Circlotron said:
It gets even messier if your ears don't match each other. Mine don't.
Neither do mine! But I don't think it matters much for these comparisons we are discussing here, as I use both at once!!!
Before now, when I am struggling to make up my mind over some sonic changes, many times I have cupped my hands behind my ears for a while. It is not good for judging the overall quality of sound (because of the obvious colourations introduced by this), but you sure do hear a lot more details in the sound, so it can be helpful.
As a youngster, I spent far too many hours with a flexible shaft grinder (the motor was hung on a stand close to my right ear) when I was modifying racing engines, and although the sound level was not inordinate, it appears that the continuous length of time of frequently 14/15 hrs a day has had some effect on that ear.
If only we knew then what we do now!!!!!!!!!
Regards,
Hey,
I wish Frank hadn't lowered the tone of this thread by talking about Wikis.
My mother told me when I was 14, that I had better stop playing with mine or I would go blind!
I just went over to doing it a little bit, and wore glasses.
Regards,
I wish Frank hadn't lowered the tone of this thread by talking about Wikis.
My mother told me when I was 14, that I had better stop playing with mine or I would go blind!
I just went over to doing it a little bit, and wore glasses.
Regards,
IT WAS ME AGAIN?
Hi,
Don't think that was the idea....
Now that deserves a Wiki all of its' own.
Or maybe Bob could write a *manual* for us?😀
Cheers,😉
Hi,
Don't think that was the idea....
Now that deserves a Wiki all of its' own.
Or maybe Bob could write a *manual* for us?😀
Cheers,😉
Re: IT WAS ME AGAIN?
Handy choice of words!
Anyway,
"Grasp the tool firmly in your right hand (unless you are left handed, or you fancy a change)..............."
Anything to help Frank, as always!!
Regards,
fdegrove said:
Handy choice of words!
Anyway,
"Grasp the tool firmly in your right hand (unless you are left handed, or you fancy a change)..............."
Anything to help Frank, as always!!
Regards,
What's In A Name..
Where I come from, a 'wiki' is a pubic hair. 😀
Maybe we need a different name. 😕
Eric.
Where I come from, a 'wiki' is a pubic hair. 😀
Maybe we need a different name. 😕
Eric.
Re: Sound Of Solder Alloys - Part 2
Hi Eric,
It seems that I have been (mainly and unwittingly) 'trying to teach my grandmother to suck eggs' with you, for which I apologise.
Being quite new to the Forum, I still haven't fully grasped who believes in, or has done, what etc., but I will catch up!
It seems hard to get the balance correct for *everyone* anyway, and whatever I say, it appears that someone will either distort it or disagree with it based on having no practical experience of the issue themselves. But that is life, as they say.
I reckon if they realised just how long it takes me to type these things out, people might just be a little less argumentative, unless they have discovered for themselves that something I have said is quite wrong. This is most unlikely, since I will only (usually) pass on what I have found out for sure from my own experiments, and as I am so carefull with these, my results should be very little different from anyone else's who has done the same.
If I ever theorise or guess at anything or quote someone else, I will always say so, as this is the only sensible thing to do.
I am beginning to realise who is out simply to argue the toss, rather than try these different components out 'fairly' in real stuations, and I won't bother to dignify their comments by responding in the future.
However, that concerns me a little as there may be many people who still might be mislead but what has been incorrectly said or implied, and who might be put off from trying for themselves some components which we know to improve the sound of our audio gear.
Anyway, back to your commments following my earlier post, I also have a reel of LMP, which like you, I wasn't too enchanted with sonically, but for the time being I am unlikely to purchase any more solder (except the Cardas stuff, which I have heard is very good) as I have so much of the stuff lying around now!
If I lived to 150 years old, I wouldn't be able to use it all as I generally get the fancy stuff from abroad, and simply buying a foot or two is not very realistic, especially with carriage and minimum order charges.
You are quite right about the costs of the special solders, but as I have no commercial uses and nowadays tend to build on the basis of "quality rather than quantity", with my relatively few constructional projects I use so little solder that the difference is only a few pennies, which compared with say MITs and BGs etc, is not worth taking into account.
In this connection (sic) I will also use the minimum amount of solder for each joint, I can get away with (without 'starving' the joint, of course), bearing in mind than none of the joints will be improved by gobbing them up.
Since you have asked about it 'proper' silver solder doesn't have much real use in our line, I feel, except maybe for constucting mechanical parts like enclosures or screening cans or whatever.
I only referred to it to indicate that it is (mostly) inaccurate for people to use the term silver soldering (which I continually see written) and I always need to think about the application, myself, before deciding whether it really is silver soldering which is intended in a particular context.
Silver soldering is an (almost) entirely different process, and is really closer to brazing, than the 'soft soldering' we use in electronics.
The necessary temperatures are closer to 1000 degrees (the parent metal and solder vary from being very dull to bright cherry red in colour whilst soldering, probably say 900 to 1300 degrees from memory- I'm sorry but I can't be bothered to look it up to be certain) and the fluxes used are based on borax or something similar, and are a pig to get rid of afterwards.
