Hi destroyer x,
I might just do that.............what colour sound do your amps make!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
Hi tiefbassuebertr,
my speakers are at present Linn Isobarik DMS so what amp I use is relatively unimportant as they add plenty of colour to the sound on their own. This is part of the problem with evaluating amp sound quality. The vast majority of colouration in a sound system comes from the speakers and the rooms reaction to them. Your own perception muddies this even further.
I might just do that.............what colour sound do your amps make!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
Hi tiefbassuebertr,
my speakers are at present Linn Isobarik DMS so what amp I use is relatively unimportant as they add plenty of colour to the sound on their own. This is part of the problem with evaluating amp sound quality. The vast majority of colouration in a sound system comes from the speakers and the rooms reaction to them. Your own perception muddies this even further.
I have a feeling that what thoglette is stating is that scaling the amp up to increase the output power is in no way as easy as it sounds 😉
I'd tend to agree, while it's fairly easy to make a 50W 8ohm amp you'll need to pay vastly more attention to everything if you expect a 500W 8ohm amp to be stable, let alone give the same performance which might have been easy to get with the 50W amp...
I'd tend to agree, while it's fairly easy to make a 50W 8ohm amp you'll need to pay vastly more attention to everything if you expect a 500W 8ohm amp to be stable, let alone give the same performance which might have been easy to get with the 50W amp...
Yes, very true.
You can scale-up a car to carry 30 people, but it makes more sense to design a bus.
Design for purpose.
Need a 10W amp; design a 10W amp
Need a 200W amp; design a 200W amp.
Etc..
The only reason to have a scaleable design is if you are creating something commercial and need to create many variants cheaply from a single core design.
: )
Jerryo..if you are a big man, a macho man, then my amplifier will have Dark blue,
dark grey, dark brown or black..... if you are, let's say.... a super sensitive human beeing, then the colour will be rose....if you are inside the closed, not knowing exactly what you gonna be in the future...then you may listen pink with yellow dots.
If you are alike "The birdcage" movie..then it is better not to listen my amplifiers..they were made for real man.
regards,
Carlos
dark grey, dark brown or black..... if you are, let's say.... a super sensitive human beeing, then the colour will be rose....if you are inside the closed, not knowing exactly what you gonna be in the future...then you may listen pink with yellow dots.
If you are alike "The birdcage" movie..then it is better not to listen my amplifiers..they were made for real man.
regards,
Carlos
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I remember a project at least 10 years ago, where was the same problem. Strong life of its own acoustical from the livingroom was present, especially in the low frequency range.
Hardest work was the procedure of disass'y of the Linn Isobarik DMS (one of first issue's). I have create a 24db LR variable Sallen-Key low pass filter for the KEF 2xB139 (an active version). And I did make a redesign for the bandpass for the KEF B110B so as the high pass for the D2008 related Hiquphon (CAD supported and local measuring/design, acoustical 24db LR-IV character). At that time I was already working with the DAAS3NT from ADM, Nordhorn/Mr. Ulti.
There are follow amplifiers in use:
1) Linn LK2-80/Spark for the low frequency aera
2) Pass Aleph 5 for the Mid/High frequency aera
A volume control was retrofitted at the LK2-80 (because the voltage gain was much more than Aleph 5)
Sound enhancement was very large (compare to before) In orig. condition with only one Amplifier there was follow sonic character: by the LK2-80 the upper frequency aera was harsh and sharp and by the Aleph 5 no tight and clean bass transmission was possible).
The user have tested in orig. condition (i.e. single amping) more than 25 different amplifiers (some very powerful versions) without success. I claim, there are no amplifier topology that can top this bi-ampling system in single amping mode.
If strong ceiling reflections are present, it can still be useful to drive the part of top speakers about an separating amplifier. Now it is possible to carry out an independent level adjust for this part.
If there are standing waves in your room, an additional notch filter could be helpful.
But also very importante to avoid vibration sources (three point standing). If there is a wood flooring, at any rate a very large (hugh) mass for decoupling is important (>70 kg e.g. a granite block from your local tombstone store).
If you know appropriate experienced specialists this isn't basiclly a difficult task; but however time-consuming.
