Best full range driver between 50-10.000Hz for a 3way system

[SpirosZ]

I 'm not sure if I should post this here since I am not talking about a single full range driver speaker but rather a full range driver based, 3way speaker.
Mods are free to move the thread to the multiway forum if necessary.

I have the feeling that my other project is not going to be exactly what I am looking for so I am already looking for alternatives.
The idea is quite simple.
I want one driver to reproduce the majority of the audible spectrum with helping drivers in the low and high end of the spectrum.
That way I can use a larger more efficient full range driver with better dynamics.
I want a simple 1st order crossover network between the full range and the tweeter (cross at around 8KHz) and a pair of active subwoofers to reproduce the low end (cross at 80Hz or lower).
The drivers I have in mind are the Visaton B200, Fostex FF225WK, Audio Nirvana cast 8", Dayton PS220, Tang band W8-1808, Tang band W8-1772, but there may be other drivers that I don't know about.
This project looks like it is going to cost a lot more than the previous one I was looking at so it has to be much much better one.

 

[adason]

there must already threads like this...fullrange as mid in 3-way


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[SpirosZ]

These threads may look similar but they are not. I have already check them.
I am looking for an 8" driver with good dynamics that is still in production and I can find in Europe.

 

[chris661]

Budget?
Cabinet size?
How loud does it need to go?

 

[SpirosZ]

The drivers I mentioned are already above my budget.
However I could probabaly stretch it to fit if i am going to get the sound I want.
Cabinet size doesn't matter that much as soon as it is not huge but speakers will have to stay close to the rear wall.
I would like them to be able to hit 100db at 3 meters even though I do not usually listen that loud.
Actually around 95-98db will be fine but its good to have some headroom.

 

[AudioLapDance]

Whoaaaah, 50 to 10k?!?

A cheap option might be the Beta12LT!



Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker


High eff, wiiiiiide band! 12"

Gets down to 50 in their 4cuft vented cab:



View attachment Beta_12LTA_cab.pdf

And 4cuft isn't that big if you consider it a "stand" to get the driver up to ear height! ;-)

The 1.75 sealed looks pretty sweet but rolls off at 80Hz but it's only 9dB down at 50





Godzilla's fallen in love with his and it's big enough to get close to 50Hz. There's a notch filter for the stock driver but apparently replacing the dustcap with a phase plug helps. (.. almost there myself, just have to find something to work as a plug ... hmmmm ... 1/2 a Kinder Egg! No, ... it'll melt ...)


Here's me playin' with mine open-baffle style!




Do the usual tricks to deal with the cheap stamped metal frame and other issues: baffle and/or magnet mount, notch filter, putty/deaded basket, phase plug, breakup back-of-driver to basket reflection, 99cent trick, painting whizzer, ... , ... , adding spokes to the driver, ..., ..., madness!

Cheers,
Jeff

PS I think there are other less expensive 'pro' options too! I recall the Legend12 or some other guitar speaker being used as a fullrange.

 

[SpirosZ]

Maybe I went too far with the 50Hz .
I just want to be able to cross it nicely with a sub.
I don't really want the driver to perform well under 80Hz or over 8KHz, I just want it to behave. If there is severe cone brake up above 8k that needs to get filtered with a steep Xover slope, it's not for me. If it bottoms out at 80Hz and needs to be cut off at 100Hz or more so save it's life, it's not for me.
I can find a tweeter with a very low Fs and cut it with just a capacitor at 5K and then do the same with just a coil on the full range. If the driver doesn't have huge problems between 5-10K it should be a fine transition.
The same with the low end.
A 4" or even a 5" full range will set the limits of the dynamics.
They certainly can't match a 6.5" an 8" or a 10" midbass.
However I wouldn't like to go beyond 10" on that one.
I believe that even a 10" driver that can match my criteria will have to cost several times more than my budget allows. Let alone a 12".
That's why I am looking at the 8" drivers.
I also have the feeling that I have more chances to find what I want on a 6.5" than a 10" unless I raise the budget considerably.

And of course low cost pro speakers are simply out of question. The only pro speakers that I could ever listen to cost a few thousand dollars each (call me Nexo).

 

[talaerts]

I found that the FF225WK is very nice sounding, no fatigue. It has in fact solid bass on its own. For most music use you don't really need subs. Of course, if you actively filter then the speaker can put more effort in frequencies of say 100 hz upwards. But unless you already have active subs and filters, leave these aside for now.
The FF225WK has enough widerange to allow for many experiments with tweeters.

If in budget I would investigate entry level planar type (ribbon, magnetostatic etc) tweeters with it.

 

[SpirosZ]

I already bought a Peerless XLS 830452 sub to try out. If it proves to be good I will get one more.
I also found localy a used JLaudio 12W6v2-D4 at a reasonable price that I think about buying if the XLS is not good enough so there is definitely going to be at least one active sub in the system.
I have also bought a pair of CHP70s that I can use as surrounds (they were originally bought to become the basic driver for a 5.1 HT setup) or move them in my office as PC speakers.
The (8"?) full range will be used for L/R and center speaker with the aid of a tweeter and a 1st order XO.
I also think about mounting the tweeter concentrically with the full range (The Vifa XT25SC is under investigation right now but I don't fancy it's off axis response) so that the center channel can be compact in size.