They form a glass-hard skin which can only be chipped off, or it will also dissolve (slowly) in the usually-used near to boiling sulphuric acid, which is also necessary because (at those elevated temperatures) the metal itself will have oxidised badly during the soldering process.
In this connection, only pure gold (24 Carat) doesn't show any surface tarnishing when heated to these levels, and the blackening due to the oxides etc. has to be removed by this 'pickling' (as it is known) before any further work is done.
Silver soldering has its uses, though, and comparing the tensile and shear strengths of soft soldered joints with silver soldered ones, is like chalk and cheese. With silver soldered joints in say silver, nickel, copper, brass, or gilding metal, the joint is as good and strong as (if not better than) the parent metal, but it is not anywhere near the same with soft soldered joints.
Some of the later higher tech 'eutectic' soft solders are very tough though, it has to be said, and it always seems to me to be another of those puzzles in life that you can add together two metals both of high melting points, and the melting point of the resulting alloy is much lower than both of the original materials used!
[Just let the sceptics argue about that one! I know that (like so many things I have personally discovered and have written about on the Forum) that this is not intuitive, but the metallurgists amongst us will confirm this to be true.]
Depending on the melting points required, and these are numbered (at least from 0 to 8, from memory, but could be more), to make silver solder, other metals are added to pure silver, but only in relatively small proportions.
In this country, at least, if you have more than a certain percentage of 'base' metal (and it is very small) in any silver article made here, the Assay Office will not stamp the goods as being true silver. Accordingly, very small percentages are generally used of copper, zinc, nickel, and tin etc. (I believe, but it was 40 yrs. ago when I studied this closely!), with a preference lying with the 'whiter' metals to preserve the silver's overall colour, are alloyed with sterling silver to make the various grades of solder.
Finally, as far as Peter Belt is concerned, I used to read a lot about his ideas, and I am surprised Frank hasn't yet joined in on this as I would have thought Peter was well-known to some of Frank's contemporaries like Jimmy Hughes who he has mentioned. Even though I consider myself to have been quite adventurous in my past pursuits of wonderful-sounding audio gear, Peter's ideas are a bit way out for me, I'm afraid!
I shouldn't knock what he says, though, since I haven't tried them for myself, and accordingly I don't have any opinions of my own on the matter.
I don't wish to influence any other 'hopefuls' from trying any of these ideas, as they should find out for themselves, but I am not going to give them any priority, myself, in view of what some other 'enthusiasts' have told me.
They think that you stand about as much chance of influencing any sonic changes by the act of simply writing notes on any bags or containers (whatever 'treatment' the parts are undergoing) as you have of getting what you wan't from Father Christmas by sending him notes up the chimney! (With aplogies to any very young readers!)
Regards,
mrfeedback said:
Hi Eric,
It seems that I have been (mainly and unwittingly) 'trying to teach my grandmother to suck eggs' with you, for which I apologise.
Being quite new to the Forum, I still haven't fully grasped who believes in, or has done, what etc., but I will catch up!
It seems hard to get the balance correct for *everyone* anyway, and whatever I say, it appears that someone will either distort it or disagree with it based on having no practical experience of the issue themselves. But that is life, as they say.
I reckon if they realised just how long it takes me to type these things out, people might just be a little less argumentative, unless they have discovered for themselves that something I have said is quite wrong. This is most unlikely, since I will only (usually) pass on what I have found out for sure from my own experiments, and as I am so carefull with these, my results should be very little different from anyone else's who has done the same.
If I ever theorise or guess at anything or quote someone else, I will always say so, as this is the only sensible thing to do.
I am beginning to realise who is out simply to argue the toss, rather than try these different components out 'fairly' in real stuations, and I won't bother to dignify their comments by responding in the future.
However, that concerns me a little as there may be many people who still might be mislead but what has been incorrectly said or implied, and who might be put off from trying for themselves some components which we know to improve the sound of our audio gear.
Anyway, back to your commments following my earlier post, I also have a reel of LMP, which like you, I wasn't too enchanted with sonically, but for the time being I am unlikely to purchase any more solder (except the Cardas stuff, which I have heard is very good) as I have so much of the stuff lying around now!
If I lived to 150 years old, I wouldn't be able to use it all as I generally get the fancy stuff from abroad, and simply buying a foot or two is not very realistic, especially with carriage and minimum order charges.
You are quite right about the costs of the special solders, but as I have no commercial uses and nowadays tend to build on the basis of "quality rather than quantity", with my relatively few constructional projects I use so little solder that the difference is only a few pennies, which compared with say MITs and BGs etc, is not worth taking into account.
In this connection (sic) I will also use the minimum amount of solder for each joint, I can get away with (without 'starving' the joint, of course), bearing in mind than none of the joints will be improved by gobbing them up.
Since you have asked about it 'proper' silver solder doesn't have much real use in our line, I feel, except maybe for constucting mechanical parts like enclosures or screening cans or whatever.
I only referred to it to indicate that it is (mostly) inaccurate for people to use the term silver soldering (which I continually see written) and I always need to think about the application, myself, before deciding whether it really is silver soldering which is intended in a particular context.
Silver soldering is an (almost) entirely different process, and is really closer to brazing, than the 'soft soldering' we use in electronics.