Actually sound colouration comes mainly from the loudspeaker/crossover and less from the amplifier topology. But to a certain extent this one could also come by particularly pronounced low order THD (mostly through second and third harmonic). These distortions are hardly perceived.
High order THD (>H5) don't make sound colouration. Instead of this the sound is harsh and sharp, if such distortion components are present in the mid-high frequency aera (no matter for the low frequency aera).
An other very very disturbing effect are the power compression of the power supply. If you compare the LK2-80 with internal supply and external supply (Spark), you will know, what I mean. This also isn't sound colouration. This is level-dependend sound variation - hard to bear, at least for me. Therefore I hate cheap electrolytic caps and small transformers in general.
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If you only need one watt then (I think) no-one would disagree that a deep class A design will be "best". (Fine if you have 120db/w speakers).
On the other hand, if you need 1kW (and maybe 5 channels of it) to drive your 84db/w speakers there would be significant dissent about whether deep Class A was "best".
Might be interesting, but I doubt anyone here could agree on a united design 😀
And you are dead wrong about the commercial companies
They dont need more than one or two good designers
And they have them
They can do anything "we" can, and then some
Its mainly a matter of budget and customer group
But its clear that even the best designer may need some "not technical advice", in between
I have known a local top class repair man, and never listened to music
But he could make any kind of electronics behave the way he wanted
A simple modest guy with simple needs, but exstremely skilled repair man
Yeah, Im sure he could have done it
..or if you want the best you dont settle for reproductions, you hire the original to perform for you a capella...! 😉
Hi everyone,
thanks for the replies.
Please try to understand that I am decorator/gardener by trade and therefore have very little deep knowledge of the world of electronics. I find the whole field very interesting however and am always trying to learn things in my own way.
event horizon; being that most of the designs on this forum are intended for domestic situations I would have thought that a 500 watt amp to be way over the top. I doubt that anyone can really jusify having much more than 100 watts available to them if they were honest. I know some of you guys have some massive sound systems at home.....but it is not what I was thinking about.....I should have been clearer.
Gordy; I would agree to a point that if you want a 10 watt amp then you should design a 10 watt amp and likewise for a 200 watt amp; but, are there not amplifiers that can have there output power increased by upping the rail voltages and/or adding more output devices without any major changes in design. When I said "scaleable" I meant only to a degree. Not from 5 watts to 500 watts. I know enough to realise that this is impossible with the same design.
destroyer X; the colour of sound that I prefer is jet black! the most profoundly deep and bottomless black. In other words precisely "zero" colour.
tiefbassuebertr; thank you for the detailed post with regard to your Linn Isobarik ideas. I'll bet that what you propose would make them sound a good deal better than I get at the moment. I'm using a Nad 2100 power envelope
amp at the moment which is fine for the moment.
The complexity of what you desribe is beyond what I can go to and besides I will not have these speakers forever. I have heard a pair of Linn PMS driven by a full six-pack of Naim power amps with a Linn Sondek/Ittok Koetsu turntable before (many moons ago) and that was an awesome set up......but how many thousands of £/$
tinitus; you are right about large commercial companies not needing the resources that exist on this forum....I was wrong about that. They do, as you say, have commercial considerations and budgets in mind. However surely they are also slightly constrained by the mindset of the company and the inertia created by there own product line and patents available to them.
What I read on this forum is a lot of very interesting "stage left" thinking going on... out of the box, so to speak. Nelson Pass and destroyer x being prime examples. It is this type of thinking that I believe might come up with the world's best amplifier. The law of diminishing returns should always be remembered here. The best amplifier in the world...."as near as dammit"
So, I get the impression ( I have read destroyer X's similar thread to this) that nobody is ever going to agree what is the world's best amplifer... forever!
This makes for a long journey but an interesting one I guess.
To narrow the design criteria down a bit I would say (for me) the best amplifier in the world would have the following features;
1: it should be completely silent at all frequencies and power outputs...no hiss, no humm, and no thumps or clicks.
2: the power output would be around 100 watts
3: protection circuits should cover "all" eventualities
4: it should be stable down to 1 ohm
5: it should use components that have proven long term reliabilty in service and be readily available.
6: all distortion levels should be practically un-measurable.