The FF225WK was probably my first thought along with the Visaton B200 but there are a few more drivers to consider like the Audio Nirvana 8" and a few others.
Also looking at the FR charts of the first two I can see they are "shouting" a little in the upper mids-lower treble so maybe one of the other drivers is more appropriate as I don't think I am going to like the mids shouting. I just can't find enough information about them.
It's really difficult to make decisions when you don't have the chance to actually hear any one of them and you have to decide by information interpolation.

 

[talaerts]

Well, contrary to my own expectations, the FF225WK is not shouty when played unfiltered. It is pleasant and warm sounding. The B200 indeed has a reputation of being somewhat difficult to handle.

 

[mondogenerator]

myself and TVRgeek have been discussing a similar topic over in the multiway forum. Our desired bandwidth is a little smaller (600-6k or so). Within these constraints its a little easier. Im thinking of using an alpair5, and TVRgeek is looking at a fountek, the 89 i think. The limit with these is their sensitivity. We are both aiming to keep the FRs breakups out of the mid band. Provided excursion isnt a problem there is nothing preventing a wider midband, but i imagine that going with higher efficiency FRs could present more difficulty, particularly with matching polar patterns with larger drivers.

 

[SpirosZ]

myself and TVRgeek have been discussing a similar topic over in the multiway forum. Our desired bandwidth is a little smaller (600-6k or so). Within these constraints its a little easier. Im thinking of using an alpair5, and TVRgeek is looking at a fountek, the 89 i think. The limit with these is their sensitivity.

The 600-6k range could be an option if I was going to use a woofer instead of a subwoofer but there is a conflict with the center channel that rules out that option.

If I was in your shoes I would be also looking at Fostex FF83WK with a 10" SB Acoustics woofer.

 

[SpirosZ]

Well, contrary to my own expectations, the FF225WK is not shouty when played unfiltered. It is pleasant and warm sounding. The B200 indeed has a reputation of being somewhat difficult to handle.

Thank you for that info. So it seems that the Fostex could be one of my options.

 

[Bill poster]

What about the cheap MA CHR-70? Not sure where it rolls off f3 sealed but it might be a good bet

 

[mondogenerator]

+1 for that .

 

[xrk971]

Does 55 to 5.5kHz at 91 dB efficiency work for you? Here is a neodymium driver that may work and has been suggested in an mtm setup with good results reported.
Aura NS6-255-8A 6" Paper Cone Neodymium Magnet Woofer 299-030

 

[SpirosZ]

What about the cheap MA CHR-70? Not sure where it rolls off f3 sealed but it might be a good bet

How much better a CHR70 can be (if it is any better) from the CHP70 that I have already bought and ruled out (along with all the 4" & 5" fullrange drivers available)?

The requested useful range of 50-10.000Hz can actually shrink to 80-8.000Hz or even to 80-5.000Hz but I want the effortless 80Hz of a large cone and not the stressed and probably distorted 80Hz of a 4' or 5" driver.

 

[talaerts]

The requested useful range of 50-10.000Hz can actually shrink to 80-8.000Hz or even to 80-5.000Hz but I want the effortless 80Hz of a large cone and not the stressed and probably distorted 80Hz of a 4' or 5" driver.

Since you filter actively, you could cross the extended midrange at, say, 150 hz.
Then you could opt for the incredible Alpair A12P which in a way would be a good investment as you won't need a tweeter and associated filter components. The Alpair is very, very good, in my opinion a class higher than anything I heard from Fostex except a few limited editions.

 

[SpirosZ]

Does 55 to 5.5kHz at 91 dB efficiency work for you? Here is a neodymium driver that may work and has been suggested in an mtm setup with good results reported.
Aura NS6-255-8A 6" Paper Cone Neodymium Magnet Woofer 299-030

That one looks like the perfect driver for an ultra low cost speaker in general.
However even though my budget is not huge I would rather spend some more money on the main and most important driver of the system.
Having said that at $9/ea I may buy 3 of those just to try them.
I am only afraid of spending all my budget on possible low cost alternatives and not get the sound I want in the end (I have the tendency to buy several cheap stuff just to try if they are good for the money; I have already bought a pair of low cost 8" drivers only because they were cheap and had great reviews. They don't meet my criteria either so now I have to find a use for them).

 

[SpirosZ]

Since you filter actively, you could cross the extended midrange at, say, 150 hz.
Then you could opt for the incredible Alpair A12P which in a way would be a good investment as you won't need a tweeter and associated filter components. The Alpair is very, very good, in my opinion a class higher than anything I heard from Fostex except a few limited editions.

The Aplair A12P could also be a choice even though I would rather cut the sub under 100Hz.
How does an A12P crossed at 100Hz would compare to an FF225WK + tweeter with a 6db/octave XO @~5-8K?
The Alpair is a 6" driver right?