Raoul, are you in Corvallis?
We'll have to meet up sometime.
I was going to go down to Eugene to listen to the B & W's, but I didn't have time. I'll probably make a trip to Portland in the near future.
We'll have to meet up sometime.
I was going to go down to Eugene to listen to the B & W's, but I didn't have time. I'll probably make a trip to Portland in the near future.
Audiophilenoob said:
That's precisely my point: the cash involved just to put a pair of B&W speakers singin' properly.
Even the B&W 602S3 needs a very good amp, or my ears are too picky.
They go down to 2.8 ohms in the bass.
And this is an '8 ohm' speaker.
If you ask me, it's a bad design.
Audiophilenoob said:
I also heard the Halcros, with the 800Ds.
The source was a Linn CD12 (and this is also important).
The system sounded good to me, but as soon as the Halcros were changed by two (HUGE) top of the range Classé monoblocks, the sound fall apart. Bass was untight, detail vanished.
I have compared bothe Studio 100 and the Signature s8 side by side. I prefer v.2 with the 8" woofer.
Paradigm just figure out how to make people cough up more money with the signature series.
The tweeter and mid are identical, the woofers are actually 1" smaller (7" in the signature, but there are 4 of them compared to 2). Just snobs think more expensive is better.
Vandersteen
I understand about the time commitment to do DIY, and I don't think anyone blames you for your exit. I think I'll exit in a year to two as well.
Anyway, have your heard Vandersteen 2ce's? Research these if you want, they are AWESOME. I'll sell them to you for a reasonable price, and ship them to you for an eval. You are only out shipping to 92130 if you don't like. Email me offline if interested.
I understand about the time commitment to do DIY, and I don't think anyone blames you for your exit. I think I'll exit in a year to two as well.
Anyway, have your heard Vandersteen 2ce's? Research these if you want, they are AWESOME. I'll sell them to you for a reasonable price, and ship them to you for an eval. You are only out shipping to 92130 if you don't like. Email me offline if interested.
gengis said:
I also forgot to mention that part in my post. You know, the part where more $$$$ doesn't mean better sound and in most cases, worse sound.
To the point, I listened to a $4,000 pair of Mcintosh loudspeakers, they were black and about 20" in height. They were small and sounded great, no...they sounded DAMN GOOD! Wow, these commercial (said smugley as by a DIYer) speakers sounded...like my....like my own DIY OB speakers! Terrific!
Upon opening my mouth with words of amazement, the salesman quickly unhooked the 4G speakers and hooked up the 30G speakers with the words, "If you think those speakers sound good....listen to these..." Well, it's down hill from there. The so-called $30,000 speakers didn't sound great at all. They were boring and lacked dynamics. It wasn't even a diminishing point, more, a losing point that was reached.
Anyway, keep us updated and post some pics of the speakers that you decide to buy. I'm interested in what you come out of the store with.
I just spent the last hour putting together my for sale post with everything I've gathered over the last year or so. Really is a sad day. I'll definately keep an updated log.
So far the system is an HTPC and Rega CD to an Outlaw 950 Pre/Pro feeding Forte Amps.
So far the system is an HTPC and Rega CD to an Outlaw 950 Pre/Pro feeding Forte Amps.
Carlosfm,
I have the 603S3 that I run with my gainclone that has 37.5v rails and the gainclone powers them with no problem. These are actually quite efficient (93db). I don't like them as much as I did originally, before I got into the DIY scene, but I don't have many complaints about them. They were $400 and although I could build better speakers for the money I think they are good enough to defend them. I definately have not listened to as many speakers as you, nor have my ears been training for as long as yours have (I'm 17) but I've listened to the entire B&W line, the McIntosh line, the Difinitive Technologies line, Klipsch, and many others. I have only listened to one pair of Paradigms and they were the same price range as the 602S3s and I thought they were detailed and had better midrange, I preferred the sound and the bass of the B&Ws.
Josh
I have the 603S3 that I run with my gainclone that has 37.5v rails and the gainclone powers them with no problem. These are actually quite efficient (93db). I don't like them as much as I did originally, before I got into the DIY scene, but I don't have many complaints about them. They were $400 and although I could build better speakers for the money I think they are good enough to defend them. I definately have not listened to as many speakers as you, nor have my ears been training for as long as yours have (I'm 17) but I've listened to the entire B&W line, the McIntosh line, the Difinitive Technologies line, Klipsch, and many others. I have only listened to one pair of Paradigms and they were the same price range as the 602S3s and I thought they were detailed and had better midrange, I preferred the sound and the bass of the B&Ws.