7: it could be class A, class A/B, class D, Gainclone, Tripath, Susan Parker Zeus, or whatever other new technology comes about.
How would one go about achieving this? or does such a thing already exist?
From my impressions reading this forum the AKSA amps get the most votes for top amp, so is this the best amp in the world? For sound at least?
🙂🙂🙂
thanks for the replies.
Please try to understand that I am decorator/gardener by trade and therefore have very little deep knowledge of the world of electronics. I find the whole field very interesting however and am always trying to learn things in my own way.
event horizon; being that most of the designs on this forum are intended for domestic situations I would have thought that a 500 watt amp to be way over the top. I doubt that anyone can really jusify having much more than 100 watts available to them if they were honest. I know some of you guys have some massive sound systems at home.....but it is not what I was thinking about.....I should have been clearer.
Gordy; I would agree to a point that if you want a 10 watt amp then you should design a 10 watt amp and likewise for a 200 watt amp; but, are there not amplifiers that can have there output power increased by upping the rail voltages and/or adding more output devices without any major changes in design. When I said "scaleable" I meant only to a degree. Not from 5 watts to 500 watts. I know enough to realise that this is impossible with the same design.
destroyer X; the colour of sound that I prefer is jet black! the most profoundly deep and bottomless black. In other words precisely "zero" colour.
tiefbassuebertr; thank you for the detailed post with regard to your Linn Isobarik ideas. I'll bet that what you propose would make them sound a good deal better than I get at the moment. I'm using a Nad 2100 power envelope
amp at the moment which is fine for the moment.
The complexity of what you desribe is beyond what I can go to and besides I will not have these speakers forever. I have heard a pair of Linn PMS driven by a full six-pack of Naim power amps with a Linn Sondek/Ittok Koetsu turntable before (many moons ago) and that was an awesome set up......but how many thousands of £/$
tinitus; you are right about large commercial companies not needing the resources that exist on this forum....I was wrong about that. They do, as you say, have commercial considerations and budgets in mind. However surely they are also slightly constrained by the mindset of the company and the inertia created by there own product line and patents available to them.
What I read on this forum is a lot of very interesting "stage left" thinking going on... out of the box, so to speak. Nelson Pass and destroyer x being prime examples. It is this type of thinking that I believe might come up with the world's best amplifier. The law of diminishing returns should always be remembered here. The best amplifier in the world...."as near as dammit"
So, I get the impression ( I have read destroyer X's similar thread to this) that nobody is ever going to agree what is the world's best amplifer... forever!
This makes for a long journey but an interesting one I guess.
To narrow the design criteria down a bit I would say (for me) the best amplifier in the world would have the following features;
1: it should be completely silent at all frequencies and power outputs...no hiss, no humm, and no thumps or clicks.
2: the power output would be around 100 watts
3: protection circuits should cover "all" eventualities
4: it should be stable down to 1 ohm
5: it should use components that have proven long term reliabilty in service and be readily available.
6: all distortion levels should be practically un-measurable.
7: it could be class A, class A/B, class D, Gainclone, Tripath, Susan Parker Zeus, or whatever other new technology comes about.
How would one go about achieving this? or does such a thing already exist?
From my impressions reading this forum the AKSA amps get the most votes for top amp, so is this the best amp in the world? For sound at least?
🙂🙂🙂
Hi jerryo, there is something you are missing...
Just because i might build an amp capable of 500W RMS doesn't mean i'll actually listen with the amplifier on full power, i'd probably be deaf if i did 😀
If you read a lot of threads on here you'll find all sorts of comments on the ratio of average to peak power that are determined by how a CD or record etc were mastered & released. Pop tends to be rather compressed & probably within 6db of the peak. I don't listen to pop...
There are a good few occasions when i crank things up. On these occasions i start wondering if i'm going to clip the amplifier 😱 It's not a good thing as the first thing that goes bye bye is the tweeter (usually), my tweeters cost over £200 each new, so i wouldn't be a happy bunny if i blew one.
I think most people that understand audio know that if the amplifier is more powerfull than the speakers can handle the first distortion that they hear will be from the speaker itself & to turn it down a tad, speakers will generally handle more power as long as it is clean. If you underpower a speaker the first distortion you'll hear will be the amp & the speaker might be stuffed already 😱
All an amp is is a modulated power supply, make that power supply big & you'll never have problems that you might have with something much smaller. It's called overkill, & i like it.