The necessary temperatures are closer to 1000 degrees (the parent metal and solder vary from being very dull to bright cherry red in colour whilst soldering, probably say 900 to 1300 degrees from memory- I'm sorry but I can't be bothered to look it up to be certain) and the fluxes used are based on borax or something similar, and are a pig to get rid of afterwards.
They form a glass-hard skin which can only be chipped off, or it will also dissolve (slowly) in the usually-used near to boiling sulphuric acid, which is also necessary because (at those elevated temperatures) the metal itself will have oxidised badly during the soldering process.
In this connection, only pure gold (24 Carat) doesn't show any surface tarnishing when heated to these levels, and the blackening due to the oxides etc. has to be removed by this 'pickling' (as it is known) before any further work is done.
Silver soldering has its uses, though, and comparing the tensile and shear strengths of soft soldered joints with silver soldered ones, is like chalk and cheese. With silver soldered joints in say silver, nickel, copper, brass, or gilding metal, the joint is as good and strong as (if not better than) the parent metal, but it is not anywhere near the same with soft soldered joints.
Some of the later higher tech 'eutectic' soft solders are very tough though, it has to be said, and it always seems to me to be another of those puzzles in life that you can add together two metals both of high melting points, and the melting point of the resulting alloy is much lower than both of the original materials used!
[Just let the sceptics argue about that one! I know that (like so many things I have personally discovered and have written about on the Forum) that this is not intuitive, but the metallurgists amongst us will confirm this to be true.]
Depending on the melting points required, and these are numbered (at least from 0 to 8, from memory, but could be more), to make silver solder, other metals are added to pure silver, but only in relatively small proportions.
In this country, at least, if you have more than a certain percentage of 'base' metal (and it is very small) in any silver article made here, the Assay Office will not stamp the goods as being true silver. Accordingly, very small percentages are generally used of copper, zinc, nickel, and tin etc. (I believe, but it was 40 yrs. ago when I studied this closely!), with a preference lying with the 'whiter' metals to preserve the silver's overall colour, are alloyed with sterling silver to make the various grades of solder.
Finally, as far as Peter Belt is concerned, I used to read a lot about his ideas, and I am surprised Frank hasn't yet joined in on this as I would have thought Peter was well-known to some of Frank's contemporaries like Jimmy Hughes who he has mentioned. Even though I consider myself to have been quite adventurous in my past pursuits of wonderful-sounding audio gear, Peter's ideas are a bit way out for me, I'm afraid!
I shouldn't knock what he says, though, since I haven't tried them for myself, and accordingly I don't have any opinions of my own on the matter.
I don't wish to influence any other 'hopefuls' from trying any of these ideas, as they should find out for themselves, but I am not going to give them any priority, myself, in view of what some other 'enthusiasts' have told me.
They think that you stand about as much chance of influencing any sonic changes by the act of simply writing notes on any bags or containers (whatever 'treatment' the parts are undergoing) as you have of getting what you wan't from Father Christmas by sending him notes up the chimney! (With aplogies to any very young readers!)
Regards,
P.B.
Hi,
Heck,sure I'm aware of PB...I recall some polarized foils you had to cut and stick to various parts like speaker cones,amp and preamp chassis.
Those things made sense and the ones that came free with an audio mag I tried out .
I can't say I heard any improvement but then I do pay attention to mains polarity,minumum leakage currents and such.
Some of his claims are of course so far out that you start wondering what on earth he's on about.
He's not the only one out there and looking at the Bybee stuff for instance you'll need to start thinking in quantum physics terms to get an idiea of how this can possibly work.
Thing is...life is too short to try everything on the planet.
I usually try to get some feedback from others before I take the plunge,especially when serious $ are involved.
There is always going to be Moore's law and it surely proves itself when it comes to high-end audio.
Bob,
Regarding this boutique solder ,I'm having a hard time believing they can have it custom made for them and quite often I find the same product in the industrial catalogues at 1/3 the asking price.
Very few have the purchasing power to have something made exclusively.
Cheers, 😉
Hi,
Heck,sure I'm aware of PB...I recall some polarized foils you had to cut and stick to various parts like speaker cones,amp and preamp chassis.
Those things made sense and the ones that came free with an audio mag I tried out .
I can't say I heard any improvement but then I do pay attention to mains polarity,minumum leakage currents and such.
Some of his claims are of course so far out that you start wondering what on earth he's on about.
He's not the only one out there and looking at the Bybee stuff for instance you'll need to start thinking in quantum physics terms to get an idiea of how this can possibly work.
Thing is...life is too short to try everything on the planet.
I usually try to get some feedback from others before I take the plunge,especially when serious $ are involved.
There is always going to be Moore's law and it surely proves itself when it comes to high-end audio.
Bob,
Regarding this boutique solder ,I'm having a hard time believing they can have it custom made for them and quite often I find the same product in the industrial catalogues at 1/3 the asking price.
Very few have the purchasing power to have something made exclusively.
Cheers, 😉
Re: P.B.
Hi Frank,
Phew! When I tried yesterday I thought one of my new 'fans' had 'shopped' me for being smutty, and that I had been banned!