Josh
being that i do this for a living (own an audio/video business), i need to toss in my 2 cents.
b&w is nice, i sold it for years. BUT, it is picky about power and equipment like many have said. and quite frankly, to get any magic ouf of the 600 series, you need some NICE stuff in front of it. it can be done, but the speaker really needs disgustingly expensive stuff to make them sing.
maggies are close to my heart, ive owned 3 pairs and am RIGHT NOW listening to my tympani 1D's. they are the best speaker ive owned, and one of the better ive heard. i suggest maggies, BUT, they are hard to place, harder to drive, and dont go low. i dont care what people say about their bass, yes, its good, but its VERY thin.
here is an original suggestion for you... did you know that bohlender graebener makes speakers too? they just came out with new lines and they are awesome. i have A/B'ed them with many of their close competitors and they are in a different league all together. their Z-7 tower speaker would fit your needs and is $1k per pair. great fit and finish and RIBBON tweeter!! they sound like a maggie, but with more bottom end and authority that a box speaker gives you. and they are LOUD. these suckers can do full HT levels without a problem.
i would seriously check them out. i goto trade shows all the time and ive heard every speaker mentioned in this thread, and about 1,000 others. none really float my boat. and quite frankly, i wouldnt be excited about buying any of them. but, the BG's i am buying for a bedroom system. they are just great little speakers. they also have great bookshelf speakers that when paired with their sub, or another sub would make a great system as well.
i am a dealer as well, so if you need more info, or need setup with a local dealer for demo or something, email me!
edit:
links!
http://www.bgcorp.com/productLine.php?id=4
(Z-7 - $1k/pr, Z-1 - $500/pr)
b&w is nice, i sold it for years. BUT, it is picky about power and equipment like many have said. and quite frankly, to get any magic ouf of the 600 series, you need some NICE stuff in front of it. it can be done, but the speaker really needs disgustingly expensive stuff to make them sing.
maggies are close to my heart, ive owned 3 pairs and am RIGHT NOW listening to my tympani 1D's. they are the best speaker ive owned, and one of the better ive heard. i suggest maggies, BUT, they are hard to place, harder to drive, and dont go low. i dont care what people say about their bass, yes, its good, but its VERY thin.
here is an original suggestion for you... did you know that bohlender graebener makes speakers too? they just came out with new lines and they are awesome. i have A/B'ed them with many of their close competitors and they are in a different league all together. their Z-7 tower speaker would fit your needs and is $1k per pair. great fit and finish and RIBBON tweeter!! they sound like a maggie, but with more bottom end and authority that a box speaker gives you. and they are LOUD. these suckers can do full HT levels without a problem.
i would seriously check them out. i goto trade shows all the time and ive heard every speaker mentioned in this thread, and about 1,000 others. none really float my boat. and quite frankly, i wouldnt be excited about buying any of them. but, the BG's i am buying for a bedroom system. they are just great little speakers. they also have great bookshelf speakers that when paired with their sub, or another sub would make a great system as well.
i am a dealer as well, so if you need more info, or need setup with a local dealer for demo or something, email me!
edit:
links!
http://www.bgcorp.com/productLine.php?id=4
(Z-7 - $1k/pr, Z-1 - $500/pr)
gengis said:
as have I... compared the 100, 110 and S8 in the same shop with the same songs on the same amps in the same rooms...
S8 was the clear winner... 110 was very close to it though... not worth the $4000 more for the S8
thank you for pointing out that speaker retailers always do these little ridiculous things like that "extra" bass from a larger woofer and that's IT!!!
HELLLLO wilson Sophia vs. the Wilson watt puppy 7
sound identical except for the bass section... and the same cabinet... but $12000 more 🙄
carlosfm said:
it was average to my ears... many things will whomp BW in it's price range.... at least this is my experience
the speaker being "picky" only means that in fact amps for most HT usage really are POORLY designed ...
2.8 ohms shouldn't be a problem driving well... realistically from an engineering standpoint anyway...
it's just all these huge Class A's require more transistors etc etc etc... bumps up production costs, heatsinks for really no improvement over a simple A/B amplifier (just my opinion)...
that halcro amps are pretty .... but sound no different than FAR cheaper amplifiers... including my LM4780 chip amp
Scottmoose said:
I know where there is a set of used Castles stashed -- don't know which ones. I expect they would be quite reasonable.
I was also going to suggest checking out someone like Alegria Audio (ie Tim Forman) -- a small company selling direct that is pretty much one big step above DIY.
dave
edjosh23 said:
Those B&Ws with a good 'gainclone' (specially with a good PSU) will probably sing fairly well, and better than MANY amps out there.
Don't underestimate the chipamp!
😀
PS: by 'fairly well' I don't mean perfect, most B&Ws are really current suckers.
Only the smallest (and cheapest) 600 and 601 work fine with most amps. And they are fairly decent speakers for the money.
Audiophilenoob said:
Of course we didn't hear the same system.
Audiophilenoob said:
That's right.
Audiophilenoob said:
Those 2.8 ohms are the 602S3
I was talking about those.
Now, can you imagine a cheap speaker that demands $$$$ from amplification to sing?
It makes no sense.
Audiophilenoob said:
Hey, I never compared them! 😀
carlosfm said:
I think this guy would like either the Gallo reference, ML speakers, or maggies...
if he has the power for the maggies that is
😀
OKay, so I thought I would chronicle my trip through the stereo store jungle, and a little of what I thought of each speaker. I do feel a teensy bit bad going to stereo stores and taking their time when it is most likely I'll buy used in the end. I use local shops for a huge amount of random supplies and such though, and if something really strikes my fancy I'll defiantely buy from a retail shop.