I guess most of the time i'll be listening at a few Watts per channel 😉 Nothing like the performance of a Ferrari over a mini (when it's needed).
Bests to you, Mark.
Well, you've just ruled out almost everything other than silicon based Class-AB or Class-D
I think that you are barking up the wrong tree: amplifiers are an almost solved problem (including AB silicon, thanks to Messrs Self & Dean and the disciples of Bob Pease) compared to speakers. I refer you to the thoughts of Ragnar Lian on speaker design issues.
If you really want to understand amplifiers then you should go and study the various important amplifiers of history: original RCA SET, the Loftin White, various Brooks PP 2A3, the Williamson, the JLH, the works of Douglas Self and Nelson Pass. Plus the aforementioned Hugh Dean and Bob Pease. Finally, have a look at Lynn Olson's Aurora.
I don't know about the AKSA as being the best amp in the world but I do know it has a very satisfied and happy user base.... myself included. 🙂
The NAD2100 from NAD's Monitor series is not bad, but too bad for full-range operation at the Linn DMS. To control for 2x B139 (bass range) it would be suited very good (perhaps the replace of caps against better versions necessary). And a power amp of the Aleph series for the Mid-High would be a very good choice.
My suggestion for the use of bi/multi-amping for every multi way - speakers in the world will be the royal way (silver bullet) from technical view, also if relatively costs are wanted. Unfortunately you need experienced personal in your aera who can do far more than normal High Fidelity audio dealers, because about the "plug and play" method a certainly (not particularly high) level of quality can not be exceeded - independend of the price class.
On the other hand by such procedures there are also a great disadvantage:
The resale value is only obtained if one use the "plug and play" method, because components in not original condition no one wants to have (no matter how good work was performed), unless someone like Mr Nelson Pass has altered/modify the original condition.
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Hello tiefbassuebertr,
the NAD was good value at ......if I remember correctly £65.00 and has served me well. I know that the best way to drive the Linn's is either bi amping of fully active. I personally could envisage bi- amping them but no further. The costs become prohibitive.
You suggest using one of the Aleph series for the mid/high's; what would your particular reasoning for this?
In your opinion what is the quietest amplifier that you know of.
The NAD 2100 gives out a hiss from the Linn's which would with more efficient speakers be annoying. The amp is quite old now so that probably does not help this.
Cheers
the NAD was good value at ......if I remember correctly £65.00 and has served me well. I know that the best way to drive the Linn's is either bi amping of fully active. I personally could envisage bi- amping them but no further. The costs become prohibitive.
You suggest using one of the Aleph series for the mid/high's; what would your particular reasoning for this?
In your opinion what is the quietest amplifier that you know of.
The NAD 2100 gives out a hiss from the Linn's which would with more efficient speakers be annoying. The amp is quite old now so that probably does not help this.
Cheers
what means "The NAD 2100 gives out a hiss" ? Is this while switch-on or switch-off? Or is this noise/hum like always present? In which kind change this unwanted disturbing behaviour by adjust the volume control at the NAD2400? Check in all cases unwanted transition effects by all the chynch connectors (carefully cleaning the leads and connector housings). Also carefully cleaning of the relais contacts (loudspeaker delayed switch on and DC protect) at both channels is certainly necessary.
In most cases it is very hard to say after first look, whether the reason for such effects comes from insite or outside of the power amp.
The Aleph series (and in general all solid state single ended power amplifiers) provide a very "ear-friendly" spectrum of distortion (in opposite to push pull amps). No push-pull power amp will this reach. But the disadvantage is the large loss power. But if you use such amp only with small output power (for prefered use in the mid/high aera) the disadvantage isn't too large. Check out therefore the articles of Nelson Pass.
About this thread you will find more brands of single ended amps:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...ended-integrated-power-amplifier-devices.html
I don't understand the term "quietest amplifier". Perhaps the best suited amplifier in the single amping mode for Linn's ISOBARIK DMS? If yes I would say, the Yamaha MX-10000, the largest Aleph-version or the TVA1 (TVA-1, Tube) from Michaelson und Austin
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