All Bluetooth transmission is digital.
There is no analog conversion, so no DAC is involved. It's the way the protocol works.
There is no analog conversion, so no DAC is involved. It's the way the protocol works.
If you want to use BT, I'd recommend getting a phone that comes with oreo or later. My V20 came installed with Nougat and I had to root to get oreo since I don't have a sim for it. I think if I put it on ATT or another carrier then it would have upgraded to oreo.
Oreo has better bt functions, you can go into developer mode and select bt codecs.
If you use an external dac, or using bt (as Sangram said), the phone's internal dac doesn't matter.
Pretty sure my v20 would do mqa with the tidal app, never tried it though.
Oreo has better bt functions, you can go into developer mode and select bt codecs.
If you use an external dac, or using bt (as Sangram said), the phone's internal dac doesn't matter.
Pretty sure my v20 would do mqa with the tidal app, never tried it though.
OK, I guess you are talking about the Phone here.
In case I am using an external DAC with BT Aptx + AK4497 dual. I guess that the Bluetooth chip send the signal to the AK4497 chip in direct digital mode, right ?
Exactly. Which is why this discussion is arbitrary and a bit absurd.
If BT is being used, then any phone that can do aptX HD is just as "audiophile" as the next.
I can't imagine a scenario when I would want to use my phone as a source unless I am on the move. For home use, there are much better solutions - most of which can be controlled from your phone so the convenience factor is exactly the same.
Get a cheap piece of hardware (RPi, old netbook, whatever) and install any one of the many Linux/mpd based music streamers and then use your phone to control playback. True bit-perfect audio and far less phone battery usage with all the same conveniences.
Correct. So the quality of the phone is irrelevant as long as it has aptX HD and you enable it.
I still wonder why you want to do this, when there are so many better options that are just as convenient and don't hammer your phone battery.
Better in what way? If Audio Science Review is trustworthy my G7 at a minimum matches the measured performance of a Benchmark DAC 1. For home headphone listening the G7 is anything but absurd.
There are plenty of free Linux/mpd based music streaming operating systems for RPi and x86 (PC) that are remotely controllable from your phone. Lots of discussion about them around here.
The one I use (and it is one of many) is called Volumio. Volumio - The Audiophile Music Player
It is dead simple:
1) Get yourself a raspberry Pi or any old PC (I use an old Asus EeePC netbook) and plug in your DAC
2) Download the appropriate version of Volumio and write the image file to SD or USB stick
3) Insert the media and boot it up
4) Go through the setup wizard to connect to your network (wireless or wired, doesn't matter) and setup DAC, music sources, etc.
5) Open the browser on your phone (or another PC) and go to volumio.local - here you can control playback from all sources, configure settings, etc. etc.
6) Enjoy
7) optional - use the option to install it to a local HD. I chose to do this because I have an SSD drive in the netbook which makes it much more responsive, but this isn't "necessary".
I am not saying this is the only option, or even the best option - it is just the one I use and I love it. There are lots of options and it is easy to try them all and decide for yourself. I have the ability to take my phone from my pocket, open my browser to volumio.local and playback anything including all my FLAC from my NAS, any internet radio stream that I want and Spotify. There are plugins for other sources. Other than remote control, my phone is not involved in the playback.
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Better for streaming local or Internet content to a hi-fi system without burning through phone battery. There's no real reason for the phone to be involved for home use unless you are plugging your headphones straight into it (and in this case, the phone DAC actually matters). Know what I mean?
Why involve the phone when it is completely unnecessary? The conversation isn't about headphone listening.
Also, the OP is not even going to use the DAC in his phone, he is going to stream over BT, so that is also irrelevant.
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Hummmmmm let me share my test with 3 phones using APTX codec :
- HTC M8
- HTC 10
- Xiaomi Redme 8.
I can say that the HTC 10 connected over BT APTX HD to my AK4497 dual dac sounds much better than the M8 and Xiaomi.
Mediums takes another dimension, more accuracy in the bass and clean trebles
Any explanation to this ?
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Streaming with a Phone is simple, works fine if you have a good phone.
Take up less space than a PC...
Moreover you can see on the market many manufacturers that are using the "phone concept" (Fifo, Pioneer, Onkyo etc) via Android OS.
I don't say this is the best solution but I find it practical. The HTC 10 really blew me away via APTX HD.
If this is true (and if the differences can be measured to prove it) then it proves only one thing; aptX HD is not as good as it is claimed to be, and it certainly isn't lossless. If it was truly lossless (as claimed by the industry) then the phone wouldn't matter.
I suspect (again, assuming that your statement is true) that there must be some variability in the amount of compression that is done "on-the-fly" when the phone streams to the DAC. That's the only thing that would cause a difference in the digital stream.
The only conclusion is that it is not lossless/bit-perfect. But if you enjoy it then that's all that matters.
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Thanks for the feedback. My statement = my ears.
I will test with the great quad Dac LG V30 next week, I found a friend of mine who has it. I will share I what I feel.
