not look optimal.
The 18Sound datasheets would suggest that a 1.8-2Khz crossover plus 10db high frequency correction/boost is required for the XT1086 with NSD1095N. Only a few 10" midbass can provide a smooth 80-degree polar pattern at 1.8-2Khz. The 18Sound 10NM420 might be the easiest for you to purchase.
BEST--The TD10M is the best I have used. Large copper shorting rings on the pole piece to keep Le low.
USED MARKET--Older 10" JBL 2012H would work. Large copper shorting rings on the pole piece to keep Le low.
SAME BRAND--The 18Sound 10NMB420 equalized also looks good with one Al demodulating ring.
BARGAIN--Faital 10FH530 looks acceptable. has Al demodulating rings on pole piece
From the datasheets:
Both the B&C 10NDL64 and the Faital 10HP1020 crap out at 2Khz with cone resonances and dramatic SPL drop, and do not look optimal.
Attached the SPL measurements of the N1095N compression driver on the XT1086 horn measured at 2meters which was used to estimate that a 1.8Khz Xover frequency might be desirable if all-passive component crossovers are used.
I have also found examples where more aggressive crossover circuits provided good N1095N compression driver on the XT1086 horn final results at 1,600Hz.
The attached polar plot of the JBL 2123H confirms that there are 10" midbass which produce the 80-degree polars required by the XT1086 horn at ~1800Hz.
I have also found examples where more aggressive crossover circuits provided good N1095N compression driver on the XT1086 horn final results at 1,600Hz.
The attached polar plot of the JBL 2123H confirms that there are 10" midbass which produce the 80-degree polars required by the XT1086 horn at ~1800Hz.
Attachments
@LineSource,
Thanks so much for your insightful reply!
In the meantime I've been scouring the web looking for suitable drivers and I have found some other candidates that seem to fit the bill:
10" midbass drivers
FaitalPro 10FH530, 10FH520, 10FH500
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 10FH530
All these drivers have similar parameters and if the frequency response plot is to be believed they can be used with a ~2kHz crossover point. The FH500 appears to be a non-coated version of the FH520, whereas the FH530 is a ferrite magnet version of the FH520 (both all-weather designs).
12" midbass drivers
FaitalPro 12FH530, 12FH520
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 12FH520
Both these drivers seem very capable as well, they feature a well controlled HF response that should be easily crossed over to the CD.
The thing I wonder about is whether the frequency response plots are taken from a IEC baffle (http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/IEC baffle.jpg) and hence can be compared directly? I guess I'll be shooting an email to FaitalPro to get some answers.
The thing that surprises me, having worked with HiFi drivers almost exclusively, that PA driver manufacturers are very scarce with providing actual measured data. This is not what I'm used to, most HiFi driver manufacturers provide reliable and useful data for their drivers including frequency/impedance response plots, waterfall plots and distortion data.
That also motivates me to stick to PA driver manufacturers that at least provide some info other than raw T&S parameters. Perhaps this means I'm missing out on some gems that are lurking in the product portfolios of other manufacturers, but I don't have the luxury to buy and measure each individual driver that seems suitable.
Make sense?
Thanks so much for your insightful reply!
In the meantime I've been scouring the web looking for suitable drivers and I have found some other candidates that seem to fit the bill:
10" midbass drivers
FaitalPro 10FH530, 10FH520, 10FH500
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 10FH530
All these drivers have similar parameters and if the frequency response plot is to be believed they can be used with a ~2kHz crossover point. The FH500 appears to be a non-coated version of the FH520, whereas the FH530 is a ferrite magnet version of the FH520 (both all-weather designs).
12" midbass drivers
FaitalPro 12FH530, 12FH520
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 12FH520
Both these drivers seem very capable as well, they feature a well controlled HF response that should be easily crossed over to the CD.
The thing I wonder about is whether the frequency response plots are taken from a IEC baffle (http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/IEC baffle.jpg) and hence can be compared directly? I guess I'll be shooting an email to FaitalPro to get some answers.
