Well, the noise is fairly easy to calculate. Would you split the gain evenly between each stage?
SY, i have a feeling that inside your outer hard scientist shell is a sensitive music lover so please do not look at my contribution as attack to your priciples. I just whould like to put forward that we do not live in a perfect world and that the result is more important than theory, at least this is my impression. I heard a lot of systems put together by well trained engineers that did not leave a lasting impression on me.
Some theories help to get much better results than blind following by common beliefs. 😉
I don't view it that way at all. I have found discussions with you to be very straightforward.
I do suffer the disadvantage of hearing much more live music than recorded, so perhaps this prejudices my view of what's important and what isn't.
Let's see... Pin 5 is filament on 9-pin socket... What is pin 8? 🙄
I doubt that increase of phase intermodulation would add transparency to the sound reproduced by the stage. Hmmm... No, I know 100% that it will add a garbage that sounds like a dusty blanket on singer's mouth.
Well, i will think about this gain distribution more but it´s quite late here in Europe.
Just out of my head i whould say that the gain should slow down a bit at the end of the chain. Solving a 10 dimensional matrix is not easy. I reached my capabilities in the 9th dimension when i studied telecomunications in the 70th.
Just out of my head i whould say that the gain should slow down a bit at the end of the chain. Solving a 10 dimensional matrix is not easy. I reached my capabilities in the 9th dimension when i studied telecomunications in the 70th.
The NE5534 can be externally compensated for gain of 1 or do you now play tricks on me Wavebourn ? Anyway, this is a tube thread so my humble contribution is a bit off topic.
What is phase intermodulation and how do you measure it ?
What is phase intermodulation and how do you measure it ?
Hello don’t tell anyone,
The system that I listen to at the bench while I am soldering the current best vacuum creation is an unmodified Sony 5 CD changer, sometimes Kenwood tuner. A single tube grounded cathode (my first ever tube line stage) with a TubeCad stepped attenuator driving surplus Alesis bi-amped chip amplifiers LM3886’s. There is also a home cooked NE5532 crossover to a subwoofer. LM4562's are fun too. I enjoy the music.
I have built plenty of op-amp things; line stages, RIAA networks and headphone amplifiers. I have a Behringer DSP active crossover thing and Rane MA-6 (900 watt six pack) for the HT.
When it is late and the house is quiet I prefer all tubes and vinyl.
Today the best line stage tube is a JAN GE 5670. Why, it is off the beaten path, it is cheap, it is built to the highest milspecs and I have a large shoe box full. Plus I have the Millett PC sound card interface and Audiotester to figure out.
DT
All just for fun!
The system that I listen to at the bench while I am soldering the current best vacuum creation is an unmodified Sony 5 CD changer, sometimes Kenwood tuner. A single tube grounded cathode (my first ever tube line stage) with a TubeCad stepped attenuator driving surplus Alesis bi-amped chip amplifiers LM3886’s. There is also a home cooked NE5532 crossover to a subwoofer. LM4562's are fun too. I enjoy the music.
I have built plenty of op-amp things; line stages, RIAA networks and headphone amplifiers. I have a Behringer DSP active crossover thing and Rane MA-6 (900 watt six pack) for the HT.
When it is late and the house is quiet I prefer all tubes and vinyl.
Today the best line stage tube is a JAN GE 5670. Why, it is off the beaten path, it is cheap, it is built to the highest milspecs and I have a large shoe box full. Plus I have the Millett PC sound card interface and Audiotester to figure out.
DT
All just for fun!
Phase intermodulation particularly is the fiasco that happens when non-linear thingy with linear in-band phase shift is linearized by feedback. In radio it is used to create SSB signal. In audio it sounds similarly to AM - demodulated SSB, but more subtle, and when blindtesters can't tell what's wrong with sound of perfectly measured tract, they hear some "lifeless", "dry" sound. Some people believe that "dry", "lifeless" sound is the result of absolutely clean reproduction, unlike "tube makeup" that adds low order distortions, but it's a myth.
How do I measure it?
I don't. I build my thingies as wideband as possible, as linear as possible, before application of any negative feedback. I extrapolate, in order to fool subjective perception.
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Well, I cannot describe sound micro-dynamics in words. Should you listen to a well designed SET power amp you will note the extended details and micro-dynamics of the sound, compared to any PP power amp, be it tubes or SS.
Sometimes, clinging hard to a theory makes one blind to other aspects of reality.
"Above all, western man remains a contradiction to himself as he will always choose to be right, rather than choose to be happy.
Conventional Solid-state amps may not always give a pleasing musical sound, but they provide superior technical measured performance of zero output Impedance (100% damping factor). Zero output Impedance was un-questionably chosen, reflecting one of many examples from our historical religious conditioning, now expressed as a self-righteous belief in an imposed technical morality.
Double blind testing is a science based practice, which cross checks the observer or listeners accuracy when paying attention to the external nature of reality. Occult practitioners (representing freedom from self doubt) are not concerned with external reality, but only with internal reality.
Valve amps evolved in a time when religious and moral values were inclusive within scientific and academic culture. Almost all academics of technology stated that negative feedback is correct and no negative feedback was wrong. Therefore negative feedback was imposed even though negative feedback was not required in a valve amp for it to function.