HTC 10 is using a 100% Qualcomm chips : its internal dedicated DAC is called "Aqstic" and APTX HD is also a Qualcomm property.
Is there not a cause and effect link between the codec and the dac in certain cases?
I'm not the only one who thinks so apparently ...
Review on HtC 10 and Sound quality (AQstic Dedicated Integrated DAC) | Headphone Reviews and Discussion - Head-Fi.org
Qualcomm Aqstic sets a new standard for audiophiles | Qualcomm
As reminder also :
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Thanks for the feedback. My statement = my ears.
I will test with the great quad Dac LG V30 next week, I found a friend of mine who has it. I will share I what I feel.
HTC 10 is using a 100% Qualcomm chips : its internal dedicated DAC is called "Aqstic" and APTX HD is also a Qualcomm property.
Is there not a cause and effect link between the codec and the dac in certain cases?
I'm not the only one who thinks so apparently ...
Review on HtC 10 and Sound quality (AQstic Dedicated Integrated DAC) | Headphone Reviews and Discussion - Head-Fi.org
Qualcomm Aqstic sets a new standard for audiophiles | Qualcomm
As reminder also :
Perhaps I should explain that a DAC is a Digital to Analog Converter. The streams or files on your phone are in some sort of digital format such as MP3, AAC, OGG, FLAC, etc. The phone converts/compresses that digital format into into an aptX or aptX HD stream (or one of the other BT codecs) to send via BT to the BT receiver on your external DAC. When streaming via any BT codec, there is no Digital to Analog conversion on the phone, so the phone's DAC is irrelevant.
Aqstic is a multi-function chip that has an integrated DAC. The only time the integrated DAC is used is when an analog signal is required. The only time an analog signal is required is when you plug in headphones or some other device into the analog output of the device (or use the phone's built-in speaker). This is why the DAC discussion in the links you posted is focused on headphone listening.
Myself and a few others have explained a few times now that a phone's DAC is not involved when streaming any kind of BT codec to an external DAC. I hope you understand now.
But again, if you believe you will be happier with an "audiophile" phone to stream BT codecs to your external DAC, then go right ahead. I am just telling you that DAC quality is irrelevant unless you are using the analog output on the phone. That's the truth.
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Yes exact ) In fact I am experimenting this and I will share my opinion once I get the LG LV30.
TEST 1 : PC via USB C connected to the Dual AK4497 > Amanero USB chip
TEST 2 : HTC 10 connected to the Dual AK4497 via USB C port > Amanero
TEST 3 : HTC 10 connected to the Dual AK4497 via Bluetooth APTX HD
TEST 4 : HTC M8 connected to the Dual AK4497 via Bluetooth APTX HD
TEST 5 : LG V30 connected to the Dual AK4497 via Bluetooth APTX HD
TEST 6 : LG V30 connected to the Dual AK4497 via USB C > Amanero
TEST 7 : Xioami Redme 8 connected to the Dual AK4497 via Bluetooth APTX
Source test :
Hoff Ensemble
Chromatic Fantasia
Arnesen: MAGNIFICAT 4. Et misericordia
Format 1 : Stereo24BIT/352.8kHz
Format 2 : Stereo24BIT/192kHz
Format 3 : MQA stereo original resolution
Format 4 : Stereo DSD 256 / 11.2896Mbit/s
My setup again :
TPA3255 Amplifier with a pair of AOP 1622 (full Nichicon caps / Elna)
Dual AK4497 DAC / Dual linear PSU with Amanero USB + BT APTX HD
Hi end Floor Speakers made in France 2.5 Way / 93DB / 120W RMS (ribon tweeter / Triangle Medium / Audax Bass / Freq : 600-3500 HZ / 36-23000 HZ / Mundorf Self L100 + L70 / SCP mkp cond.)
I do understand amigo ) I thank you again for this clear explanation.
Also thanks for your patience.
I am just trying to understand myself how comes the sound quality / soundstage etc change from a phone to another one with the same codecs.
In other terms, what are the factors that influence the differences.
You may think I'm stubborn but I think there are never stupid questions
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Even if the codec is the same the BT connection is not. there are many issues with trying to use 2.4GHz spectrum for audio transmission. Jitter and latency is massive - the APTx LL has a latency of about 100ms, and it only goes downhill from there.
Bluetooth is a streaming codec and like all streaming audio/video connections, transport is vital to keeping jitter low and S/N ratio high (not the analog S/N, the digital domain). It's easier said than done when it comes to battery-operated devices optimised for battery life and all-round performance rather than audio quality, and running on a very crowded frequency band.
Bluetooth is useful only when you have no other option to listen to music. You can't treat it as a fixed quantity.
Bluetooth is a streaming codec and like all streaming audio/video connections, transport is vital to keeping jitter low and S/N ratio high (not the analog S/N, the digital domain). It's easier said than done when it comes to battery-operated devices optimised for battery life and all-round performance rather than audio quality, and running on a very crowded frequency band.
Bluetooth is useful only when you have no other option to listen to music. You can't treat it as a fixed quantity.