I am a total beginner in audio, (but not at all in electronics and construction) and also not really gifted with my ears 
So I want to build from scratch some decent boxes, in the 100 W RMS range for my SS ampli. For my electronics experience, I don't trust much on linearity of systems with passive filters, so I would like to do with a Full-Range. I have some friends that insist that drivers with less than 10" can't really reproduce bass, so I am thinking to start with something from 8" up. Maybe I will add a separate piezo tweeter after (bi amp or so). I am tempted to use some of such drivers from Fostex or Ciare. Even I am so crazy that I am examining the possibility to use such dual cones intended for car audio. Even the good brands looks cheaper than home hi-fi ones and they are indeed robust and well built.
Any guideline would help me a lot.
Thanks,
effebi
So I want to build from scratch some decent boxes, in the 100 W RMS range for my SS ampli. For my electronics experience, I don't trust much on linearity of systems with passive filters, so I would like to do with a Full-Range. I have some friends that insist that drivers with less than 10" can't really reproduce bass, so I am thinking to start with something from 8" up. Maybe I will add a separate piezo tweeter after (bi amp or so). I am tempted to use some of such drivers from Fostex or Ciare. Even I am so crazy that I am examining the possibility to use such dual cones intended for car audio. Even the good brands looks cheaper than home hi-fi ones and they are indeed robust and well built.
Any guideline would help me a lot.
Thanks,
effebi
Hi Effebi
Look around on the forum you will see numerous designs being discussed.
People are saying good things about Markaudio's fullrange drivers, fostex is the other popular brand. A large number of designs are available designs using drivers from these two manufacturers. the links below are a good start
frugal-horn.com
The planet10 site
T line speakers
and Martin J King's website
hope this helps,
cheers,
mymindinside
Look around on the forum you will see numerous designs being discussed.
People are saying good things about Markaudio's fullrange drivers, fostex is the other popular brand. A large number of designs are available designs using drivers from these two manufacturers. the links below are a good start
frugal-horn.com
The planet10 site
T line speakers
and Martin J King's website
hope this helps,
cheers,
mymindinside
They obviously haven't heard 1 or 2 EL70 in an appropriate box.... Any FR is a candidate for a sub, or a pair of active woofers regaredless of size, i'd rather add help at the bottom than at the top
I still feel that the FR sweet spot is 4-5", lsrger drivers give up mid, top to get bottom. With that in mind the Alpair 10.2 is going to be a killer.
dave
First, thanks everybody for the nice hospitality, I am new here, and i even did not introduce myself properly 
. Regardless I got immediately two nice and competent answers...
Then, I had a fast look on those projects,
I am lookin to something really for dumb beginners.
Do you mean twin drivers in-phase in a box? Then this makes sense, to me... The rest I did not understand quite well . What is FR??? And do you mean that Alpair 10.2 Project has the good bass that I am looking for without a big cone area? That would be fantastic.
On a side note, i am listening mostly classic rock. The bass test that comes to my mind now is the helicopter in "The Wall"...
Please be patient,thanks
effebi
. Regardless I got immediately two nice and competent answers...Then, I had a fast look on those projects,
They look indeed nice, but they really are too advanced for me. I.e. that "Frugal Horn" does not look frugal at all to me. Maybe it should be named "Magnific Horn".
I am lookin to something really for dumb beginners.
Do you mean twin drivers in-phase in a box? Then this makes sense, to me... The rest I did not understand quite well . What is FR??? And do you mean that Alpair 10.2 Project has the good bass that I am looking for without a big cone area? That would be fantastic.
On a side note, i am listening mostly classic rock. The bass test that comes to my mind now is the helicopter in "The Wall"...
Please be patient,thanks
effebi
FH Mk3 is a lot easier than the original. Still, probably not for a 1st project without some woodworking experience.
Yes, FR=Full Range, Alpair 10.2 looks like it is going to have a really good balance of modrange magic and extension in both directions... still not the shear bass grunt of 2 pair of EL70s.
dave
The track , going from memory, is " another brick in the wall" Pink Floyd, of course ,and then (GRAZIE TONY) it should be exacly there :
On topic, if memory works well, boxes where at that time (1982 or 83) Avid with 10" woofers or more, ampli quite sure a NAD, getting in from a Metal tape (Denon? Nakamichi?) .
About project:
Very good infos, Mod! So is there any DiY proget around with
?
And, BTW, any place in EU to get those fantastic EL70 for a decent price?
Thanks
effebi
If your speakers do well, you will turn the head around looking for the (WOPPA-WOPPA-WOPPA) actual chopper... This really happened to me the first time I heard it, living beside a training field of Agusta-Bell
On topic, if memory works well, boxes where at that time (1982 or 83) Avid with 10" woofers or more, ampli quite sure a NAD, getting in from a Metal tape (Denon? Nakamichi?) .
About project:
Very good infos, Mod! So is there any DiY proget around with
?And, BTW, any place in EU to get those fantastic EL70 for a decent price?
Thanks
effebi
How about a vented bookshelf style cabinet with a 3" FR in a sealed chamber for .7 qtc with an 8-10" wideband woofer in a vented cab, and most importantly.. a simple 1st order network, crossed at around 1KHz?
Too bad the FF85K is gone. Or, you might still be able to find one somewhere.