I don't go along with what you say here, if you are comparing like with like, which is what you suggest by saying "the same product".
I just looked it up to see if the position had changed since I last bought any solder (6yrs ago) and this is what I found.
Farnell's Industrial catalogue lists 17 solders, but only two which are truly comparable and contain the desirable small percentage of silver to prevent leaching which can give rise to unsound joints on plated surfaces, especially after the passage of time.
LMP, which Eric hates (and I know is not as good as Wondersolder & WBT etc) works out at about £30/pound (weight)
The sonically more desirable (in my opinion, as I have tried this also) Smart Wire is £55/pound! (These prices have been converted from grams and include VAT which is necessary, as I have to pay that.)
Looking at Michael Percy's recent catalogue shows both Wondersolder & Cardas @ US $39/pound which equates to about £32/pound including VAT.
So where does this 1/3 situation come into it, or do you know *someone* or something I don't know?
On the subject of having the purchasing power to make specials etc, if you ask me (nicely!) I can bore you with some more "Hi-Fi Answers" type anecdotes which are very relevant here, and tell you how and why I got into boutique solders as well!
Regards, 🙂
fdegrove said:
Hi Frank,
Phew! When I tried yesterday I thought one of my new 'fans' had 'shopped' me for being smutty, and that I had been banned!
I don't go along with what you say here, if you are comparing like with like, which is what you suggest by saying "the same product".
I just looked it up to see if the position had changed since I last bought any solder (6yrs ago) and this is what I found.
Farnell's Industrial catalogue lists 17 solders, but only two which are truly comparable and contain the desirable small percentage of silver to prevent leaching which can give rise to unsound joints on plated surfaces, especially after the passage of time.
LMP, which Eric hates (and I know is not as good as Wondersolder & WBT etc) works out at about £30/pound (weight)
The sonically more desirable (in my opinion, as I have tried this also) Smart Wire is £55/pound! (These prices have been converted from grams and include VAT which is necessary, as I have to pay that.)
Looking at Michael Percy's recent catalogue shows both Wondersolder & Cardas @ US $39/pound which equates to about £32/pound including VAT.
So where does this 1/3 situation come into it, or do you know *someone* or something I don't know?
On the subject of having the purchasing power to make specials etc, if you ask me (nicely!) I can bore you with some more "Hi-Fi Answers" type anecdotes which are very relevant here, and tell you how and why I got into boutique solders as well!
Regards, 🙂
SOLDER PRICES
Hi Bob,
My mistake...I suppose you're looking at things (prices) from an endusers' point.
In which case the boutiques stuff may only be slightly more expensive then what retailers such as RS and Farnell charge.
No need to unravel the mark-up systems applied so I'd better zip it.
If you're in this kind of business and want something custom made,the only place I know of would be ROC (Taiwan)as this country is supplying most of the electronic components for the passed 15 years.
Anyway,Eric and others have discussed the sound of alloys and I think we came to the conclusion that it did have a definite impact on the net endresult.
In fact quite markedly so.
I don't mind being informed.😎
Horses for courses,😉
Hi Bob,
My mistake...I suppose you're looking at things (prices) from an endusers' point.
In which case the boutiques stuff may only be slightly more expensive then what retailers such as RS and Farnell charge.
No need to unravel the mark-up systems applied so I'd better zip it.
If you're in this kind of business and want something custom made,the only place I know of would be ROC (Taiwan)as this country is supplying most of the electronic components for the passed 15 years.
Anyway,Eric and others have discussed the sound of alloys and I think we came to the conclusion that it did have a definite impact on the net endresult.
In fact quite markedly so.
I don't mind being informed.😎
Horses for courses,😉
I'll Be Back
Hi guys, sorry I've been too busy to come back and provide sensible input here - later tonight maybe.
Anyway good discussions so far. 🙂
Eric.
Hi guys, sorry I've been too busy to come back and provide sensible input here - later tonight maybe.
Anyway good discussions so far. 🙂
Eric.
Hi Frank,
"Once upon a time"
Many years ago, I rewrote an application note for Toshiba on some of their transistors, because the one which was in circulation was nonsense, and the 'scope pictures were backwards, so you can guess how informative that was!
Having become pally with some of the tech guys there, not only did they source me a large number of 'new' (and unavailable in the UK then) semis, FOC, which were like gold to me, but they also squared me up over the likelihood, or rather the opposite, of anyone having special semi-conductors made up. It was quite clear, that unless one was prepared to order almost millions of these things, the development and tooling-up costs would be prohibitive.
I had been interested for two reasons. One was that there was a supplier of fancy components in the UK then, who was selling what he claimed to be 'specially made' Mosfets, which I had my doubts about, and I was also curious about the numbers on some of the Naim Audio output transistors, which did not appear in any makers lists.
Incidentally, I had known Julian Vereker from long before his audio days, when, as youngsters, we were both into tweaking up BMC 'A' series engines for racing and rally cars, and I knew that he was a wily businessman!
Anyway, it turned out that good old Julian was merely re-badging some quite ordinary bipolars with his (then) car registration number!
So I know what you you are on about here, but I am not so certain where solders are concerned, and I don't think they are made with such care as you would be used to with cables in a 'clean room', with diamond dies and subsequent cryo baths and immediate lacquering to avoid oxidation, etc.
