Hi nicoch58,
Come on! You didn't read anything I posted obviously!
What dielectric of ceramic? Y5V, X7R - what? C0G/NP0 are completely different.
So how incredibly misleading you are being to others reading the thread???
Plus, no test setup, no impedance level. 2Vrms is about 5.66 volts peak to peak and may be too much for some sound cards. Also, some deliver better performance at lower levels. What sound card and what are it's specs?
We were all further ahead without this post to be honest, but it does illustrate how incomplete information can make it so inaccurate.
-Chris
Come on! You didn't read anything I posted obviously!
What dielectric of ceramic? Y5V, X7R - what? C0G/NP0 are completely different.
So how incredibly misleading you are being to others reading the thread???
Plus, no test setup, no impedance level. 2Vrms is about 5.66 volts peak to peak and may be too much for some sound cards. Also, some deliver better performance at lower levels. What sound card and what are it's specs?
We were all further ahead without this post to be honest, but it does illustrate how incomplete information can make it so inaccurate.
-Chris
Hi nicoch58,
Nelson simply mentioned what he likes to use. Nothing about all the actual reasons for that at all. It is his opinion, which is valid for his personal reasons.
He did make an excellent point in that cost has little to do with performance, and also that manufacturer's descriptions can be utter nonsense.
I have met Nelson more than once and have great respect for the man. However that doesn't mean you need to fall all over yourself and accept what he or anyone else says without really looking into it.
-Chris
Nelson simply mentioned what he likes to use. Nothing about all the actual reasons for that at all. It is his opinion, which is valid for his personal reasons.
He did make an excellent point in that cost has little to do with performance, and also that manufacturer's descriptions can be utter nonsense.
I have met Nelson more than once and have great respect for the man. However that doesn't mean you need to fall all over yourself and accept what he or anyone else says without really looking into it.
-Chris
I think in a lot of situations, analogue and even some digital ELNA Silmics are very good, I'm interested in the reasons why, but quite happy to simply try, over time you do get a chance to try a number of caps. Some have been driven by views of people like Nelson, some by forum excitement and some by seeing what are used in components you like the sound of.
I am really glad for the suggestions and recommendations and have often tried a capacitor just as an experiment, it rarely made no difference and it isn't going to break the bank. I have a lot of sorry looking caps in a box, but I bet the tried and not liked ones are only a few hundred pounds worth. Apart from replacing some Samwha caps with expensive Mundorfs in one of my sub amps and then going back (go figure) I haven't had any super expensive mistakes yet. I'll find a home yet for the 100v 10,000uf Mundorf AG's I have no doubt and they are part run in !
I am really glad for the suggestions and recommendations and have often tried a capacitor just as an experiment, it rarely made no difference and it isn't going to break the bank. I have a lot of sorry looking caps in a box, but I bet the tried and not liked ones are only a few hundred pounds worth. Apart from replacing some Samwha caps with expensive Mundorfs in one of my sub amps and then going back (go figure) I haven't had any super expensive mistakes yet. I'll find a home yet for the 100v 10,000uf Mundorf AG's I have no doubt and they are part run in !
My only comment on this is that the damage caused to circuit boards and tag strips by some people far exceed the chance you will find a better sounding capacitor unless:
1) The old one is defective
2) The old one was the wrong type for the application.
Otherwise folks, have at it! Just don't damage your equipment for one. For two, do not damage the seals when installing parts. 99% of you out there do exactly that and it takes years to show up.
Really, that is he truth of the matter. Consider this. A manufacturer of even half decent electronics will not destroy performance by using a cheap part, or incorrect part. That's given market forces at the time (there was a time when Tantalum caps were thought to be good). If you have low end electronics, there are far greater issues than the capacitor type you will find. Of these, circuit design and PCB layout would rank the highest, and these things cannot be fixed through part swaps. So he realistic chances of putting in the part of the day and it making any improvement in your equipment is slim to none. It will probably only make you feel good, but an honest, impartial observer will burst your bubble! Children and wives are the best second opinions as long as they are not expected to agree with you or to hear a positive difference.
I never tell people in a listening test what or even if I made changes when they audition. That keeps them honest.
-Chris
1) The old one is defective
2) The old one was the wrong type for the application.
Otherwise folks, have at it! Just don't damage your equipment for one. For two, do not damage the seals when installing parts. 99% of you out there do exactly that and it takes years to show up.
Really, that is he truth of the matter. Consider this. A manufacturer of even half decent electronics will not destroy performance by using a cheap part, or incorrect part. That's given market forces at the time (there was a time when Tantalum caps were thought to be good). If you have low end electronics, there are far greater issues than the capacitor type you will find. Of these, circuit design and PCB layout would rank the highest, and these things cannot be fixed through part swaps. So he realistic chances of putting in the part of the day and it making any improvement in your equipment is slim to none. It will probably only make you feel good, but an honest, impartial observer will burst your bubble! Children and wives are the best second opinions as long as they are not expected to agree with you or to hear a positive difference.
