Hello everyone.
So i wrote to a Manufacturer that i. don`t want to name which is selling a Coaxial 2 way Driver and they are also selling a ready made Crossover for the Driver.
However on the Site there is a Frequency Responce Measurement of the Driver+Crossover but there is not mention anywhere what Baffle dimensions, what (if any) Ports , Where they are placed etc etc .
I wrote 3 emails to their Support asking for the Baffle dimensions and in General more or less asking,
„What Baffle and what enclosure the Measured Response belongs to“ and also if they simply have a Picture of the measured Speaker.
Today and after insisting on the Baffle Dimensions and telling them that the Baffle dimensions are crucial (or at least i thought so) to the X-over design i got Following Response. What is your opinion and how would you respond?
-"I know what is the baffle but maybe you are confusing the words crossover and coaxial, that make me not understand!
To be more clear, the crossover do not need any baffle, need to be connected to the speaker and the liters doesn't matters.
If you are talking about the coaxial speaker, we don't give you the measure of the baffle but only the total liters that the box needed to be, the shape is on you, the important thing is the total air inside the box.
Hope to be clear“ -
Because to me it looks like someone who knows even less than me about speakers unless of course i got it all wrong and Baffle really is irrelevant to x-over design?
So i wrote to a Manufacturer that i. don`t want to name which is selling a Coaxial 2 way Driver and they are also selling a ready made Crossover for the Driver.
However on the Site there is a Frequency Responce Measurement of the Driver+Crossover but there is not mention anywhere what Baffle dimensions, what (if any) Ports , Where they are placed etc etc .
I wrote 3 emails to their Support asking for the Baffle dimensions and in General more or less asking,
„What Baffle and what enclosure the Measured Response belongs to“ and also if they simply have a Picture of the measured Speaker.
Today and after insisting on the Baffle Dimensions and telling them that the Baffle dimensions are crucial (or at least i thought so) to the X-over design i got Following Response. What is your opinion and how would you respond?
-"I know what is the baffle but maybe you are confusing the words crossover and coaxial, that make me not understand!
To be more clear, the crossover do not need any baffle, need to be connected to the speaker and the liters doesn't matters.
If you are talking about the coaxial speaker, we don't give you the measure of the baffle but only the total liters that the box needed to be, the shape is on you, the important thing is the total air inside the box.
Hope to be clear“ -
Because to me it looks like someone who knows even less than me about speakers unless of course i got it all wrong and Baffle really is irrelevant to x-over design?
I think there are a few things going on:
1) Sounds like you are dealing with people speaking in a non-native language. They could be using Google translate or just relying on their own ability to translate, which can make technical conversations more difficult.
2) For an average customer that's looking for basic advice, the enclosure volume is one of the more important things that has to be addressed, and they seem focused on that. They seem to think you're asking a weird question, and you seem to think they're giving a weird answer. The two of you are not on the same page, so it's hard to judge their knowledge. Explaining why you want the information you are asking for can sometimes make the question more obvious.
3) Even though you are not communicating the same ideas, at a basic level their take is right. For a general purpose crossover on a typical co-ax, the mid-to-tweeter crossover isn't likely to be affected by the baffle. They obviously don't know what size/shape your baffle is going to be. If you're the type of person that wants to model all the baffle effects, you probably aren't going to be using their suggested crossover anyway. Or you're going to modify it based on your needs. If you obsess about baffle step compensation in the design phase, you can likely model the response of the crossover and see what it's doing.
Unless stated otherwise, I would assume an IEC test baffle or infinite baffle was used (basically half-space). If someone is providing a full design package including the enclosure design, crossover design for that specific enclosure, etc., that's more likely to have design-specific measurements.
1) Sounds like you are dealing with people speaking in a non-native language. They could be using Google translate or just relying on their own ability to translate, which can make technical conversations more difficult.
2) For an average customer that's looking for basic advice, the enclosure volume is one of the more important things that has to be addressed, and they seem focused on that. They seem to think you're asking a weird question, and you seem to think they're giving a weird answer. The two of you are not on the same page, so it's hard to judge their knowledge. Explaining why you want the information you are asking for can sometimes make the question more obvious.
3) Even though you are not communicating the same ideas, at a basic level their take is right. For a general purpose crossover on a typical co-ax, the mid-to-tweeter crossover isn't likely to be affected by the baffle. They obviously don't know what size/shape your baffle is going to be. If you're the type of person that wants to model all the baffle effects, you probably aren't going to be using their suggested crossover anyway. Or you're going to modify it based on your needs. If you obsess about baffle step compensation in the design phase, you can likely model the response of the crossover and see what it's doing.
Unless stated otherwise, I would assume an IEC test baffle or infinite baffle was used (basically half-space). If someone is providing a full design package including the enclosure design, crossover design for that specific enclosure, etc., that's more likely to have design-specific measurements.
Thank you.