No offence to Multicore or Frys (or whoever) who will doubtless tell us if I am wrong, but I would see it more like a case of the operator just chucking in another lump of tin, or zinc, or a bit of bismuth into the 'melt', if any changes were required. More importantly, the formulation of the flux, which I now believe is just as important as the metal alloy used in the solder, could also be varied quite easily, since, currently, as we all know, you have a choice of many different fluxes in normal production solder.
At one time (before he sold through dealers) J.Peter Moncreiff used to sell his products through direct mail order, and I bought a lot of his Wondercaps and wire, which weren't bad in their time. With one order, he sent me a free length of the his new TRT Wondersolder, which I tried on one of the boards I was working on, and I found it better than say LMP (also Eric's hate!) which I had been using.
Accordingly, with my next order for caps, I had a pound of his solder, type 'A', and then later on some of the subsequent type 'B', and about six years ago, some of the latest Ultraclear, each of which was a slight improvement on its predecessor, I considered.
Interestingly to me, was the fact that although the later types seemed to 'sound' better, the original type 'A' was much easier and quicker to use on the bench than its successors.
Whatever anyone may think, these were definitely different from one another, and I still have a little of each of the earlier types left, as I always ordered up well before I was due to run out.
Also, in some subsequent and rather crude tests, I know that the flux formulation was different, from squeezing some of each onto several different metals, and leaving it for a while, and heating it up etc., to see what effect it had.
I further discovered that the thinner gauge solder (there were two thicknesses available, but mostly the thinner was easier to use) did not 'sound' so good as the thicker stuff, a fact which was apparently known to, and admitted by JPM, although it was strongly maintained that the alloy used in the solder was identical! (Identical, for each type or incarnation, that is)
Out of curiosity, I cut some of these solders up (and about ten others I had to hand) and studied their cross-sections under powerful magnification. Unlike all the Multicore types I looked at, both of the Wondersolders were made as a simple tube with a single flux core, but presumably to maintain some handling strength on the bench, the 'walls' of the thinner solder were not reduced by the same proportion as the reduction in overall diameter.
The consequence of this is that the thicker solder has considerably more flux per unit length (and therefore for each like-sized joint), than the thinner stuff, and as this is the only difference between them, I must conclude that this is what gives rise to the marginally better sound.
When I contacted Peter to ask whether this was the case, he declined to respond to this direct question!
Whilst in the jewellery trade, I studied a lot of micro-photographs of soldered joints which had been 'sectioned' and from this you can clearly see that at every meeting of the solder's outer edge and the component, there is an area which is yet another more complex alloy which is made up of the solder's constituents and the substrate 'dissolved' together, and this can vary in depth and mix, depending upon the flux used and the temperature used to make the joint. It looks like a badly-mixed fruit cake when you take a slice out of it!
You have said yourself in connection with your cables about crystalline structures changing with annealing (which I have also seen on such photographs), and the crystalline structures which are formed during soldering are very interesting, especially in the amount of variation one can see here.
So I fervently believe that when one has *many* joints in an amp, these 'interfaces' (which can, and do vary) will have some effect on the sound, in much the same way as say brass (being an alloy of mainly copper) sounds worse and more hard and gritty, than say purer copper, as can be seen (or rather heard!) with different connectors.
Solder does not simply glue bits together (except in a dry joint, perhaps), but the solder alloy dissolves the parent metal and mixes with it in random ways in accordance with temperature, the alloy used, and the flux etc., and this is one of the 'secrets' surrounding the 'sound' of solder, I believe, which quite a few people can hear.
My 'jewellery-training days' were some 40 years ago, but I recall well a lot of what I learned, although I now wish I had kept some of the reference books I had when I was into metallurgy as they would be quite useful nowadays!
Hope this hasn't been boring.
Regards,
P.S. Do you or Eric recall the thread title about "alloys" which you refer to, as I would quite like to see how any conclusions compare with my own experiences? 🙂
"Once upon a time"
Many years ago, I rewrote an application note for Toshiba on some of their transistors, because the one which was in circulation was nonsense, and the 'scope pictures were backwards, so you can guess how informative that was!
Having become pally with some of the tech guys there, not only did they source me a large number of 'new' (and unavailable in the UK then) semis, FOC, which were like gold to me, but they also squared me up over the likelihood, or rather the opposite, of anyone having special semi-conductors made up. It was quite clear, that unless one was prepared to order almost millions of these things, the development and tooling-up costs would be prohibitive.
I had been interested for two reasons. One was that there was a supplier of fancy components in the UK then, who was selling what he claimed to be 'specially made' Mosfets, which I had my doubts about, and I was also curious about the numbers on some of the Naim Audio output transistors, which did not appear in any makers lists.
Incidentally, I had known Julian Vereker from long before his audio days, when, as youngsters, we were both into tweaking up BMC 'A' series engines for racing and rally cars, and I knew that he was a wily businessman!
Anyway, it turned out that good old Julian was merely re-badging some quite ordinary bipolars with his (then) car registration number!