I never tell people in a listening test what or even if I made changes when they audition. That keeps them honest.
-Chris
Also, it should be kept in mind that too low an ESR can easily cause problems - some serious.
Hi Hal,
Absolutely correct. I mentioned that earlier in the thread.
Very good observation.
-Chris
Absolutely correct. I mentioned that earlier in the thread.
Very good observation.
-Chris
For bypass duty for a DAC I/V output stage is there a significant difference between 47 and 10uf? I ask because I stumbled upon some blackgate F 10uf that fit into 47uf spots.
Have some 100uf too but seems a little caveman to jury rig them under the board
Have some 100uf too but seems a little caveman to jury rig them under the board
I guess we are all different. When I listen I am a very harsh marker and take time to fully assess. Not to defend my decisions or prove them in any way, but to avoid mistakes, this is no different to buying new items and equipment. If people are incapable of that then I'm not sure why they are interested in audio or video. As they surely would have given up by continued expensive disappointment a long time ago.
This for me is a pursuit to attain as real as possible replay, again not because I want to prove something or defend my decisions but because the more visceral, dynamic and real the more I enjoy the music performance or film.
I agree with you on second opinions and I do ask my fiancé for her opinion on A-B, with no knowledge as to where I might be changing a cable, CD player, processor, settings or capacitor and we rarely disagree. Often the exact point of difference highlighted quickly.
Sometimes A-B's are hard and inconsistent then you leave the decision open. I can tell you as AC coupling capacitors in the final analogue output of my Panasonic UB-9000 the choice of caps makes a difference and they do change when running in, I await a torrent of abuse and 'proof' I have fooled myself in reasons why I didn't like Nichicon FG as much as Silmic etc and its all a clever con built by the industry to fool the uninitiated.
This for me is a pursuit to attain as real as possible replay, again not because I want to prove something or defend my decisions but because the more visceral, dynamic and real the more I enjoy the music performance or film.
I agree with you on second opinions and I do ask my fiancé for her opinion on A-B, with no knowledge as to where I might be changing a cable, CD player, processor, settings or capacitor and we rarely disagree. Often the exact point of difference highlighted quickly.
Sometimes A-B's are hard and inconsistent then you leave the decision open. I can tell you as AC coupling capacitors in the final analogue output of my Panasonic UB-9000 the choice of caps makes a difference and they do change when running in, I await a torrent of abuse and 'proof' I have fooled myself in reasons why I didn't like Nichicon FG as much as Silmic etc and its all a clever con built by the industry to fool the uninitiated.
Hi IWC,
No, I'm not going to jump on you here. After decades focused in the high end audio industry and the test and measurement industry, and after studying all kinds of components closely I have come to some conclusions. I arrived here very, very carefully and quite frankly - under attack from those with vested interests. It's close to a religion for some to be honest. My findings completely agree with others who have travelled a similar path.
So I'll offer what I have learned and do my best to explain the whys - within reason. I'm a busy working professional in this field.
One truth. A capacitor will not typically alter the signal unless some signal voltage appears across the capacitor. So by definition, a coupling capacitor will not affect the signal unless you develop a signal voltage across the part. Now I am excepting defective capacitors and capacitors that have poor dielectric properties. Please understand that the dielectric properties has to do with the material unless the material is poor quality (contaminated, variable in thickness or winding tension). If you know anything about electric fields, leakage currents and how dielectrics differ, this will make perfect sense to you. The capacitor doesn't know what kind of signal is applied, so sound and control signals (test signals also) are precisely the same to a part.
The separator that holds the dielectric in wet style capacitors (most electrolytics and excellent tantalum types) is inert! The dielectric fluid is the only thing that is conductive here. So we are again concerned with consistency and tension. If someone were to use a separator that is not inert, they are making defective parts. So discussion as to what separator is used (hemp or whatever) is really just a distraction unless that material makes it difficult to maintain consistency between parts. It also matters how that material ages or is affected by the electrolyte (hopefully not!!!).
So you see, a good quality part from a good manufacturer will not affect the sound quality. There is greater danger when a manufacturer attempts to differentiate their product by using non-standard materials in construction. Those materials may not be fully researched for long term stability, and obviously the marketing department has had more of a say than the engineering department or staff scientists. Now please show me marketing people who are fully trained in physics and electronics - please. These are the opinions you're going to trust?