I find the response very weird and it does not help me choose to buy it somehow. I thought i ask a legitimate question
so i can know if its going to work well in the space i have available.. If they told be „the box has to have a baffle with 25cm width and 40 height (random numbers) „ i would be able to calculate if i can fit this in the spot the speakers have to fit it
Dunno
i always thought that enclosure volume size is the easiest thing to calculate while calculating crossovers and measuring the hardest part?
I can do the first part by myself but never learned more than building subwoofers or my old monitors (which had x-overs made by someone i paid to do so-develop them)
However i get what you mean about being on a different page.
English is not my native language either.
"mid-to-tweeter crossover isn't likely to be affected by the baffle. „. i was not aware of that, thanks for clarifying. So i am worrying without a reason i guess.
the response looked so linear and good in the graph that i in no way wanted to risk altering it
i just thought it is normal to want to know "what speaker the x-over was developed in“ as literally any Speaker Kit i can think of
always has the complete Cabinet measurements so you can replicate it.
but i guess it is what it is in this case.
thank you very much for the thorough answer. Helps put things into perspective
For someone that knows the basics, yes. But manufacturers have many different kinds of customers. Some customers know very little about design and may just be looking for a replacement driver to go in a box of X volume.
For a full speaker kit, you are correct. But raw drivers are normally measured on a standard test baffle. Even if the driver is a coaxial unit, it's still just a piece of the puzzle and is measured the same way all their other drivers are measured. If each driver was measured on a different size/shape baffle it would make it very hard to use that data for anything else, without going through more work to remove the effects of each oddly shaped test speaker box. A half space measurement is easier to understand and build off of.
Thank you again for the info. I love it when someone explains in an understandable way.
to the speaker kit ,,,, i guess when i look at Seas they dont even sell the x-over only the plan and they also show the cabinet dimensions
both for free.
In this case however they are asking 80+ euros for an x-over without any other info. Now don`t get me wrong i find 80 euros for a finished x-over
is a relatively bargain price and i like this. But would wish for some additional info somehow.
If the manufacturer is geared toward pro-sound (sound reinforcement, public address, concert sound, etc.), off-the-shelf basic crossovers tend to be the norm there. They aren't tuned for a finished design or necessarily voiced to audiophile leanings. They are more basic units to protect the tweeter, get the sensitivities in range, and provide a decent coverage pattern. I'm thinking of brands like Eminence, B&C, Radian, etc. Active equalization is also the norm there, so a basic crossover can usually get enough of the job done to let the rest be cleaned up with EQ.
Sorry if this doesn't apply to your scenario, but with limited info. it seemed like it might be relevant.
Sorry if this doesn't apply to your scenario, but with limited info. it seemed like it might be relevant.
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What you say makes perfect sense now. I did not think of that . They do indeed Pro stuff but this speaker-driver is getting more and more of a following. in the hifi audience and not only Pro.
just did not want to mention the brand cause my intention was not to expose them but rather get my bearing as to if i am thinking it
a bit wrong, wich to an extend i did.
So thanks a lot for the help. It is much appreciated
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You may find people discussing the use of the driver and crossover in home audio. Options are somewhat limited for solutions like this, so usually someone out there has tried it already and written about it. Many people enjoy building things, but aren't familiar with crossover design, so it's a pretty common scenario.
If you are OK using equalization in your system, it can make a lot of this a non-issue. Even a pretty unruly pro-sound driver can typically sound good with EQ. If the one you are interested in is well-behaved, it may be fine as is.
Baffle effects that are dealt with through the crossover are more typically baffle step losses, which tend to be lower in frequency.
If you are OK using equalization in your system, it can make a lot of this a non-issue. Even a pretty unruly pro-sound driver can typically sound good with EQ. If the one you are interested in is well-behaved, it may be fine as is.
Just to clarify this point a little, some people are worried about diffraction at baffle edges. That can cause ripples in the midrange/treble, but its audibility is still debated. Addressing that is usually done trough offsetting drivers, large roundovers, or other physical means. And some people just don't worry about it. You see plenty of commercial designs that obviously ignore it.
Baffle effects that are dealt with through the crossover are more typically baffle step losses, which tend to be lower in frequency.
For home-sized rooms(not arenas or auditoriums), baffle edge and driver placement issues are largely diffractory;
little ripples which wander through the FR as your listening angles change.
These are difficult to EQ, being
moving targets as you move around.(why they are often ignored)
Bass having longer wavelengths, it is less subject to diffraction, and so EQ works well for bsc.
This is good, as boundary effects change quickly with small placement changes in smaller rooms,
so we can fiddle with angles & location for imaging, then balance the bass.
little ripples which wander through the FR as your listening angles change.
These are difficult to EQ, being
moving targets as you move around.(why they are often ignored)
Bass having longer wavelengths, it is less subject to diffraction, and so EQ works well for bsc.
This is good, as boundary effects change quickly with small placement changes in smaller rooms,
so we can fiddle with angles & location for imaging, then balance the bass.