So I know what you you are on about here, but I am not so certain where solders are concerned, and I don't think they are made with such care as you would be used to with cables in a 'clean room', with diamond dies and subsequent cryo baths and immediate lacquering to avoid oxidation, etc.
No offence to Multicore or Frys (or whoever) who will doubtless tell us if I am wrong, but I would see it more like a case of the operator just chucking in another lump of tin, or zinc, or a bit of bismuth into the 'melt', if any changes were required. More importantly, the formulation of the flux, which I now believe is just as important as the metal alloy used in the solder, could also be varied quite easily, since, currently, as we all know, you have a choice of many different fluxes in normal production solder.
At one time (before he sold through dealers) J.Peter Moncreiff used to sell his products through direct mail order, and I bought a lot of his Wondercaps and wire, which weren't bad in their time. With one order, he sent me a free length of the his new TRT Wondersolder, which I tried on one of the boards I was working on, and I found it better than say LMP (also Eric's hate!) which I had been using.
Accordingly, with my next order for caps, I had a pound of his solder, type 'A', and then later on some of the subsequent type 'B', and about six years ago, some of the latest Ultraclear, each of which was a slight improvement on its predecessor, I considered.
Interestingly to me, was the fact that although the later types seemed to 'sound' better, the original type 'A' was much easier and quicker to use on the bench than its successors.
Whatever anyone may think, these were definitely different from one another, and I still have a little of each of the earlier types left, as I always ordered up well before I was due to run out.
Also, in some subsequent and rather crude tests, I know that the flux formulation was different, from squeezing some of each onto several different metals, and leaving it for a while, and heating it up etc., to see what effect it had.
I further discovered that the thinner gauge solder (there were two thicknesses available, but mostly the thinner was easier to use) did not 'sound' so good as the thicker stuff, a fact which was apparently known to, and admitted by JPM, although it was strongly maintained that the alloy used in the solder was identical! (Identical, for each type or incarnation, that is)
Out of curiosity, I cut some of these solders up (and about ten others I had to hand) and studied their cross-sections under powerful magnification. Unlike all the Multicore types I looked at, both of the Wondersolders were made as a simple tube with a single flux core, but presumably to maintain some handling strength on the bench, the 'walls' of the thinner solder were not reduced by the same proportion as the reduction in overall diameter.
The consequence of this is that the thicker solder has considerably more flux per unit length (and therefore for each like-sized joint), than the thinner stuff, and as this is the only difference between them, I must conclude that this is what gives rise to the marginally better sound.
When I contacted Peter to ask whether this was the case, he declined to respond to this direct question!
Whilst in the jewellery trade, I studied a lot of micro-photographs of soldered joints which had been 'sectioned' and from this you can clearly see that at every meeting of the solder's outer edge and the component, there is an area which is yet another more complex alloy which is made up of the solder's constituents and the substrate 'dissolved' together, and this can vary in depth and mix, depending upon the flux used and the temperature used to make the joint. It looks like a badly-mixed fruit cake when you take a slice out of it!
You have said yourself in connection with your cables about crystalline structures changing with annealing (which I have also seen on such photographs), and the crystalline structures which are formed during soldering are very interesting, especially in the amount of variation one can see here.
So I fervently believe that when one has *many* joints in an amp, these 'interfaces' (which can, and do vary) will have some effect on the sound, in much the same way as say brass (being an alloy of mainly copper) sounds worse and more hard and gritty, than say purer copper, as can be seen (or rather heard!) with different connectors.
Solder does not simply glue bits together (except in a dry joint, perhaps), but the solder alloy dissolves the parent metal and mixes with it in random ways in accordance with temperature, the alloy used, and the flux etc., and this is one of the 'secrets' surrounding the 'sound' of solder, I believe, which quite a few people can hear.
My 'jewellery-training days' were some 40 years ago, but I recall well a lot of what I learned, although I now wish I had kept some of the reference books I had when I was into metallurgy as they would be quite useful nowadays!
Hope this hasn't been boring.
Regards,
P.S. Do you or Eric recall the thread title about "alloys" which you refer to, as I would quite like to see how any conclusions compare with my own experiences? 🙂
AXON TINFOIL CAPS??
Hi Bob,
Just kidding of course:
Here's the dreaded thread:😀
SOUND OF SOLDER
And one that is related:
THERMAL NOISE STUDY
No way.😎
Cheers,😉
Hi Bob,
Just kidding of course:
Here's the dreaded thread:😀
SOUND OF SOLDER
And one that is related:
THERMAL NOISE STUDY
No way.😎
Cheers,😉
Re: AXON TINFOIL CAPS??
Hi Frank,
Thanks for the links which I will look up in due course.
As for the heading (which wasn't mine, anyway) Let me know if I ever get anything right, won't you !!!😡 (Also, only kidding!)
Perhaps you can help a newcomer about this anyway, as, since yesterday when I thought I'd been banned forever, I am concerned (as I mentioned in my very first post) to comply with any local etiquette.
In a situation like this, where only the three of us seem to be involved, what should one do if the theme gets off topic? Is Eric trying to get me into trouble again, here?
Regards,🙂
fdegrove said:
Hi Frank,
Thanks for the links which I will look up in due course.