Capacitors are used in life critical applications where signal fidelity is paramount and failures unacceptable. This applies to test and measurement, industrial processes and even space applications. Military use emphasises reliability, but signal fidelity is also a prime requirement. You need high signal fidelity to detect inbound objects and guide ordinance to target (and not the local market for example). If what the audio industry claims was truly correct, we would be using a stock, off the shelf parts at much lower cost (volume of manufacture). There wouldn't be anything "special" about the part at all. Don't kid yourself, components used in audio manufacture is all about cost and market acceptance in some cases. The better brands consider quality and reliability more.
One thing you can consider is that some components types do not survive volume manufacture techniques well and must be installed by hand by skilled people. That class of component does not include most coupling capacitors. However, where the leads come through the end seals you must take care not to damage the seal. That means when you install the part you cannot just jam the leads in. They must be carefully formed to go through mounting holes without applying tension to the seals. Make sense? No matter how good the capacitor is, damage the seals and it is now defective and may well fail in the future. In that case you were further ahead with the factory part even if there was a difference between them. This is a very real practical consideration.
It takes probably 5x longer to install a part correctly than to just jam it in. So when buying equipment, if the seller states it was "recapped", you should probably either pass on it, or plan to replace every part they replaced properly. Of course what I just said is very unpopular ($$$), but it is true. I just bought a Marantz 300DC that was recapped. Every part was incorrect as a selection, and every part was installed improperly and you could see seal damage on most capacitors. This was done by a "good shop". I would have retrained or fired that technician. Additionally, many capacitors did not require replacement. That means I'm doing more work than had I got one unmolested (my strong preference). They also totally missed the things that do matter.
I practice what I preach folks.
-Chris
No, I'm not going to jump on you here. After decades focused in the high end audio industry and the test and measurement industry, and after studying all kinds of components closely I have come to some conclusions. I arrived here very, very carefully and quite frankly - under attack from those with vested interests. It's close to a religion for some to be honest. My findings completely agree with others who have travelled a similar path.
So I'll offer what I have learned and do my best to explain the whys - within reason. I'm a busy working professional in this field.
One truth. A capacitor will not typically alter the signal unless some signal voltage appears across the capacitor. So by definition, a coupling capacitor will not affect the signal unless you develop a signal voltage across the part. Now I am excepting defective capacitors and capacitors that have poor dielectric properties. Please understand that the dielectric properties has to do with the material unless the material is poor quality (contaminated, variable in thickness or winding tension). If you know anything about electric fields, leakage currents and how dielectrics differ, this will make perfect sense to you. The capacitor doesn't know what kind of signal is applied, so sound and control signals (test signals also) are precisely the same to a part.
The separator that holds the dielectric in wet style capacitors (most electrolytics and excellent tantalum types) is inert! The dielectric fluid is the only thing that is conductive here. So we are again concerned with consistency and tension. If someone were to use a separator that is not inert, they are making defective parts. So discussion as to what separator is used (hemp or whatever) is really just a distraction unless that material makes it difficult to maintain consistency between parts. It also matters how that material ages or is affected by the electrolyte (hopefully not!!!).
So you see, a good quality part from a good manufacturer will not affect the sound quality. There is greater danger when a manufacturer attempts to differentiate their product by using non-standard materials in construction. Those materials may not be fully researched for long term stability, and obviously the marketing department has had more of a say than the engineering department or staff scientists. Now please show me marketing people who are fully trained in physics and electronics - please. These are the opinions you're going to trust?
Capacitors are used in life critical applications where signal fidelity is paramount and failures unacceptable. This applies to test and measurement, industrial processes and even space applications. Military use emphasises reliability, but signal fidelity is also a prime requirement. You need high signal fidelity to detect inbound objects and guide ordinance to target (and not the local market for example). If what the audio industry claims was truly correct, we would be using a stock, off the shelf parts at much lower cost (volume of manufacture). There wouldn't be anything "special" about the part at all. Don't kid yourself, components used in audio manufacture is all about cost and market acceptance in some cases. The better brands consider quality and reliability more.
One thing you can consider is that some components types do not survive volume manufacture techniques well and must be installed by hand by skilled people. That class of component does not include most coupling capacitors. However, where the leads come through the end seals you must take care not to damage the seal. That means when you install the part you cannot just jam the leads in. They must be carefully formed to go through mounting holes without applying tension to the seals. Make sense? No matter how good the capacitor is, damage the seals and it is now defective and may well fail in the future. In that case you were further ahead with the factory part even if there was a difference between them. This is a very real practical consideration.
