mrfeedback said:
Sorry no, they are one of the (very) few caps I have not tried, and since I am under the impression that they are really not at the very high end, I am unlikely to. However, I am almost certain that they are made by SCR, the French company who make the 'Solen' polypropylene caps, amongst others.
If no-one else can come up with any more definite opinions, it might not be too far off the mark to assume that they may sound quite similar.
Regards,
I tried Axon caps but like Solen's I wasn't impressed with them. Wima sounded better. But those were very first Axon caps, current production might be different.
Non Tinny Sonics ?.
Hi Peter,
I'm curious about the tin-foil plates.
Do these give a character, different to say aluminium plates - along the lines of lead free solder sounding different to lead solder.
Eric.
Hi Peter,
I'm curious about the tin-foil plates.
Do these give a character, different to say aluminium plates - along the lines of lead free solder sounding different to lead solder.
Eric.
Re: Non Tinny Sonics ?.
Hi,
FWIW, they certainly do in MIT Multicaps, and their tin foil jobs (PPFXS) are significantly nicer to listen to than the PPFX types which are otherwise identical apart from using aluminium foils.
The difference is similar to using silver foils as opposed to copper foils in paper-in-oil caps.
Regards,
mrfeedback said:
Hi,
FWIW, they certainly do in MIT Multicaps, and their tin foil jobs (PPFXS) are significantly nicer to listen to than the PPFX types which are otherwise identical apart from using aluminium foils.
The difference is similar to using silver foils as opposed to copper foils in paper-in-oil caps.
Regards,
What Nicer Is Nicer ?...
Thanks Bob.
You say "significantly nicer to listen to".
In my experience tin/silver solder (lead free) initially can sound a little dullish or something, but on extended listening is revealed to be more nicely detailed and kinder and gentler on the ear.
Is this the sort of "nicer" you mean ?.
Eric.
Thanks Bob.
You say "significantly nicer to listen to".
In my experience tin/silver solder (lead free) initially can sound a little dullish or something, but on extended listening is revealed to be more nicely detailed and kinder and gentler on the ear.
Is this the sort of "nicer" you mean ?.
Eric.
Re: What Nicer Is Nicer ?...
Yes, as you know, subjective matters like the sound of audio gear are very difficult to describe effectively.
With the MITs I mentioned, the tin-foil jobs are cleaner and more revealing of small nuances in the music etc. so the result is hearing more details in the sound.
However, this is not at the expense of any unwanted hardness or shrillness, as their 'sonic attributes' are smoother and they sound more silky on HF sibilants, especially on female voices, which I find very revealing to listen to in any such comparative trials.
Voices, in general, simply sound more realistic to me, and I have been listening everyday to peoples' voices for over 60 years, so I am more familiar with what a 'natural' voice would sound like than say orchestral music which I only hear *live* a few times a year.
I regularly go to concerts of a local (ageing) singer, Raymond Froggat (in fact I have done so for about 30 years), so I know quite well how he sounds in the flesh, and always when I return home, I immediately play some of his CDs (at realistc levels!) to see how they differ, which is very handy yardstick.
Perhaps a little surprisingly, a male voice (like his) covers a large proportion of the normal audio spectrum, and even tiny details are quite easy to discern.
Especially where human voices go, we are very good at recognising the many thousands of voices we get to know during our lifetimes, and yet some of the differences between many peoples voices are quite minute, but we are still so quick to spot who it is we are listening to just by these slight differences in the 'flavour' of the sounds. Therefore I place great reliance on the human voice when I am assessing components during listening trials.
I regret to say that I would not be so good at recognising say a Stradivarius violin, for example, although I do have a neighbour who plays one, and I have heard it played live a few times.
It is all down to familiarity, and accordingly, I do better with voices!
Anyway, I'm not usually one for guessing, nor for making generalisations, but I would guess that in every case where tin is used in an otherwise identical film cap which used aluminium, the tin would sound better overall.
Similarly, copper would be rather better than tin, and silver would be better still.
By the same token, and from the same manufacturers and using similar constructions, polystyrene (if you can get them!) will generally be better than polypropylene, then comes polycarbonate, and then polyester, if that is of any use to you to know, in making choices as to what are worth trying out.
