First time speaker builder here, and I'm playing with a few designs (recently built a test-run Suzy Chang with the Pioneer A11EC80-02F 4.5"). I'm now working on BD Pipes with the same driver, but after getting a dry run completed and wiring it up with the Suzy Chang as the 2nd channel, I'm finding them (both) to be QUITE thin. Not bad mid and upper, but virtually no mid-bass and below. Not measured, just what I hear.
Now, I had trouble with the conversion from metric to inches and ended up with somewhat off measurements (1/2 inch less in depth and an inch or so shorter in height I think), and the bottom port is currently a 1 3/4 inch at about 4-5 inches long (something I had lying around). Thus far there's no damping inside and things aren't fully sealed up yet.
Other builders have reported good bass response so I'm wondering what kinds of things might cause this. The driver seems reasonably close to the Radio Shack 40-1197 that others have used to good effect (see specs below), but could that be the problem? The measurement problems above? Lack of damping and/or sealing? Other problems?
The Pioneer specs from http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-010are:
Power handling: 20 watts RMS/30 watts max * Voice coil diameter: 1" * Impedance: 8 ohms * Frequency response: 70-15,000 Hz * Magnet weight: 9.3 oz. * Fs: 70 Hz * SPL: 90 dB 1W/1m * Vas: .31 cu. ft. * Xmax: 1.1mm * Qms: 1.40 * Qes: .47 * Qts: .35 *
Thanks a ton,
Carl
Now, I had trouble with the conversion from metric to inches and ended up with somewhat off measurements (1/2 inch less in depth and an inch or so shorter in height I think), and the bottom port is currently a 1 3/4 inch at about 4-5 inches long (something I had lying around). Thus far there's no damping inside and things aren't fully sealed up yet.
Other builders have reported good bass response so I'm wondering what kinds of things might cause this. The driver seems reasonably close to the Radio Shack 40-1197 that others have used to good effect (see specs below), but could that be the problem? The measurement problems above? Lack of damping and/or sealing? Other problems?
The Pioneer specs from http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-010are:
Power handling: 20 watts RMS/30 watts max * Voice coil diameter: 1" * Impedance: 8 ohms * Frequency response: 70-15,000 Hz * Magnet weight: 9.3 oz. * Fs: 70 Hz * SPL: 90 dB 1W/1m * Vas: .31 cu. ft. * Xmax: 1.1mm * Qms: 1.40 * Qes: .47 * Qts: .35 *
Thanks a ton,
Carl
Carlp said:
Hi Carl,
Port size in a ported design is IMPORTANT.
The BD pipes call for a port of 2.7" diam and 5.15" length.
Fix this first.
Then make sure all other joints (and the speakers) are mounted air-tight.
Then listen again. It should be much improved.
cheers
Doug
Will do, thanks Doug. I will say I now get the wide (and accurate) soundstage and some of the other benefits of single-driver/fullrange speakers I've read about. Man...
Carl
Carl
Carl-
I just finished building a pair of the BD pipes, and are very happy with the performance. I put pictures in the gallery a few days ago, so they are near the end of the thread.
I changed my port inside diameter to 2" so I could use standard 2" white PVC pipe.
The new length calculations were done as shown below:
Using the formula L2 = L1*(D2^2/D1^2), and the following port dimensions:
L1=131mm (old port length)
D1=68mm (old port diameter)
D2=50.8mm (2") (new port diameter)
I get a new port length of 73.11mm (2.878")
This worked very well for me.
Good luck!
Glenn
I just finished building a pair of the BD pipes, and are very happy with the performance. I put pictures in the gallery a few days ago, so they are near the end of the thread.
I changed my port inside diameter to 2" so I could use standard 2" white PVC pipe.
The new length calculations were done as shown below:
Using the formula L2 = L1*(D2^2/D1^2), and the following port dimensions:
L1=131mm (old port length)
D1=68mm (old port diameter)
D2=50.8mm (2") (new port diameter)
I get a new port length of 73.11mm (2.878")
This worked very well for me.
Good luck!
Glenn
OK, so now I've changed the port to a 2" (inner diameter) white PVC close to the 2.898" length Glenn recommends (as close as my primitive equipment would let me get...) and added damping (polyester fill from Mall Wart at <$2/lb), not stuffed tightly into the smaller half of the TL. Well, that has smoothed things out a tiny bit, and MAYBE boosted the low range a tad, but not much if at all.
I've also tried some other tests, and here's what I know. My commercial system includes a Marsh A200 amp (100w/c) and Vandersteen 1C speakers. That system, not surprisingly, can put out bass that I feel as much as hear (cetain songs that have accentuated bass - no sub needed here!). I've also been using a DIY El Cheapo 8w/c (+/-) push-pull driving Wharfdale Emerald 93C speakers, and that generates much less volume and considerably less bass than the other system, but I can still feel the bass on the same songs, just not as prominent.
Now, I'm not a big bass fan, but what I notice is that both amps with their respective speakers sound nicely full (good balance, full low end, not overbearing mids and highs, etc. etc.). But when I plug in the BD Pipes/Suzy Chang combo, I get nice mid and high end, but still almost nothing on the low end. I tried them on the Marsh and got much fuller overall sound and a hint of bass, but again, a bit anemic overall.