The thing that surprises me, having worked with HiFi drivers almost exclusively, that PA driver manufacturers are very scarce with providing actual measured data. This is not what I'm used to, most HiFi driver manufacturers provide reliable and useful data for their drivers including frequency/impedance response plots, waterfall plots and distortion data.
That also motivates me to stick to PA driver manufacturers that at least provide some info other than raw T&S parameters. Perhaps this means I'm missing out on some gems that are lurking in the product portfolios of other manufacturers, but I don't have the luxury to buy and measure each individual driver that seems suitable.
Make sense?
I am currently looking for a PA midbass or midrange as well. I was also having alook at the 10nmb420.
There is one German site (Jobst Audio) that supplies information on two PA tops using the 10nmb420. I would say that they don't look bad distortion- and FR- wise, but you can't get very low with these. Text in German only.
Here is the 1x10" top:
JM-sat10 (MT-101) - PA Kompaktes Multifunktions-Topteil | Jobst-Audio - Tontechnik
and here is the 2x10" top:
JM-sat210 (MT-210) - PA Clusterbares Topteil | Jobst-Audio - Tontechnik
The larger brother of the 10nmb420 is the 12nmb420 and differs not only in size but also has a copper cap over its pole.
Another 18s 12" that has found some use in two-way HiFi applications ist the 12nlw9300 which is used in the Duevel Sirius
loudspeakers - woofers
and in the Unison Max 1 (they seemingly applied some lacquer) together with your waveguide:
Unison Hifi, High End - Malibran - Lautsprecher
Regards
Charles
There is one German site (Jobst Audio) that supplies information on two PA tops using the 10nmb420. I would say that they don't look bad distortion- and FR- wise, but you can't get very low with these. Text in German only.
Here is the 1x10" top:
JM-sat10 (MT-101) - PA Kompaktes Multifunktions-Topteil | Jobst-Audio - Tontechnik
and here is the 2x10" top:
JM-sat210 (MT-210) - PA Clusterbares Topteil | Jobst-Audio - Tontechnik
The larger brother of the 10nmb420 is the 12nmb420 and differs not only in size but also has a copper cap over its pole.
Another 18s 12" that has found some use in two-way HiFi applications ist the 12nlw9300 which is used in the Duevel Sirius
loudspeakers - woofers
and in the Unison Max 1 (they seemingly applied some lacquer) together with your waveguide:
Unison Hifi, High End - Malibran - Lautsprecher
Regards
Charles
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From the Faital datasheets: 10FH500 looks like a good midbass for the XT1086 horn at ~1600Hz
10FH500 has Qtc=0.25 with Bl=15.5 with Le=0.64mH with Mms=50.1g
10FH520 has Qtc=0.41 with Bl=23.5 with Le=1.7mH with Mms=44.5g
10FH530 has Qtc=0.25 with Bl=19.5 with Le=0.8mH with Mms=47g
The 94db/W Acoustic Elegance TD10M has 80-degree polar between 1600Hz-1800Hz Xover for XT1086 horn.
Measurement data confirms that the 96db/W Acoustic Elegance TD12M has 80-degree polar @1600Hz to match the XT1086 horn. Needs steep Xover.
10FH500 has Qtc=0.25 with Bl=15.5 with Le=0.64mH with Mms=50.1g
10FH520 has Qtc=0.41 with Bl=23.5 with Le=1.7mH with Mms=44.5g
10FH530 has Qtc=0.25 with Bl=19.5 with Le=0.8mH with Mms=47g
The 94db/W Acoustic Elegance TD10M has 80-degree polar between 1600Hz-1800Hz Xover for XT1086 horn.
Measurement data confirms that the 96db/W Acoustic Elegance TD12M has 80-degree polar @1600Hz to match the XT1086 horn. Needs steep Xover.
@Charles,
Good to hear from you, I remember our conversations via PM and email years ago, I hope this message finds you well.
I've done some further research on the 10NMB420 and by looking at the FR plot it is clear that it lacks output in the lower bass region, so I'm expecting it to sound 'thin' when using a passive XO, obviously when using an active XO with a DSP you can boost that region if desired.
