I edited my post slightly, to reflect this. Yes even a snare drum can be reasonably low in fundamental and can give some feel if at sufficient SPL; probably a poor choice of example, in retrospect. In effect almost any noise can be felt, if loud enough, though here of course we are talking about typical SPLs and frequency distributions of music so at least that helps limit the discussion.
Though the meaning is clear, and stands; audible impact is rarely separate in real music from physical vibration ('feel'). Knowing what I do about human perception and objectiveness, most people would not reliably separate the two. Hence, perhaps, why we get questions about perceived speed and attack in a realm which is only about felt vibration.
The fundamental frequency of a kickdrum can be between 30 and 150Hz, but the overtones and transients go way higher and are as important for the feel. If you've been a sound engineer like i was in my younger years, you know that. With a real drumset kick you won't have much below 50Hz in most cases, but a lot of music where you don't expect it has a sample or a drumsynth mixed with the original signal to give more bottom punch. That is a very often used trick since the 1970's, even in rock or pop music that sounds fully recorded with real instruments.
And with more sample or electronic generated music the kick is often going very low as standard. The infamous roland TR-808 kick can (depending on how it's used) to to even 25Hz as fundamental, and that is probally the most used kickdrum synthsound used today in many genres (including modern pop).
And with more sample or electronic generated music the kick is often going very low as standard. The infamous roland TR-808 kick can (depending on how it's used) to to even 25Hz as fundamental, and that is probally the most used kickdrum synthsound used today in many genres (including modern pop).
Where i can find this calculator?
This is what i was trying to say with my "calculations" .
I was studying woofers parameters, and design, plus personal testing.
In car audio in the budget region,normal people wants a woofer that can kick and can go decent low and doesn't need a loot of power.Pioneer, sony, jbl. You can get all of that with low mms woofers, basically midbass drivers that can get decent low because of a high vas.
And i believe is a rule for that, above a giving mss and bl you cant get that bass feel because of inertia is my assumption. You might say is spl, but a small driver can kick harder than a larger one that can get louder but is too heavy and not designed for that.
Absolutely.
Until the fact that transient response = frequency response becomes written into our minds,
I don't think we can reach even first base trying to understand bass transients.
Car cabin gain increases SPL below 30Hz, generally associated with occipital lobe excitation ("eyeball wobble") and may reduce the relative mid bass "kick" in the 50-200 Hz chest resonance range.
If you want more "kick", EQ your speakers to have a more flat response through the mid bass region.
Or use speakers with less low bass to result in a flatter cabin response.
That said, car environments can cause lingering resonance that masks any low percussive effects- you don't hear/feel much "kick" when there is a louder "drone tone".
Depends on the recording and instruments.
Chest thump is closer to 100 Hz and up even to 200 Hz
Cheap sub with plate amp sounds feasible.
More likely for small size sub to be crossed high 150 Hz
many subs in car or even home cross at 60 to 80 Hz
80 Hz and lower not likely for thump, is just muffled or deep sound for many music types.
Even a sharp snare drum hit can have bass thumps. If the content is in recording.
We added bottom mic to snare for harder hit sound in recordings. A kick drum for sharper transient also added mic to hammer side of kick drum.
I got deeper body experiences or thump when using large door speakers in car. 6x9 or 8" driver in door.
Very intense cello or bass resonances in classical were enjoyable too. good for rock or popular music as well.
Depending on genre I often turn down my subs in the car, they bloom or smear to much. Many music lacks sub content. boosting 80 hz sub too much often not pleasing. My best setups were when moving from ported 15" trend, to sealed 12" in car, I tended to cross high 125 Hz since my musically tastes are very wide. Found bass lines in normal music sounded clear, had less smear or bloom or strange distance to recordings with bass guitar.
Good drums and bass guitar and snare hits were with large door speakers.
Im big fan of 8" drivers at home for mid bass/bass as well. Very nice for deep instruments that ring or resonant such as classical strings.
Depends on quality of recordings.
finding these relations you claim with mms and others is misleading assumption. Qts is overall relation between electrical/ mechanical.
That will tell you a simple relation between hundreds of variables over many driver types.
I have had "chest thump" with a wide range of driver types, either loose or tight suspension or light or heavy cones.