In every case, though, it is listening to the components themselves which is what counts, and I have been doing this for close to 30 years, now, so I have picked up a few tips along the way!
Regards,
mrfeedback said:
Yes, as you know, subjective matters like the sound of audio gear are very difficult to describe effectively.
With the MITs I mentioned, the tin-foil jobs are cleaner and more revealing of small nuances in the music etc. so the result is hearing more details in the sound.
However, this is not at the expense of any unwanted hardness or shrillness, as their 'sonic attributes' are smoother and they sound more silky on HF sibilants, especially on female voices, which I find very revealing to listen to in any such comparative trials.
Voices, in general, simply sound more realistic to me, and I have been listening everyday to peoples' voices for over 60 years, so I am more familiar with what a 'natural' voice would sound like than say orchestral music which I only hear *live* a few times a year.
I regularly go to concerts of a local (ageing) singer, Raymond Froggat (in fact I have done so for about 30 years), so I know quite well how he sounds in the flesh, and always when I return home, I immediately play some of his CDs (at realistc levels!) to see how they differ, which is very handy yardstick.
Perhaps a little surprisingly, a male voice (like his) covers a large proportion of the normal audio spectrum, and even tiny details are quite easy to discern.
Especially where human voices go, we are very good at recognising the many thousands of voices we get to know during our lifetimes, and yet some of the differences between many peoples voices are quite minute, but we are still so quick to spot who it is we are listening to just by these slight differences in the 'flavour' of the sounds. Therefore I place great reliance on the human voice when I am assessing components during listening trials.
I regret to say that I would not be so good at recognising say a Stradivarius violin, for example, although I do have a neighbour who plays one, and I have heard it played live a few times.
It is all down to familiarity, and accordingly, I do better with voices!
Anyway, I'm not usually one for guessing, nor for making generalisations, but I would guess that in every case where tin is used in an otherwise identical film cap which used aluminium, the tin would sound better overall.
Similarly, copper would be rather better than tin, and silver would be better still.
By the same token, and from the same manufacturers and using similar constructions, polystyrene (if you can get them!) will generally be better than polypropylene, then comes polycarbonate, and then polyester, if that is of any use to you to know, in making choices as to what are worth trying out.
In every case, though, it is listening to the components themselves which is what counts, and I have been doing this for close to 30 years, now, so I have picked up a few tips along the way!
Regards,
Thanks Bob for taking the trouble to make your long reply.
I well agree with you regarding voices being a good means of assessing system sonics.
From what you are saying, it seems that tin foil does give a 'flavour' similar to 96S solder, for the attributes you describe - "the tin-foil jobs are cleaner and more revealing of small nuances in the music etc. so the result is hearing more details in the sound. ", I have found by using this lead free solder.
Have you tried 96S or 96SC solders ?.
Eric.
I well agree with you regarding voices being a good means of assessing system sonics.
From what you are saying, it seems that tin foil does give a 'flavour' similar to 96S solder, for the attributes you describe - "the tin-foil jobs are cleaner and more revealing of small nuances in the music etc. so the result is hearing more details in the sound. ", I have found by using this lead free solder.
Have you tried 96S or 96SC solders ?.
Eric.
Hi Eric,
No, I haven't tried that particular solder yet, and I don't know who makes it. Is it Kester, perhaps, maybe you could tell me sometime.
For many years I have used the 'Wondersolder' range from TRT, and their latest 'Ultraclear' is quite good and very easy to work with, and, according to the makers it is used by quite a few cable manufacturers and audio gear makers, for what that is worth.
I also use WBT-0820, "silver" solder for any cables I make up, and I have some other "silver" solder supplied by Audiosynthesis.
They both have their applications, and seem to 'sound' good too.
I will try some of the Cardas "Quad Eutechtic" solder sometime when I am ordering up some bits from the USA, as I have heard some good reports about that.
Apart from that, I have about 6 different 'non-audiophile' solders from people like Multicore, and a few special application types like aluminium solder etc.
As I used to work as a jeweller & silversmith many years ago, I still have very many different 'hard' solders, including the various different melting point 'proper' silver solders etc. I say 'proper' because, strictly speaking, these recent "silver" solders which are bandied about are not really silver solder at all.
At the most they will only contain say up to about 4% of silver, whereas true silver solder will be almost all silver, with some small additives of base metals to lower its melting point to that which is desired.