It takes probably 5x longer to install a part correctly than to just jam it in. So when buying equipment, if the seller states it was "recapped", you should probably either pass on it, or plan to replace every part they replaced properly. Of course what I just said is very unpopular ($$$), but it is true. I just bought a Marantz 300DC that was recapped. Every part was incorrect as a selection, and every part was installed improperly and you could see seal damage on most capacitors. This was done by a "good shop". I would have retrained or fired that technician. Additionally, many capacitors did not require replacement. That means I'm doing more work than had I got one unmolested (my strong preference). They also totally missed the things that do matter.
I practice what I preach folks.
-Chris
Chris, hi
Thanks for the feedback, still perplexed by repeatable differences then between certain capacitors in certain locations then. I do try very hard to do as neat a solder job as possible, but I am far from quick as I tend to spend a lot of time dry building and checking. The challenge is with replacement caps that are not like for like, they are often signifcantly larger
Thanks for the feedback, still perplexed by repeatable differences then between certain capacitors in certain locations then. I do try very hard to do as neat a solder job as possible, but I am far from quick as I tend to spend a lot of time dry building and checking. The challenge is with replacement caps that are not like for like, they are often signifcantly larger
Well, physical size can matter. Go higher in voltage to get the lead spacing or can size closer to the original. The quality of the part increases with higher voltage just so you know.
A new manufacture capacitor should be smaller. If it isn't, then something else is going on and I would be highly suspicious! Now, "audiophile approved" capacitors are highly suspect right out of the gate.
A new manufacture capacitor should be smaller. If it isn't, then something else is going on and I would be highly suspicious! Now, "audiophile approved" capacitors are highly suspect right out of the gate.
https://darko.audio/2019/04/onsight-an-afternoon-with-mbls-jurgen-reis/
Run the video to 11min 50 and see what he says about choice of components that measure the same. I'm not a MBLS fan or know very much about them but his view is interesting. Is he another delusional believer 🤔
Run the video to 11min 50 and see what he says about choice of components that measure the same. I'm not a MBLS fan or know very much about them but his view is interesting. Is he another delusional believer 🤔
Hi IWC,
The link did not open to a video.
The thing is ... they don't measure the same in most cases. It depends on what and how you measure the components. Measurements matter in the frequency ranges of interest, and at signal levels appropriate for the intended use. One thing I do not measure for is ESR for example as that is rarely a factor in the intended use unless it is a power supply capacitor, or output coupling capacitor in a single supply amplifier. I measure for DA. leakage and at various frequencies and signal levels. This gives you a more complete picture of the part.
It would be so much easier if we had a magic box that had a meter scale marked as bad, and percentage good. Until then we really do have to understand all about parts, what is important about them and the application. In other words, we have to interpret readings from specialized instruments (they are not cheap) and apply those to what we know in order to make a good, solid decision.
-Chris
The link did not open to a video.
The thing is ... they don't measure the same in most cases. It depends on what and how you measure the components. Measurements matter in the frequency ranges of interest, and at signal levels appropriate for the intended use. One thing I do not measure for is ESR for example as that is rarely a factor in the intended use unless it is a power supply capacitor, or output coupling capacitor in a single supply amplifier. I measure for DA. leakage and at various frequencies and signal levels. This gives you a more complete picture of the part.
It would be so much easier if we had a magic box that had a meter scale marked as bad, and percentage good. Until then we really do have to understand all about parts, what is important about them and the application. In other words, we have to interpret readings from specialized instruments (they are not cheap) and apply those to what we know in order to make a good, solid decision.
-Chris
Okay,
I disagree completely.
Yes, you can make things sound different, but they will always measure differently. Every single time. I also disagree with the idea that each component will impact the sound hugely. Certain circuit locations have a much higher impact than others. Different component types can sound different. We will exclude poor components from comparison with good ones.
What I hear is the standard boutique manufacturer overstating the importance of some things. I've heard this so many times over the course of decades it is boring these days. In the 70's we couldn't measure what we can today, so back then there was some truth in what he is saying. Not today if you are measuring the right tings. Our components are also a lot better today. So his clip is somewhat misleading at best.
-Chris
I disagree completely.
Yes, you can make things sound different, but they will always measure differently. Every single time. I also disagree with the idea that each component will impact the sound hugely. Certain circuit locations have a much higher impact than others. Different component types can sound different. We will exclude poor components from comparison with good ones.
What I hear is the standard boutique manufacturer overstating the importance of some things. I've heard this so many times over the course of decades it is boring these days. In the 70's we couldn't measure what we can today, so back then there was some truth in what he is saying. Not today if you are measuring the right tings. Our components are also a lot better today. So his clip is somewhat misleading at best.
-Chris
Guys, what would you recommend as a replacement for UCC AVF capacitors in Sony TA-F770ES? The screw in caps I have replaced with the ALS30 from Kemet, but I'm struggling with the rest. I'm thinking about the UCC LXY/LXZ series. What do you think?