Car or live audio or home. Chest thump in a " sub" would be a driver that has enough clarity to cross 125 or even 150 Hz high crossover point.
And high enough sound pressure,
Many high inductance subs even many typical car subs, dont have much clarity above 60 or 80 Hz so chest thump be any good sub or bass driver for high spl which has actual clarity above 100 Hz. so sure plenty of pro sound drivers to be loud enough, but the expierence would not be limited to them or some magical science relation to driver specs. it is just 100Hz and up at high spl and the recording itself
Chest thump is closer to 100 Hz and up even to 200 Hz
Cheap sub with plate amp sounds feasible.
More likely for small size sub to be crossed high 150 Hz
many subs in car or even home cross at 60 to 80 Hz
80 Hz and lower not likely for thump, is just muffled or deep sound for many music types.
Even a sharp snare drum hit can have bass thumps. If the content is in recording.
We added bottom mic to snare for harder hit sound in recordings. A kick drum for sharper transient also added mic to hammer side of kick drum.
I got deeper body experiences or thump when using large door speakers in car. 6x9 or 8" driver in door.
Very intense cello or bass resonances in classical were enjoyable too. good for rock or popular music as well.
Depending on genre I often turn down my subs in the car, they bloom or smear to much. Many music lacks sub content. boosting 80 hz sub too much often not pleasing. My best setups were when moving from ported 15" trend, to sealed 12" in car, I tended to cross high 125 Hz since my musically tastes are very wide. Found bass lines in normal music sounded clear, had less smear or bloom or strange distance to recordings with bass guitar.
Good drums and bass guitar and snare hits were with large door speakers.
Im big fan of 8" drivers at home for mid bass/bass as well. Very nice for deep instruments that ring or resonant such as classical strings.
Depends on quality of recordings.
finding these relations you claim with mms and others is misleading assumption. Qts is overall relation between electrical/ mechanical.
That will tell you a simple relation between hundreds of variables over many driver types.
I have had "chest thump" with a wide range of driver types, either loose or tight suspension or light or heavy cones.
Car or live audio or home. Chest thump in a " sub" would be a driver that has enough clarity to cross 125 or even 150 Hz high crossover point.
And high enough sound pressure,
Many high inductance subs even many typical car subs, dont have much clarity above 60 or 80 Hz so chest thump be any good sub or bass driver for high spl which has actual clarity above 100 Hz. so sure plenty of pro sound drivers to be loud enough, but the expierence would not be limited to them or some magical science relation to driver specs. it is just 100Hz and up at high spl and the recording itself
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I am the calculator... Sort of... I told AI the formulas, and then hand fed the data and eventually created a graph I liked after trial and error.
Misnomer. A transient isn't a FR specific event. Low frequency Transients contain broad spectrum content and within that content there is HF..... HF does not equate to transient.
I think thats a stretch. I think at long distance you are now experiencing room, larger rooms have longer reverberation times in low bass. This adds a level of visceralness, in my opinion.
I'm pretty sure, it's not the sub, it's the upper bass that follows the sub frequency at 80-150 Hz. In this region your midwoofers need to move some buckets of air for the feel of the kickbass. I've got this problem too, and my sub delivers, but the midwoofers have just 2.6mm linear excursion and that is my problem. I tried to make this better, by adding a second midwoofer, but the sound just got richer but still no kick.
Atm i've got the sub going up to 80Hz, then taken out with 36dB/oct. 2 of the midwoofers go from 80- 500Hz then fading out with 48dB/oct. while the 3rd mw goes up to 1900Hz where the tweeter takes over.
As this was my first try in diy, i didn't pay enough attention on the linear travel of the mw's.
For this problem there are 2 possibilties: new speakers with 6.5" midwoofers,or get some midwoofers with more cone travel. I think, i'll try the second solution.
As chassis i took a look at the SICA 5.5 1.
5 CP, the dayton RS150-8 and a model by ScanSpeak ( forgot the number).
I'm pretty sure this will do the trick, as the speakers already sound a 1000times better than i dared to imagine.
Best regards
Jochen
Atm i've got the sub going up to 80Hz, then taken out with 36dB/oct. 2 of the midwoofers go from 80- 500Hz then fading out with 48dB/oct. while the 3rd mw goes up to 1900Hz where the tweeter takes over.