My belief, after many listening trials some years ago, is that the quality and effectiveness of the flux used has at least as much sonic effect as the metal used in the solder. Similarly, I always scrape components leads with a sharp blade and rub the copper traces with a fibreglass pencil, and then clean everything off with solvent, prior to soldering.
I doubt that you would hear any difference with one or two soldered joints when doing this, but on an entire board, I can assure you that it is very noticeable and worthwhile.
Quite a while ago, I used to make up stereo boards (initially) using one method or type of solder for one, and an alternative for the other, and I was quite surprised at the overall differences.
You do need to ensure you don't give yourself a bum steer when doing this kind of trial, as, for example, I have never heard two (apparently identical) speakers to sound *exactly* the same, nor even two channels of the same amplifier, either (including my own with all components value-matched etc.) but by careful swapping and changing, it is possible to eliminate (nearly!) all unwanted 'bias'.
Generally, I found that the changes were so obvious, that the swapping about was not even necessary, but it is always sensible to be cautious, unless you don't mind a bit of self deceit!
Interestingly, also many years ago I experimented for a while with some interconnect cables made up from solder wire in teflon sheaths to see how they sounded, and I agree that lead, for example, does 'sound' very dead and sluggish when the effects are exaggerated in this way.
Also, if I recall well, an Englishman by the name of Peter Belt (who still espouses some rather way out ideas!) marketed some lead cables, probably 20 years ago, and they apparently did have quite an effect on the resultant sound.
My guess would be that (if they did have any popularity) any 'improvements' would have resulted from the fact that they would tend to reduce (by masking) the 'transistor sound', which by then had been recognised.
Regrettably, this masking of unwanted harshness would also reduce the details in the music, itself, so it is not a good way of achieving that particular goal!
Regards,
No, I haven't tried that particular solder yet, and I don't know who makes it. Is it Kester, perhaps, maybe you could tell me sometime.
For many years I have used the 'Wondersolder' range from TRT, and their latest 'Ultraclear' is quite good and very easy to work with, and, according to the makers it is used by quite a few cable manufacturers and audio gear makers, for what that is worth.
I also use WBT-0820, "silver" solder for any cables I make up, and I have some other "silver" solder supplied by Audiosynthesis.
They both have their applications, and seem to 'sound' good too.
I will try some of the Cardas "Quad Eutechtic" solder sometime when I am ordering up some bits from the USA, as I have heard some good reports about that.
Apart from that, I have about 6 different 'non-audiophile' solders from people like Multicore, and a few special application types like aluminium solder etc.
As I used to work as a jeweller & silversmith many years ago, I still have very many different 'hard' solders, including the various different melting point 'proper' silver solders etc. I say 'proper' because, strictly speaking, these recent "silver" solders which are bandied about are not really silver solder at all.
At the most they will only contain say up to about 4% of silver, whereas true silver solder will be almost all silver, with some small additives of base metals to lower its melting point to that which is desired.
My belief, after many listening trials some years ago, is that the quality and effectiveness of the flux used has at least as much sonic effect as the metal used in the solder. Similarly, I always scrape components leads with a sharp blade and rub the copper traces with a fibreglass pencil, and then clean everything off with solvent, prior to soldering.
I doubt that you would hear any difference with one or two soldered joints when doing this, but on an entire board, I can assure you that it is very noticeable and worthwhile.
Quite a while ago, I used to make up stereo boards (initially) using one method or type of solder for one, and an alternative for the other, and I was quite surprised at the overall differences.
You do need to ensure you don't give yourself a bum steer when doing this kind of trial, as, for example, I have never heard two (apparently identical) speakers to sound *exactly* the same, nor even two channels of the same amplifier, either (including my own with all components value-matched etc.) but by careful swapping and changing, it is possible to eliminate (nearly!) all unwanted 'bias'.
Generally, I found that the changes were so obvious, that the swapping about was not even necessary, but it is always sensible to be cautious, unless you don't mind a bit of self deceit!
Interestingly, also many years ago I experimented for a while with some interconnect cables made up from solder wire in teflon sheaths to see how they sounded, and I agree that lead, for example, does 'sound' very dead and sluggish when the effects are exaggerated in this way.