Next I will try sealing the cabinets better and maybe a bigger cross-section port (thanks Glenn for the other post on the port size calculator). But again, I wonder if the driver could be at fault at all. Also, while I stuffed damping in, I haven't yet added felt or other damping to the walls per others' builds.
Or am I just missing the boat here? Is this what I get with such a small fullrange driver? Wish I could hear others' builds.
Carl
I've also tried some other tests, and here's what I know. My commercial system includes a Marsh A200 amp (100w/c) and Vandersteen 1C speakers. That system, not surprisingly, can put out bass that I feel as much as hear (cetain songs that have accentuated bass - no sub needed here!). I've also been using a DIY El Cheapo 8w/c (+/-) push-pull driving Wharfdale Emerald 93C speakers, and that generates much less volume and considerably less bass than the other system, but I can still feel the bass on the same songs, just not as prominent.
Now, I'm not a big bass fan, but what I notice is that both amps with their respective speakers sound nicely full (good balance, full low end, not overbearing mids and highs, etc. etc.). But when I plug in the BD Pipes/Suzy Chang combo, I get nice mid and high end, but still almost nothing on the low end. I tried them on the Marsh and got much fuller overall sound and a hint of bass, but again, a bit anemic overall.
Next I will try sealing the cabinets better and maybe a bigger cross-section port (thanks Glenn for the other post on the port size calculator). But again, I wonder if the driver could be at fault at all. Also, while I stuffed damping in, I haven't yet added felt or other damping to the walls per others' builds.
Or am I just missing the boat here? Is this what I get with such a small fullrange driver? Wish I could hear others' builds.
Carl
Hi Carl,
1. Are both L and R equally low on bass?
2. Do you have the Pipes sitting on their natural base (plinth)? or do you have them sitting atop something else. (They are designed to be floorstanders. If you have them raised, you will get less bass.)
3. Do you have L and R in the same phase? Are the speakers' internal connections in consistent phase? Out of phase connections, either internally, or between L and R will cause problems. Worth double-checking.
cheers
Doug
1. Are both L and R equally low on bass?
2. Do you have the Pipes sitting on their natural base (plinth)? or do you have them sitting atop something else. (They are designed to be floorstanders. If you have them raised, you will get less bass.)
3. Do you have L and R in the same phase? Are the speakers' internal connections in consistent phase? Out of phase connections, either internally, or between L and R will cause problems. Worth double-checking.
cheers
Doug
Thanks again, Doug. I thought about phase, but after I last had them open so didn't check that. I'll try to do that tomorrow. Worth a try anyway.
Oh, and L and R channels are both equally low. But remember one is BD Pipes, and one is Suzy Chang (in 1/2 ugly old plywood as a prototype build - my first speaker ever!). More soon I hope on the phase question.
Ahhhhh. Phase. There was a problem there. Now they sound MUCH better. That's the first time I've heard out-of-phase, and it's surprising how much it affects the performance.
So, bass still isn't substantial but it's not bad, and I can at least hear most of the frequencies, and the rest of the sound is quite nice. I'm guessing fine-tuning the port and sealing the box will make things noticeably better. In any case, I'm very pleased with them now. Thanks so much for helping me out.
Carl
PS - OK, maybe this'll show my ignorance, but are the terminals on a driver polarized? That is, the Pioneers come with one terminal marked red, the other not. Does it matter which terminal get's which speaker line, provided all drivers are connected the same?
So, bass still isn't substantial but it's not bad, and I can at least hear most of the frequencies, and the rest of the sound is quite nice. I'm guessing fine-tuning the port and sealing the box will make things noticeably better. In any case, I'm very pleased with them now. Thanks so much for helping me out.
Carl
PS - OK, maybe this'll show my ignorance, but are the terminals on a driver polarized? That is, the Pioneers come with one terminal marked red, the other not. Does it matter which terminal get's which speaker line, provided all drivers are connected the same?
Carlp said:
1. You've gotta love a happy ending ...
2. It serves as a reference to work out which whether the positive-going voltage (i.e. from your amp) will produce a forward-wave or a backwards wave.
In practice, it helps avoid such problems as you've had, if we always assign red to R, black to L and, with striped double-core wire, negative to the striped.
Doug
Brisso57 said:
With Zip cord in this neck of the woods we have always used the striped or ridged one for hot/red.
With Cat 5 we use stripped as neg & solid as plus.
Convention says that the plus connection of the driver is the one connected to the plus of the battery when momentarily connecting the battery makes the speaker cone move out.
dave
famous el cheapo speaker
One of the better low cost speaker, like this el cheapo speakers at $11/each, any chance on picture or detail of the cabinet?, works well in Mikasa cabinet. With the helper tweeter.
gychang
One of the better low cost speaker, like this el cheapo speakers at $11/each, any chance on picture or detail of the cabinet?, works well in Mikasa cabinet. With the helper tweeter.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
gychang
Thanks, Doug. And happy it was such an easy solution (albeit now I've gotta wipe the egg off o' my face). I thought polarity didn't really matter so long as the connections were consistent, but I agree about sticking with a widely used convention (at least widely used in the DIY community). Now as to Dave's comment, which is likely to be the positive connection, the red or the unmarked (or do I have to check with a battery, which I'm not at all comfortable doing)?