As for the heading (which wasn't mine, anyway) Let me know if I ever get anything right, won't you !!!😡 (Also, only kidding!)
Perhaps you can help a newcomer about this anyway, as, since yesterday when I thought I'd been banned forever, I am concerned (as I mentioned in my very first post) to comply with any local etiquette.
In a situation like this, where only the three of us seem to be involved, what should one do if the theme gets off topic? Is Eric trying to get me into trouble again, here?
Regards,🙂
NO WORRIES
Hi Bob,
Actually,that's up to Eric to decide and I don't think he's complaining,is he?
It's one of his fav topics,remember the remark I made to him before about being naughty?
Going off topic a bit can be interesting and as long as the thread starter is respected in the process...😉
We're not going to make a habit out of this,right?😀
Cheers,😎
Hi Bob,
Actually,that's up to Eric to decide and I don't think he's complaining,is he?
It's one of his fav topics,remember the remark I made to him before about being naughty?
Going off topic a bit can be interesting and as long as the thread starter is respected in the process...😉
We're not going to make a habit out of this,right?😀
Cheers,😎
Hi Frank
Looks like Eric is far too busy sleeping his life away to care!
O.K., so the crux (crutch!) is, its up to the thread-starter, then, really, so I'll blame Eric.
I'll say anything to avoid being banned, like I thought I had, yesterday. 🙁
I have just waded through all of the " Sound of Solder" thread, and I'm glad I wasn't around then!
Some people just want to spend their days arguing, almost irrespective of what it is about, it seems.
Actually, neither I, nor they can *prove* that its Friday today, can we, so I suppose then it cannot be.
Anyway, nothing I have read there has done anything to vary my views, except, perhaps, to reinforce some of them. I was especially interested in the comments on the various incarnations of Wondersolder which mirror what I have just said to you, but it seems no-one has yet twigged about the different gauges sounding different, nor about my hypothesis over the flux.
I don't mean to seem arrogant, but I still believe my thoughts over this not very well-controlled interface of a 'new' alloy which is formed (actually twice at each joint. i.e. where the solder kisses the lead and also where it kisses the copper track, which amounts to *four* places for every two leaded component) has a lot to do with the phenomenon.
Maybe one day we will all know, but in the meantime I will use up my reels of Wondersolder, WBT, A/S silver solder etc., and probably get hold of some Cardas for comparison, when I next order up from the 'States.
Finally, I have heard from somewhere that Wondersolder is the same as some of the stuff from Radio Shack, but that, in my opinion is just sour grapes. I would be very interested to get a piece of this and cut it up, if necessary, and look closely at it and its flux. I could also get its constituents analysed. Interestingly, and as is often the case, the commenter concerned rather carefully didn't mention which particular solder it was which was supposedly the same, so it is not realistically very easy to pove him wrong!
Regards,
Looks like Eric is far too busy sleeping his life away to care!
O.K., so the crux (crutch!) is, its up to the thread-starter, then, really, so I'll blame Eric.
I'll say anything to avoid being banned, like I thought I had, yesterday. 🙁I have just waded through all of the " Sound of Solder" thread, and I'm glad I wasn't around then!
Some people just want to spend their days arguing, almost irrespective of what it is about, it seems.
Actually, neither I, nor they can *prove* that its Friday today, can we, so I suppose then it cannot be.
Anyway, nothing I have read there has done anything to vary my views, except, perhaps, to reinforce some of them. I was especially interested in the comments on the various incarnations of Wondersolder which mirror what I have just said to you, but it seems no-one has yet twigged about the different gauges sounding different, nor about my hypothesis over the flux.
I don't mean to seem arrogant, but I still believe my thoughts over this not very well-controlled interface of a 'new' alloy which is formed (actually twice at each joint. i.e. where the solder kisses the lead and also where it kisses the copper track, which amounts to *four* places for every two leaded component) has a lot to do with the phenomenon.
Maybe one day we will all know, but in the meantime I will use up my reels of Wondersolder, WBT, A/S silver solder etc., and probably get hold of some Cardas for comparison, when I next order up from the 'States.
Finally, I have heard from somewhere that Wondersolder is the same as some of the stuff from Radio Shack, but that, in my opinion is just sour grapes. I would be very interested to get a piece of this and cut it up, if necessary, and look closely at it and its flux. I could also get its constituents analysed. Interestingly, and as is often the case, the commenter concerned rather carefully didn't mention which particular solder it was which was supposedly the same, so it is not realistically very easy to pove him wrong!
Regards,
Am I Being Blamed Again ?....
I'm awake now, but I have to zoom off to work soon to do some soldering (to keep some customers happy). 😉
Bob, no objections from me about how this thread is developing between you and Frank (and me sometimes).
I went and reread the whole 'Sound of Solder' thread last night, and yes it did bring out some good information, except for the inteference of the naysayer *********, which ultimately closed the thread.
I agree with you regarding larger diameter solder wires containing rather more flux than thinner ones.
Given the choice, I typically use 0.90 mm size for all my work.
I agree that the solder joint result is different too with larger solder.
I find the secret to good joints is to first clean all oxides from the surface of the solder wire, and then use excessive amount of solder to dissolve away oxides from the surfaces being bonded.