Also, if I recall well, an Englishman by the name of Peter Belt (who still espouses some rather way out ideas!) marketed some lead cables, probably 20 years ago, and they apparently did have quite an effect on the resultant sound.
My guess would be that (if they did have any popularity) any 'improvements' would have resulted from the fact that they would tend to reduce (by masking) the 'transistor sound', which by then had been recognised.
Regrettably, this masking of unwanted harshness would also reduce the details in the music, itself, so it is not a good way of achieving that particular goal!
Regards,
TIN PAN ALLEY
Hi,
Eric...do you want to talk solder or filmfoil caps?🙄
Naughty boy...you just wanted to revive the solder issue,didn't you?😉
Hi,
Eric...do you want to talk solder or filmfoil caps?🙄
Naughty boy...you just wanted to revive the solder issue,didn't you?😉
Sound Of Solder Alloys - Part 2
I just noticed that Frank has dropped by - we went through this sort of discussion together a while back - he has a fine sense of humour and is just being cheeky in this case.
Frank, got any other bits to add - we finally have someone who understands our language. 😀
Regards, Eric.
Bobken said:
I just noticed that Frank has dropped by - we went through this sort of discussion together a while back - he has a fine sense of humour and is just being cheeky in this case.
Frank, got any other bits to add - we finally have someone who understands our language. 😀
Regards, Eric.
MOVIE CAPS.
Hi Eric San,
Yep,a Wiki on the perfect filmcap perhaps?
Don't mind doing the same for the dreaded electrolytes either.
No tongue in cheek here though mate.😉
Hi Eric San,
Yep,a Wiki on the perfect filmcap perhaps?
Don't mind doing the same for the dreaded electrolytes either.
No tongue in cheek here though mate.😉
Re: TIN PAN ALLEY
Hi Frank, I mainly started as an extension of the sound of differing metals and alloys we have had previously, in this case concerning tin as capacitor conductors, and you know how these discussions can evolve. 😉
I have not been near the Wiki for a while - I am sure any contribution you make would be well recieved.
Eric.
PS - Bob has answered my suspicions regarding tin-foil caps, and the experience he relates suggests to me that the sonics of these are along the lines of high tin content solder.
fdegrove said:
Hi Frank, I mainly started as an extension of the sound of differing metals and alloys we have had previously, in this case concerning tin as capacitor conductors, and you know how these discussions can evolve. 😉
I have not been near the Wiki for a while - I am sure any contribution you make would be well recieved.
Eric.
PS - Bob has answered my suspicions regarding tin-foil caps, and the experience he relates suggests to me that the sonics of these are along the lines of high tin content solder.
LOL.
Hi,
Sorry but this is fun to me....can I?
O.K.,so lets make some purely subjective gradations based in our own experiences.
Tin foil should be better then metalised (sputtered metal particles).
Copper foil better still.
Silver foil + non fluorine teflon non inductively wound...a wet dream?
PIO is just for the nostalgic "radio granma" types I reckon?
I want my music uncoloured just as I hear it live?😉
Hi,
Sorry but this is fun to me....can I?
O.K.,so lets make some purely subjective gradations based in our own experiences.
Tin foil should be better then metalised (sputtered metal particles).
Copper foil better still.
Silver foil + non fluorine teflon non inductively wound...a wet dream?
PIO is just for the nostalgic "radio granma" types I reckon?
I want my music uncoloured just as I hear it live?😉
TAKE THIS.
Hi,
And if your left handed you'll even suffer more since many sound engineers compensate for the fact that most people are right handed and unbalance the sound accordingly???
It's a fact.😱
Hi,
And if your left handed you'll even suffer more since many sound engineers compensate for the fact that most people are right handed and unbalance the sound accordingly???
It's a fact.😱
Another Trashed Intelligent Thread...
I find Northern Hemisphere recordings sound best when I stand on my head.
Southern Hemisphere live recordings sound sound more natural to me with a drink in my left hand.
Eric.
I find Northern Hemisphere recordings sound best when I stand on my head.
Southern Hemisphere live recordings sound sound more natural to me with a drink in my left hand.
Eric.
Re: LOL.
I think they sound best if hand rolled on the thighs of nubile, doe-eyed gurls (preferrably brunette). That's my sort of diy.fdegrove said:
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