I'll try to post some fotos later tonight, but the BD Pipes still have clamps on the side as I'm working out the port size and still need to do some damping. And again, the Suzy Chang is out of ROUGH, weathered 1/2" ply (sheathing grade, I think
). Meanwhile, yet another nice set o' pipes there, gychang! You are prolific! Thanks for sharing them. Which design is that?
Carl
I'll try to post some fotos later tonight, but the BD Pipes still have clamps on the side as I'm working out the port size and still need to do some damping. And again, the Suzy Chang is out of ROUGH, weathered 1/2" ply (sheathing grade, I think
). Meanwhile, yet another nice set o' pipes there, gychang! You are prolific! Thanks for sharing them. Which design is that?Carl
Carlp said:
If something is still screwy yes you will... the markings on a driver are not always correct.
dave
OK, here are some pics. Remember, the Suzy Chang needs to be re-built, probably in birch ply. But I'm impressed even with the rough build. First pics are the Suzy Chang. Note the El Cheapo to the right of the 1st pic (12 or 6AQ5 amp by Eli Duttman at http://www.audiophiletalk.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1126228937/0).
3rd and 4th pics are of the BD Pipes. I'd hoped this would be the final build of this one, but due to my measurement errors, my forgetting to adjust the rear firing baffle for the 4 1/2" driver (instead of the 4" ratshack), and my poor choice of joinery, I may just scrap this build (or give it to someone else) and re-do them better.
Happily listening with El Cheapo as I type, to Ed Gerhart (http://www.virtuerecords.com/), Miles Davis and that walking bass line on Diana Krall's version of Temptation.
Carl
3rd and 4th pics are of the BD Pipes. I'd hoped this would be the final build of this one, but due to my measurement errors, my forgetting to adjust the rear firing baffle for the 4 1/2" driver (instead of the 4" ratshack), and my poor choice of joinery, I may just scrap this build (or give it to someone else) and re-do them better.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Happily listening with El Cheapo as I type, to Ed Gerhart (http://www.virtuerecords.com/), Miles Davis and that walking bass line on Diana Krall's version of Temptation.
Carl
Just a few last things. The BD Pipes show dark joints on the rear baffle (is it really a baffle? it's so small...) which are where my saw burned a bit on the 45 degree cuts. That's one of the joinery mistakes I made. Also, that baffle has finish nails temporarily holding it in place, as I need to re-cut it (and probably resize it for the larger driver). But again, I'll probably try another build with a different approach, and if that works out, I'll probably rebuild the first.
Carl
Carl
Just a quick update and FWIW on the BD Pipes (mostly in case someone else searches and reads this thread). I gave up on them for a while as I didn't have time and wasn't overly happy with the results. Just didn't want to throw good time after bad (the DIY version of throwing good money after bad). But then I got some free time and decided to re-build these (a pair this time).
Whoa!
Now these speakers have tight, fairly deep and highly enjoyable bass as well as the clear (although a bit forward) mids and decent highs (I suppose a tweeter would help but I don't miss it yet).
Lessons learned:
1. I built to tighter dimensional specs and used a port much closer to the design. Not perfect as I was trying to get these done in the limited time I had, but much better then the earlier build.
2. I thoroughly sealed the boxes and the drivers in their mounting holes. This, I think, is probably a BIG part of the improved bass response.
3. I let them "burn in." I'm not much of a believer in "burn-in" periods, tending to think it's more a case of my ears "burning-in" instead of the equipment. But in this case, over just a few days, the bass in particular has developed nicely.
4. There just may be something to the dipole design for baffle diffraction.
5. Oh, and the birch ply I used (3/4 nominally, but really 11/16ths) has a VERY thin veneer which I proceeded to burn or plane through in a number of spots. Be forewarned!
In short, I'm quite happy with them now.
Whoa!
Now these speakers have tight, fairly deep and highly enjoyable bass as well as the clear (although a bit forward) mids and decent highs (I suppose a tweeter would help but I don't miss it yet).
Lessons learned:
1. I built to tighter dimensional specs and used a port much closer to the design. Not perfect as I was trying to get these done in the limited time I had, but much better then the earlier build.
2. I thoroughly sealed the boxes and the drivers in their mounting holes. This, I think, is probably a BIG part of the improved bass response.
3. I let them "burn in." I'm not much of a believer in "burn-in" periods, tending to think it's more a case of my ears "burning-in" instead of the equipment. But in this case, over just a few days, the bass in particular has developed nicely.
4. There just may be something to the dipole design for baffle diffraction.
5. Oh, and the birch ply I used (3/4 nominally, but really 11/16ths) has a VERY thin veneer which I proceeded to burn or plane through in a number of spots. Be forewarned!
In short, I'm quite happy with them now.
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