The FaitalPro 3FE20 sure looks interesting:
http://www.faitalpro.com/img/products/schede/FES/3FE20/3FE20_datasheet.pdf
As for the woofer, I'm sure there are a few, and one that will stick out as the overall winner. Look to match sensitivity with the small full range (it won't be high, so low end extension will certainly be possible), and upper frequency response that extends as high as possible, but without sacrificing xmax and overall output potential.
Simple, easy, should yield very good results, I would think. I've often thought about doing it.
Too bad the FF85K is gone. Or, you might still be able to find one somewhere.
The FaitalPro 3FE20 sure looks interesting:
http://www.faitalpro.com/img/products/schede/FES/3FE20/3FE20_datasheet.pdf
As for the woofer, I'm sure there are a few, and one that will stick out as the overall winner. Look to match sensitivity with the small full range (it won't be high, so low end extension will certainly be possible), and upper frequency response that extends as high as possible, but without sacrificing xmax and overall output potential.
Simple, easy, should yield very good results, I would think. I've often thought about doing it.
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Thans for the hint, but, as I said, no passive filters. I really do not trust them linearity interacting with different drivers. Of course the 1st ord. would be the less worse, but I still prefer to go bi amp in case.
Then I omitted that what i want to play in is a nice 150 sq meter room, used mostly as a classic dance studio (that will provide me free run-in at low volume
). So I am looking more for solid floorstanding speakers. 30-60 liters (1-2 cubic feet) BR won't be a problem. The Amplifier, as Cal Weldon noted, would be a Hi-Fi SS capable of about 100W RMS on 8 Ohm. Playing on 16 Ohm serial connected pair won't be bad anyway.But from all the answers that I get, I did not understand clearly if a good bass response it is really feasible with small (3"-5") FRs, even paired.
I was looking al little bit around now, but the only thing that looks right to me is the EL70 paired kit from CSS, but seems not available in the old EU. What about pairing the (new?) Alpair 10.2? anybody tried already?.
Sorry if I am troubling you with my scarce skills.
As i said, I am a beginner, not ready to design myself at all on the speaker side.
Thanks
effebi
Effi,
I can vouch for the EL70's bass capability. You could try one in a BIB type box. The box would be 8.5"x11"x52.5" (WxDxH). The micro tower castle layout is a proven design with the EL70 also and a smaller box as well.
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/microTower-maps-150909.pdf
These are simple boxes to construct.
I can vouch for the EL70's bass capability. You could try one in a BIB type box. The box would be 8.5"x11"x52.5" (WxDxH). The micro tower castle layout is a proven design with the EL70 also and a smaller box as well.
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/microTower-maps-150909.pdf
These are simple boxes to construct.
Sweden -- Bygg din bas. Please contact Jonas.
Germany -- Spectrum Audio
Netherlands -- juoiga
CHP-70 from Blue Planet can be looked at as a close relative of EL70 -- both came from an earlier CHP
dave
Yes, Jonas from Bygg Din Bas helped me to get my EL70. I think he imported them from Hifitalo in Finland.
In my Mar-Kel70 boxes they do produce a quite good amount of bass. Not enough for playing heavy metal at loud volume but for near-field it's well enough and if i place them further away it's still quite good.
In a bigger box, and two of them, they should be able to produce enough bass i think.
Btw, Dave. Do you have any "excursion-graph" so i can see when i run out of xmax? Should i expect them to run out of xmax before getting too hot or vice versa?
I haven't pushed them so far really but i'm pushing them a little bit more now since i got the XO at around 100hz.
In my Mar-Kel70 boxes they do produce a quite good amount of bass. Not enough for playing heavy metal at loud volume but for near-field it's well enough and if i place them further away it's still quite good.
In a bigger box, and two of them, they should be able to produce enough bass i think.
Btw, Dave. Do you have any "excursion-graph" so i can see when i run out of xmax? Should i expect them to run out of xmax before getting too hot or vice versa?
I haven't pushed them so far really but i'm pushing them a little bit more now since i got the XO at around 100hz.
Just do the sensitive thing and build a BIB. It's close to as good at you can get with a FR currently. It's not at efficient as a classic horn, but close enough, and much easier to build, and far more wideband and precise than a basreflex.
And the Big in BIB isn't really to be taken so literally, it's not much bigger than any other horn of similar ability.
And the Big in BIB isn't really to be taken so literally, it's not much bigger than any other horn of similar ability.
I like the micro tower (as I do in PCs
) , but about your other suggestion I did not find any BIB recipe for EL 70s . Is A BIB a ported speaker or not?Also I am confused about all those EL70-look-alike drivers. Are they (almost) the same as the CHP 70 ? And then what about the CHR 70? Are the latter better on bass or overall sound quality?
thanks
effebi
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The BIB is just a very simple to make horn, with the driver placed somewhere in the first half of the line. Just type in BIB in google you'll get tonnes of hits.I like the micro tower (as I do in PCs
Effi, try this link: Bigger Is Better 'BIB' Cabinet Dimensions - ZillaSpeak
There is a spread sheet where you can enter different drivers and it will give you all the dimensions. You might look at the Tang Band W4 1879 too. It goes lower than the EL70 and might be more available where you are.
There is a spread sheet where you can enter different drivers and it will give you all the dimensions. You might look at the Tang Band W4 1879 too. It goes lower than the EL70 and might be more available where you are.
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