The whole joint becomes covered (drowned) in an air eliminating layer of flux, and the excess solder wicked away with the solder tip to leave a normal amount of solder as the joint.
This longer time than usual process allows time for the solder to alloy nicely into both surfaces, and leave a clean and well bonded joint.
Isopropyl alcohol, an art brush and tissue complete the clean up to reveal perfect looking joints, that in my experience stay perfectly reliable.
This is not too difficult, but then again I have soldered many hundred of thousands of joints by now I reckon.
Sorry, I'm out of time so I have to go, and I'll be at the GF's place all weekend.
You two have my express permission to carry on with this thread just as you like. 😉
Eric.
I'm awake now, but I have to zoom off to work soon to do some soldering (to keep some customers happy). 😉
Bob, no objections from me about how this thread is developing between you and Frank (and me sometimes).
I went and reread the whole 'Sound of Solder' thread last night, and yes it did bring out some good information, except for the inteference of the naysayer *********, which ultimately closed the thread.
I agree with you regarding larger diameter solder wires containing rather more flux than thinner ones.
Given the choice, I typically use 0.90 mm size for all my work.
I agree that the solder joint result is different too with larger solder.
I find the secret to good joints is to first clean all oxides from the surface of the solder wire, and then use excessive amount of solder to dissolve away oxides from the surfaces being bonded.
The whole joint becomes covered (drowned) in an air eliminating layer of flux, and the excess solder wicked away with the solder tip to leave a normal amount of solder as the joint.
This longer time than usual process allows time for the solder to alloy nicely into both surfaces, and leave a clean and well bonded joint.
Isopropyl alcohol, an art brush and tissue complete the clean up to reveal perfect looking joints, that in my experience stay perfectly reliable.
This is not too difficult, but then again I have soldered many hundred of thousands of joints by now I reckon.
Sorry, I'm out of time so I have to go, and I'll be at the GF's place all weekend.
You two have my express permission to carry on with this thread just as you like. 😉
Eric.
MORE ABOUT CAPS.
Hi Bob,
I thought I'd let you know about this lenghty thread:
SKINNING CAPS
Care to join it?
Cheers,😉
Hi Bob,
I thought I'd let you know about this lenghty thread:
SKINNING CAPS
Care to join it?
Cheers,😉
Re: MORE ABOUT CAPS.
Hi Frank,
Yes, you mentioned it under the BG thread, but as I said in response, I have no experience of trying this yet, for myself, so I will not join in like so many others have done.
I was interested to hear you have tried it, and that there is an effect, so, given time I will have a go, and see what I think.
Actually, it took me most of a whole day to read the entire thread, and I have rarely seen such dogma in discussions, especially from people who haven't the inclination to try out something for themselves.
I got rather bored with the entire thread before long, but as I am interested in furthering my knowledge, I did stick it out, and lately matters have improved a lot!
It reminded me of another person who was determined to misrepresent or misunderstand what I was saying in the BG thread, and who continued to insist that everyone was more interested in the BG literature, anyway, and the sound of the caps seemed to be mostly irrelevant to him!
To me, the only thing that matters is trying out something new and seeing what the results are 'sonically, and if anyone else wishes to waste hours on theoretical 'higher plane' discussions on the relevant literature, they can do so alone!
In spite of all that I read in the 'skinning' thread, my view over my earlier postulation (in the BG thread) about the DA effects being the most likely cause hasn't changed, and it was interesting to see Jonathan's reference to removing heatshrink, just as I had referred to.
He was careful not to say that this was directly related, but, nevertheless he did mention it in the same breath. I was also interested in his differentiation between the metal used to enclose electrolytics, and the actual skinning process, although he did not explain things to the level which I would have found more valuable.
Regards,
fdegrove said:
Hi Frank,
Yes, you mentioned it under the BG thread, but as I said in response, I have no experience of trying this yet, for myself, so I will not join in like so many others have done.
I was interested to hear you have tried it, and that there is an effect, so, given time I will have a go, and see what I think.
Actually, it took me most of a whole day to read the entire thread, and I have rarely seen such dogma in discussions, especially from people who haven't the inclination to try out something for themselves.
I got rather bored with the entire thread before long, but as I am interested in furthering my knowledge, I did stick it out, and lately matters have improved a lot!
It reminded me of another person who was determined to misrepresent or misunderstand what I was saying in the BG thread, and who continued to insist that everyone was more interested in the BG literature, anyway, and the sound of the caps seemed to be mostly irrelevant to him!
To me, the only thing that matters is trying out something new and seeing what the results are 'sonically, and if anyone else wishes to waste hours on theoretical 'higher plane' discussions on the relevant literature, they can do so alone!
In spite of all that I read in the 'skinning' thread, my view over my earlier postulation (in the BG thread) about the DA effects being the most likely cause hasn't changed, and it was interesting to see Jonathan's reference to removing heatshrink, just as I had referred to.
He was careful not to say that this was directly related, but, nevertheless he did mention it in the same breath. I was also interested in his differentiation between the metal used to enclose electrolytics, and the actual skinning process, although he did not explain things to the level which I would have found more valuable.
Regards,
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