Academic engineers became obsessed with finding ways to increase negative feedback in Valve amplifiers to achieve a greater damping factor and lowest distortion figurers. But Valve amplifiers will only tolerate a small amount of negative feedback before the amp is caused to oscillate, hereby restricting the amount of Damping that can be achieved. When solid state amps arrived with the ability to have Zero output Impedance (100% Damping factor), academic interest in Valve amps was discarded without further thought."
Conventional Solid-state amps may not always give a pleasing musical sound, but they provide superior technical measured performance of zero output Impedance (100% damping factor). Zero output Impedance was un-questionably chosen, reflecting one of many examples from our historical religious conditioning, now expressed as a self-righteous belief in an imposed technical morality.
Double blind testing is a science based practice, which cross checks the observer or listeners accuracy when paying attention to the external nature of reality. Occult practitioners (representing freedom from self doubt) are not concerned with external reality, but only with internal reality.
Valve amps evolved in a time when religious and moral values were inclusive within scientific and academic culture. Almost all academics of technology stated that negative feedback is correct and no negative feedback was wrong. Therefore negative feedback was imposed even though negative feedback was not required in a valve amp for it to function.
Academic engineers became obsessed with finding ways to increase negative feedback in Valve amplifiers to achieve a greater damping factor and lowest distortion figurers. But Valve amplifiers will only tolerate a small amount of negative feedback before the amp is caused to oscillate, hereby restricting the amount of Damping that can be achieved. When solid state amps arrived with the ability to have Zero output Impedance (100% Damping factor), academic interest in Valve amps was discarded without further thought."
I performed this experiment at the time when 5534 was SOA. Quite right about the common mode distortion as the non-inverting configuration bore little semblance to the original sound. The inverted configuration, where both inputs were seeing the same impedances was actually quite good but still easily distinguishable from a bypass, even when battery power was used. In those days i knew nothing of super-regs, so maybe this experiment is worth repeating.
Yes, it was almost 30 years ago when i first figured out that the majority of people with an interest in audio are completely deaf. Paradoxically, many, with absolutely no interest in audio hear very well.
As for tube preamps, it is quite possible they "enrich" the original signal in a manner pleasing to the ear. Certainly the subjective impression of microdynamics, soundstaging, image specificity or midrange purity is enhanced in comparison to a resistor bypass. One reason may be microphonics, although i prefer thinking of the electrons getting "purified" by the heaters and the transition in vacuum 🙂
Lenard Audio.
Note this well:
"No valve should have its own sound. If it does, then the added distortion is imposed on the music where it does not belong. There is a vast amount of miss-information on the web about various valves having individual characteristic sounds. "
Note this well:
"No valve should have its own sound. If it does, then the added distortion is imposed on the music where it does not belong. There is a vast amount of miss-information on the web about various valves having individual characteristic sounds. "
And from the same page:
"Many Audiophiles believe in alchemy and behave similar to religious cults. Cult driven audiophiles are easily identified by their repetitious chanting of brand names, model numbers and meaningless superlatives concocted by high priest reviewers and marketing spin doctors. The highest Deity worshiped by the occult audiophile is the Single ended Class A valve amplifier. These amplifiers have one 1930s style large triode per channel. They are extremely in-efficient, average 3 to 20 Watts and often generate excessive 2nd harmonic distortion. The reason for worshiping one output valve, is same reason the religions of Abraham worship one God. These single ended amplifiers can be decorated with gold, and interconnected with oxygen free cable which channels Orgone energy (un-used sexual energy) from the lost city of Atlantis, enabling anything connected to the cable to transcend the laws of physics. Many of these cult objects are faddish nonsense and a few are beautiful works of art...
Some single ended valve amplifiers today, including replications of early triode valves are made by enthusiasts demonstrating the craft and skills similar to enthusiasts who replicate old grandfather clocks and steam engines. Some of these hand crafted single ended amplifiers are highly valued by collectors and as stated earlier can be beautiful works of art. This craft of demonstrating the skills to create technology of the past must not be confused with modern technology and science."
Lenard Audio - Education - Valve Amps
It's a fine site.
"Many Audiophiles believe in alchemy and behave similar to religious cults. Cult driven audiophiles are easily identified by their repetitious chanting of brand names, model numbers and meaningless superlatives concocted by high priest reviewers and marketing spin doctors. The highest Deity worshiped by the occult audiophile is the Single ended Class A valve amplifier. These amplifiers have one 1930s style large triode per channel. They are extremely in-efficient, average 3 to 20 Watts and often generate excessive 2nd harmonic distortion. The reason for worshiping one output valve, is same reason the religions of Abraham worship one God. These single ended amplifiers can be decorated with gold, and interconnected with oxygen free cable which channels Orgone energy (un-used sexual energy) from the lost city of Atlantis, enabling anything connected to the cable to transcend the laws of physics. Many of these cult objects are faddish nonsense and a few are beautiful works of art...
Some single ended valve amplifiers today, including replications of early triode valves are made by enthusiasts demonstrating the craft and skills similar to enthusiasts who replicate old grandfather clocks and steam engines. Some of these hand crafted single ended amplifiers are highly valued by collectors and as stated earlier can be beautiful works of art. This craft of demonstrating the skills to create technology of the past must not be confused with modern technology and science."
Lenard Audio - Education - Valve Amps
It's a fine site.
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