Good to hear from you, I remember our conversations via PM and email years ago, I hope this message finds you well.
I've done some further research on the 10NMB420 and by looking at the FR plot it is clear that it lacks output in the lower bass region, so I'm expecting it to sound 'thin' when using a passive XO, obviously when using an active XO with a DSP you can boost that region if desired.
@LineSource,
Thanks for the feedback once more.
I've decided to abandon the idea of using a 10" driver, for the simple reason the XT1086 horn requires a baffle of at least ~280mm wide. Hence I can just as well use two 12" woofers instead in a TWW configuration, set up as a 2.5-way, as the baffle will be only slightly larger with the 12" drivers.
So my focus has shifted exclusively to 12" drivers, and again I have found some suitable candidates from FaitalPro:
12FH500 has Qts=0.25 with Bl=17.5 with Le=0.83mH with Mms=56.0g
12FH510 has Qts=0.24 with Bl=18.9 with Le=0.90mH with Mms=61.0g
12FH520 has Qtc=0.29 with Bl=17.3 with Le=0.74mH with Mms=56.0g
12FH530 has Qtc=0.26 with Bl=18.9 with Le=0.80mH with Mms=67.0g
By the looks of it the 12FH520 is the most suitable for my application, allowing for a ~1.6kHz crossover point.
FaitalPro 12FH520
http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/12FH520/8/12FH520_datasheet_8.pdf
Thanks for the feedback once more.
I've decided to abandon the idea of using a 10" driver, for the simple reason the XT1086 horn requires a baffle of at least ~280mm wide. Hence I can just as well use two 12" woofers instead in a TWW configuration, set up as a 2.5-way, as the baffle will be only slightly larger with the 12" drivers.
So my focus has shifted exclusively to 12" drivers, and again I have found some suitable candidates from FaitalPro:
12FH500 has Qts=0.25 with Bl=17.5 with Le=0.83mH with Mms=56.0g
12FH510 has Qts=0.24 with Bl=18.9 with Le=0.90mH with Mms=61.0g
12FH520 has Qtc=0.29 with Bl=17.3 with Le=0.74mH with Mms=56.0g
12FH530 has Qtc=0.26 with Bl=18.9 with Le=0.80mH with Mms=67.0g
By the looks of it the 12FH520 is the most suitable for my application, allowing for a ~1.6kHz crossover point.
FaitalPro 12FH520
http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/12FH520/8/12FH520_datasheet_8.pdf
From the Faital datasheets, the 12FH520 should be a good partner for the 18sound NSD1095N compression driver and XT1086 waveguide.
The XT1086 is ~10.25" x 8.5", AND a 1600Hz wavelength is 8.5", SO where the XT1086 is placed relative to the top edge of the cabinet will affect the crossover circuits(DSP program). e.g. putting the XT1086 about 1" under the top cabinet edge should simplify 1600Hz tweeter crossover circuit. Putting a large radius on your cabinet edges around the XT1086 can help produce a smooth response.
I had the 12FH520 on my WinISD and ran quick sims:
---sealed F3 ~136Hz in 0.5cuft
---ported F3 ~72Hz in 0.7cuft 3" pipe 4" long
The 12FH520 is a true midbass. You will need to use different drivers for deep bass. The well discussed BMF-1 cabinets from Tweek Geeks maintains a narrow front baffle by putting two side-side woofers near the floor. With passive Xover, two 12" REAL woofers below the 12FH520 is possible with a 44" height for the horn center. With active crossover, one HUSKY 12" woofer and a BIG amp can also make deep bass.
PASSIVE CROSSOVER: Midbass -to- Horn_Tweeter time alignment is very important, and it is worth some research to study "quasi-optimal" crossovers, like the LeCleach work, which use 2-different slopes to improve phase and time alignment with long horns.