For reference I use the IASCA car stereo demo disk as a first listening impression. I find the dynamics and transients to be excellent on the disk, even if the detail in the music isn't the end all. Usually I use Damian Rice "O" for vocals and Guitar. Great recording and I know exactly what the image should look like. Cold Play "Rush..." is one of the absolute most horific CD's I've ever heard from a recording standpoint. Mediocre speakers will cover the sound up, and make it okay. Good speakers that will resolve detail show it for what it is, a steaming pile of poo.
Today's mark: Paradigm Studio 60's (they didn't have 100's)
NAD electronics
Nice looking speakers, but not art. They definately do not look high end, and I would expect to see them somewhere like circuit city. We all hate to admit it, but speakers are furtniture too, and need to look good.
The sound was good, but just good. Detail was okay, but everything had a bit of a muffled tone too it. Bass was well defined, but held the note too long, and bloomed too much. Treble was excellent, but did not have the extended shimmer of something with a ribbon tweet. Midrange was quite fluid and the best part of the speaker. Voices resolved nicely and were silky smooth.
The image the speakers projected was accurate within the confines of the speaker. All of the sound came from between the 2 speakers, and from a point just above the tweeter. No recordings seemed to budge from this sonic picture. Hard tracks caused the field to collapse and the sound to move back to the speakers.
Dynamics were very good, but fast transients lacked punch. Knowing a lot of guys in drum corps, and being a long time brass player, I need something with good attack. I never once felt a kick drum, or felt that the attack of a trumpet was hit right on these speakers.
Overall a so so impression of the speakers, but also the first of many that I will seriously review.
Others to come on the list:
B&W from top to bottom (notably the DM640's and other S3 600 series)
Triangle Zerius
Vandersteen
B&G
Used Martin Logans
Maggies if I can find a dealer.
For reference I use the IASCA car stereo demo disk as a first listening impression. I find the dynamics and transients to be excellent on the disk, even if the detail in the music isn't the end all. Usually I use Damian Rice "O" for vocals and Guitar. Great recording and I know exactly what the image should look like. Cold Play "Rush..." is one of the absolute most horific CD's I've ever heard from a recording standpoint. Mediocre speakers will cover the sound up, and make it okay. Good speakers that will resolve detail show it for what it is, a steaming pile of poo.
Today's mark: Paradigm Studio 60's (they didn't have 100's)
NAD electronics
Nice looking speakers, but not art. They definately do not look high end, and I would expect to see them somewhere like circuit city. We all hate to admit it, but speakers are furtniture too, and need to look good.
The sound was good, but just good. Detail was okay, but everything had a bit of a muffled tone too it. Bass was well defined, but held the note too long, and bloomed too much. Treble was excellent, but did not have the extended shimmer of something with a ribbon tweet. Midrange was quite fluid and the best part of the speaker. Voices resolved nicely and were silky smooth.
The image the speakers projected was accurate within the confines of the speaker. All of the sound came from between the 2 speakers, and from a point just above the tweeter. No recordings seemed to budge from this sonic picture. Hard tracks caused the field to collapse and the sound to move back to the speakers.
Dynamics were very good, but fast transients lacked punch. Knowing a lot of guys in drum corps, and being a long time brass player, I need something with good attack. I never once felt a kick drum, or felt that the attack of a trumpet was hit right on these speakers.
Overall a so so impression of the speakers, but also the first of many that I will seriously review.
Others to come on the list:
B&W from top to bottom (notably the DM640's and other S3 600 series)
Triangle Zerius
Vandersteen
B&G
Used Martin Logans
Maggies if I can find a dealer.
dunderchief said:
Absolutely right.
Good speakers will reveal that Colplay make good music and horrendous recordings.
Recommended for heavy EQ fans. 😀
dunderchief said:
dunderchief, you may give a listen to Energy's Veritas range of speakers.
I've heard the 2.2i and the 2.3i, and they are quite good, if feeded with a good amp and source.
I don't like the flashy looks of Energy speakers, but the Veritas range are a little more 'classical' looking.
Well, anyway, these are the only decent speakers from Energy that I've heard.
http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/products/product-line.php?id=2
Dare I suggest a speaker internet direct?
Take a look at AV123.com
I've been diy'ing it for years with a little success but could never muster up the beautiful cabinets that me and my wife desired, so I bought RS750 Signatures. I've been very happy with mine. Quality drivers, cabinets and sound that you don't typically find at their price points and you get a 30 day money back guarantee.
Of course the diy'er in me just had to open them up and replace the capacitors with film and foil!😀
Take a look at AV123.com
I've been diy'ing it for years with a little success but could never muster up the beautiful cabinets that me and my wife desired, so I bought RS750 Signatures. I've been very happy with mine. Quality drivers, cabinets and sound that you don't typically find at their price points and you get a 30 day money back guarantee.
Of course the diy'er in me just had to open them up and replace the capacitors with film and foil!😀
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