Avant garde uses a 7 inch midrange driver for its midrange horn.
The midrange is a dome, not a cone.
Either they make there own driver? or, they glued a "large" dust cap onto a "small" 7 in woofer.
Anyone know who makes a 16 ohm 7 -8 inch driver?
I am trying to learn about horns for a (possible) 2A3 amp build. Even very expensive Compression drivers need to have the crossover from midrange horn to woofer(s) in the lower midrange. Being used to full range electrostats with their seamless integration of Bass through treble, I am afraid I wouldn't like the sound of compression driver midrange if it only ended at 500 (or so) Hz, and a different (sounding ((?)) )driver took over from there.
Plus, I guess, I'd like the 2A3 sound to go all the way through the midrange, as I'd have my moscode power the bass drivers.
Thanks,
Paul
The midrange is a dome, not a cone.
Either they make there own driver? or, they glued a "large" dust cap onto a "small" 7 in woofer.
Anyone know who makes a 16 ohm 7 -8 inch driver?
I am trying to learn about horns for a (possible) 2A3 amp build. Even very expensive Compression drivers need to have the crossover from midrange horn to woofer(s) in the lower midrange. Being used to full range electrostats with their seamless integration of Bass through treble, I am afraid I wouldn't like the sound of compression driver midrange if it only ended at 500 (or so) Hz, and a different (sounding ((?)) )driver took over from there.
Plus, I guess, I'd like the 2A3 sound to go all the way through the midrange, as I'd have my moscode power the bass drivers.
Thanks,
Paul
Do you want to go filter-less? In that case you'll look for a while. A 6-8" can work well from fc to 2kHz, but my experience is that a phase plug is your friend. Even for a 4" driver, a 2-slit plug is a good idea if you want to filter minimally and at 2" a single slit plug doubles usable bandwidth. Thing is, the smaller your driver, the longer the horn and the worse time-alignment issues become.
pforeman,
The jbl 2118j could work. It has 97db efficiency and is a good driver. Keep an eye on ebay as they come up fairly often.
If you are not happy with the performance of your speaker, it may pay for you to sell it before you try modifications and decrease the value of your speakers. Since this is a diy forum here are some possible options:
Look at John Inlows site for some horn speaker options-- both diy and complete systems. A front loaded mid bass horn is the best way to mate up with a midrange horn.
Go to DIY Sound Group site and look at their horns / waveguides for some ideas.
Do a search of Dr. Bruce Edgar's horn system and read some of the papers he has written about horn theory.
You can build a sonically superior speaker than the Avant garde duo for less money using TAD 4001 /2001 or Jbl 2441 compression drivers ( just to name a few ) using proper horns.
Horns LOVE good SET amplifiers. Good luck.
The jbl 2118j could work. It has 97db efficiency and is a good driver. Keep an eye on ebay as they come up fairly often.
If you are not happy with the performance of your speaker, it may pay for you to sell it before you try modifications and decrease the value of your speakers. Since this is a diy forum here are some possible options:
Look at John Inlows site for some horn speaker options-- both diy and complete systems. A front loaded mid bass horn is the best way to mate up with a midrange horn.
Go to DIY Sound Group site and look at their horns / waveguides for some ideas.
Do a search of Dr. Bruce Edgar's horn system and read some of the papers he has written about horn theory.
You can build a sonically superior speaker than the Avant garde duo for less money using TAD 4001 /2001 or Jbl 2441 compression drivers ( just to name a few ) using proper horns.
Horns LOVE good SET amplifiers. Good luck.
Filterless? Perhaps. Perhaps I would use a PLXXO (cap on the input of amp) to cut the lows, or perhaps a electronic crossover like a Behringer.
I've read (somewhere??) that using a front chamber will filter out highs.
I'll have to read some more about this.
In these early days of planning, I'd first like to figure out which drivers to use, and horn sizes and shapes.
My goal was to simulate something like the Avant Garde duo.
I'd like as few drivers as possible to avoid integration problems.
I'd like to avoid crossovers in the midrange .
I'd like to maximize efficiency,make it an easy load for the amp.
But mostly, I want it to sound sweet!
Don't know much about compression drivers. Are my concerns unfounded, about compression drivers crossing over at 500 -800 Hz unfounded, considering that I am used to full range electrostats sound?
A mid (/woofer) with a phase plug will do the job as well as Avant Gardes
dome woofer?
Thanks again for your help
Paul
I've read (somewhere??) that using a front chamber will filter out highs.