"Quasi-optimal" crossover for high-efficiency loudspeaker system
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...sover-high-efficiency-loudspeaker-system.html
The XT1086 is ~10.25" x 8.5", AND a 1600Hz wavelength is 8.5", SO where the XT1086 is placed relative to the top edge of the cabinet will affect the crossover circuits(DSP program). e.g. putting the XT1086 about 1" under the top cabinet edge should simplify 1600Hz tweeter crossover circuit. Putting a large radius on your cabinet edges around the XT1086 can help produce a smooth response.
I had the 12FH520 on my WinISD and ran quick sims:
---sealed F3 ~136Hz in 0.5cuft
---ported F3 ~72Hz in 0.7cuft 3" pipe 4" long
The 12FH520 is a true midbass. You will need to use different drivers for deep bass. The well discussed BMF-1 cabinets from Tweek Geeks maintains a narrow front baffle by putting two side-side woofers near the floor. With passive Xover, two 12" REAL woofers below the 12FH520 is possible with a 44" height for the horn center. With active crossover, one HUSKY 12" woofer and a BIG amp can also make deep bass.
PASSIVE CROSSOVER: Midbass -to- Horn_Tweeter time alignment is very important, and it is worth some research to study "quasi-optimal" crossovers, like the LeCleach work, which use 2-different slopes to improve phase and time alignment with long horns.
"Quasi-optimal" crossover for high-efficiency loudspeaker system
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...sover-high-efficiency-loudspeaker-system.html
Attachments
@LineSource,
Appreciate the detailed feedback, thanks!
And yes, I've also ran the numbers on the 12FH520, it is a little shy on bass, hence the 2nd 12FH520 that'll be run as a 2.5-way. This way around I compensate for the baffle-step and also have two 12" cones working together in the lower regions, that should help with providing enough 'thump' in the low-mids/bass region.
For deep bass I have two cabinets with two 18" drivers (FaitalPro 18XL1600) driven by two 2kW amplifiers in the works, so I'm confident that'll offer enough output for my bass needs. These will be equalized in the room and is the only part I'll be using an active setup and DSP with.
For the horn I'm still debating with myself on whether I should stick to the XT1086, or go with the ever so popular QSC PL-000446GP, or a SEOS-15 cut to size (trimmed edges).
I've ordered all these horns so I can evaluate and measure them. I also opted to buy a set of BMS 4552ND drivers as they're getting constant good reviews and I'd like to compare them to the NSD1095Ns to see how they stack up.
Thanks for the 'quasi-optimal' crossover suggestions, I was just contemplating the other day what effect the long horn throat would have on the phase-alignment of the drivers, I guess I'll need to read through that topic and do some homework.
Appreciate the detailed feedback, thanks!
And yes, I've also ran the numbers on the 12FH520, it is a little shy on bass, hence the 2nd 12FH520 that'll be run as a 2.5-way. This way around I compensate for the baffle-step and also have two 12" cones working together in the lower regions, that should help with providing enough 'thump' in the low-mids/bass region.
For deep bass I have two cabinets with two 18" drivers (FaitalPro 18XL1600) driven by two 2kW amplifiers in the works, so I'm confident that'll offer enough output for my bass needs. These will be equalized in the room and is the only part I'll be using an active setup and DSP with.
For the horn I'm still debating with myself on whether I should stick to the XT1086, or go with the ever so popular QSC PL-000446GP, or a SEOS-15 cut to size (trimmed edges).
I've ordered all these horns so I can evaluate and measure them. I also opted to buy a set of BMS 4552ND drivers as they're getting constant good reviews and I'd like to compare them to the NSD1095Ns to see how they stack up.
Thanks for the 'quasi-optimal' crossover suggestions, I was just contemplating the other day what effect the long horn throat would have on the phase-alignment of the drivers, I guess I'll need to read through that topic and do some homework.
Yes, I've ordered the 12FH520 drivers a couple of weeks ago and have taken delivery. Haven't had time to do anything with them yet, but I'll make sure to update this topic when I do.
Thanks for taken an interest!
SSassen,
Very keen to see how this comes out. Should be a little like the Unison Max1 with more attitude. Keep us updated🙂
Very keen to see how this comes out. Should be a little like the Unison Max1 with more attitude. Keep us updated🙂
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