As this was my first try in diy, i didn't pay enough attention on the linear travel of the mw's.
For this problem there are 2 possibilties: new speakers with 6.5" midwoofers,or get some midwoofers with more cone travel. I think, i'll try the second solution.
As chassis i took a look at the SICA 5.5 1.
5 CP, the dayton RS150-8 and a model by ScanSpeak ( forgot the number).
I'm pretty sure this will do the trick, as the speakers already sound a 1000times better than i dared to imagine.
Best regards
Jochen
😮💨i know..
Inside, outside or just sitting near the subs. Or using them in house. The same sh
Yes.
My post is about what makes a woofer do a chest kick. Well all you need is a midbass driver, midbass drivers are digned with low cone mass and a strong motor, increase the vas and you can have kinda a subwoofer.
And, i think there is s border in mms/bl ratio that if is passed you can't feel the midbass. Subs are heavy and inefficient at high frequencies by design, but even with multiple subwoofers you can't really feel the midbass, you can do hair tricks and feel the ar compressing and decompressing around you,is as nice as a midbass kick, is the subwoofers thing. I think this has something to do with that mms/bl ratio
Can you please confirm the frequency range which you are speaking of here.
Enjoyable thread👍
I went from a system with straight 90Hz to 350Hz exponential horns and tapped horns 90Hz and down to MEH SH50 alikes that do around 55Hz to 325Hz (same Kappa 12A drivers, but two per channel instead of one).
I never got much kick from the straight exp horns / tapped horns set up.
Lovely defined and melodic bass note for note etc but no kick.
The MEH horns are part horn loaded part reflex with twin ports. All within the same conical horn.
It feels like the tapped horns are now doing the frequency range they do really well.
They measure flat upto 90 or even 100Hz with good SPL but..
Twin 12" at 60Hz bit reflexy beat one 15".
I much prefer the MEH 'experience' and the effect it can have on visitors🙂
I went from a system with straight 90Hz to 350Hz exponential horns and tapped horns 90Hz and down to MEH SH50 alikes that do around 55Hz to 325Hz (same Kappa 12A drivers, but two per channel instead of one).
I never got much kick from the straight exp horns / tapped horns set up.
Lovely defined and melodic bass note for note etc but no kick.
The MEH horns are part horn loaded part reflex with twin ports. All within the same conical horn.
It feels like the tapped horns are now doing the frequency range they do really well.
They measure flat upto 90 or even 100Hz with good SPL but..
Twin 12" at 60Hz bit reflexy beat one 15".
I much prefer the MEH 'experience' and the effect it can have on visitors🙂
How does this work when none of those body parts share any dimensions relevant to those wavelegths (or if we used speed of sound in water/cells)?
In a enclosure/box, you want the sound wave generated by the driver to be reinforced (gain sound amplitude dBA) itself while you want the box to be as stiff as possible and in this case geometry is easier correlated to the wave length you are interest.
In body resonance (human or object) it's not that easy to correlate wave length to body size, material plays a lot, a bosy with the same size and different material will have difference resonance frequencies, it's much more complex. In this case the sound wave will reinforce body vibration (gain vibration amplitude m/s²).
Think in terms of Helmholtz resonance, one can tune any cavity to any frequency using the correct ratio of cavity volume to port volume, regardless of dimension.
The most easily "felt" resonance in most meat bags is usually the chest cavity/throat/mouth system, which happens to correspond to the "kick" range.
It's Helmholtz resonance changes depending on how much air is in your lungs at any given moment.
Since people have a wide range of body/chest size and muscle density, they respond differently to the same impulse.
Other parts, like eye sockets, tend to be more fixed in frequency, and take higher atmospheric overpressure/underpressure variations to notice.
I mistakenly substituted "occipital lobe", the back part of the brain that processes visual information for "orbit", (the eye socket) in post #46.
I've never experienced anything loud enough to directly "feel" vibrations in my occipital lobe.
At any rate, it takes about +20dB more pressure for my eyes to wobble than to feel it in my chest.
Art
The fact that transient response = frequency response is not a misnomer, and is not debatable, if the definition of transient response is the same one long used by the scientific audio world.
The ability or inability to produce the broad spectrum content included in low frequency transients, is exactly what determines the transient response of the system trying to reproduce the low frequency transient.