I'll have to read some more about this.
In these early days of planning, I'd first like to figure out which drivers to use, and horn sizes and shapes.
My goal was to simulate something like the Avant Garde duo.
I'd like as few drivers as possible to avoid integration problems.
I'd like to avoid crossovers in the midrange .
I'd like to maximize efficiency,make it an easy load for the amp.
But mostly, I want it to sound sweet!
Don't know much about compression drivers. Are my concerns unfounded, about compression drivers crossing over at 500 -800 Hz unfounded, considering that I am used to full range electrostats sound?
A mid (/woofer) with a phase plug will do the job as well as Avant Gardes
dome woofer?
Thanks again for your help
Paul
My opinion on Avantgarde is that they over-simplify their HF filter in the Uno/Duo (cannot speak for the Trio yet)
My experience is that most of the sound is down to the horn and how well it is coupled to the driver. If you want a minimalist crossover, then I would highly suggest mechanically time-aligning the HF and mid, which moves one to adopt a large mid driver short horn for the mid if one doesn't have time-alignment. I am currently working on an 8" phase plug for exactly this to test it against a modified compression driver crossing at ~400Hz with a digital crossover. One of the big factors is the horn flare rate being low enough.
Avantgarde have obviously done a lot of development on acoustic filters. As a DIYer, chances are that an electrical filter is a lesser evil than pursuing minimalism at any cost.
My experience is that most of the sound is down to the horn and how well it is coupled to the driver. If you want a minimalist crossover, then I would highly suggest mechanically time-aligning the HF and mid, which moves one to adopt a large mid driver short horn for the mid if one doesn't have time-alignment. I am currently working on an 8" phase plug for exactly this to test it against a modified compression driver crossing at ~400Hz with a digital crossover. One of the big factors is the horn flare rate being low enough.
Avantgarde have obviously done a lot of development on acoustic filters. As a DIYer, chances are that an electrical filter is a lesser evil than pursuing minimalism at any cost.
why 16 ohm ?
Why do you think you need a 16 ohm driver? Also, I would have to say I agree 100% with your approach since I do the very same thing. It does, however, take a large front horn. Like an Oris 150, or a Sousa 160.
Adding a bass section below, and a tweeter above, is also quite the challenge, but once done correct, it's pretty hard to beat.
Why do you think you need a 16 ohm driver? Also, I would have to say I agree 100% with your approach since I do the very same thing. It does, however, take a large front horn. Like an Oris 150, or a Sousa 160.
Adding a bass section below, and a tweeter above, is also quite the challenge, but once done correct, it's pretty hard to beat.
The Avantgarde midrange driver is a cone, not a dome.
See here the First and the Omega (16ohm) driver.
See here the First and the Omega (16ohm) driver.
They are Davis Acoustics model 16 GKLV 6 MR
and 16 TK 6 with a 15" or 18" dustcap glued.
and 16 TK 6 with a 15" or 18" dustcap glued.
I'm agree, very look like Davis Acoustic, they are suppliers for many brands and makes on demand ! So I don't think it's the one you talk about but surely same substrate !
I'm asking myself the advantage of a cone-domed profil in a horn ?!
Their current catalog is more than 300 different units for OEM I believe !
I'm asking myself the advantage of a cone-domed profil in a horn ?!
Their current catalog is more than 300 different units for OEM I believe !
Take close attention on details...same basket,same thickness,same terminal pins,same cone,same suspensions....
Remove the phase plug and put a big dustcap and done....
The advantage ?....maybe they choose this driver for linearity and soft suspensions....also the big horn can be shorter if is used this type "cone (domed)" ....probabily the low cutoff freq.
Remove the phase plug and put a big dustcap and done....
The advantage ?....maybe they choose this driver for linearity and soft suspensions....also the big horn can be shorter if is used this type "cone (domed)" ....probabily the low cutoff freq.
Attachments
The TiCoNAl magnett seems to be the same and is surely outsourced (would like to know its Curry point, hoping to be better than the old ALtec which were fragil ein the time due to heat issues iirc!)
In the Avant Garde, the cone seems more to be their black woven carbon than the kevlar one ! The dome ??? Polypro I assume ! And yes seems glued !
The dome is also more linear than a cone shape ? with less break ups and a smoother roll off ? (better for a horn ?)
For the AvantGarde Duo I'm asking what is the 1" ? Is it the treble family of the Community driver ? (phenomelic diaphragm) !
For the domed mid, the closest of shelves stuff is the Morel dome drivers (6") !
In the Avant Garde, the cone seems more to be their black woven carbon than the kevlar one ! The dome ??? Polypro I assume ! And yes seems glued !
The dome is also more linear than a cone shape ? with less break ups and a smoother roll off ? (better for a horn ?)
For the AvantGarde Duo I'm asking what is the 1" ? Is it the treble family of the Community driver ? (phenomelic diaphragm) !
For the domed mid, the closest of shelves stuff is the Morel dome drivers (6") !
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As to the "advantage" (is there any?) of using a dome glued to the cine, I can think of two reasons:
1)
Maybe the idea is mimic a flat disk driver for the horn. According to Geddes the ideal horn driver should be a flat disk. A compression driver approximates that quite well.
A cone is not flat, whereas gluing a flat disk to the cone often creates unwanted serious break up. The dome shape may behave -much- better in this respect, but that is - I do realise that- an assumption and generalization.
2)
Toe create the impresssion of non standard, unique Avant Garde driver. ("Our intensive R& D had lead to the development of a unique mid range driver, providing exceptional clarity, speed and detail") The thing High End exotic manufacturers fear most is easy recognizability of the drivers they use as being off the shelf.
Good Luck, Eelco
1)
Maybe the idea is mimic a flat disk driver for the horn. According to Geddes the ideal horn driver should be a flat disk. A compression driver approximates that quite well.
A cone is not flat, whereas gluing a flat disk to the cone often creates unwanted serious break up. The dome shape may behave -much- better in this respect, but that is - I do realise that- an assumption and generalization.
2)
Toe create the impresssion of non standard, unique Avant Garde driver. ("Our intensive R& D had lead to the development of a unique mid range driver, providing exceptional clarity, speed and detail") The thing High End exotic manufacturers fear most is easy recognizability of the drivers they use as being off the shelf.
Good Luck, Eelco
AvantGrade 😛 (I didn't like at all their white first model I call the white plancha which is not sounding good in the shop I heard it : the low end was horrible and room imho wasn't just the issue ! and a very directive speaker : hard to find a sweet spot but if lied on the floor !)
I agree, yes, make it specific because it's expensive in the eyes of the owner !
It could be tricky to try the Davis of shelves in an Azurahorn with the Fs of the horn /2 in relation to the XO choosed with the driver and see what happen !
Btw, I think many answered elswhere already, what is the treble unit in the Duo an EV or a Community compression driver ?
with some new good dome treble like the SB acoustic at 96 dB efficienty, it could be a good match in a wave guide à la Zaph/Troels G. to winn some more precious dB
the Davis like the SB acoustic have same efficienty or very near !
It should be possible to have 100 dB efficienty without compression drivers which is enough in a Home !
I believe also the reader should read what Weltersys made with a Vifa TC9 in a horn (unityhorn here) and xrq971 made with the same type of quasi full range in a horn (Trynergy thread)
@ the OP : what a bout the low end ? independant sub ?
I agree, yes, make it specific because it's expensive in the eyes of the owner !
It could be tricky to try the Davis of shelves in an Azurahorn with the Fs of the horn /2 in relation to the XO choosed with the driver and see what happen !
Btw, I think many answered elswhere already, what is the treble unit in the Duo an EV or a Community compression driver ?
with some new good dome treble like the SB acoustic at 96 dB efficienty, it could be a good match in a wave guide à la Zaph/Troels G. to winn some more precious dB
the Davis like the SB acoustic have same efficienty or very near !
It should be possible to have 100 dB efficienty without compression drivers which is enough in a Home !
I believe also the reader should read what Weltersys made with a Vifa TC9 in a horn (unityhorn here) and xrq971 made with the same type of quasi full range in a horn (Trynergy thread)
@ the OP : what a bout the low end ? independant sub ?
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Very old thread but I am trying to find out what the compression drivers are in these avantgarde duos. I have a set of the 8ohm versions (pre omega upgrade) and one of the tweeters has stated to sound a bit dull.
The midrange drivers are definitely the Davis Acoustics as the basket on mine is stamped “Davis”!
Any help would be appreciated
All the best
The midrange drivers are definitely the Davis Acoustics as the basket on mine is stamped “Davis”!
Any help would be appreciated
All the best
Avantgarde Duo Mezzo.....
Theese are the original components used in Avantgarde Duo Mezzo with a small difference at winding bobin of original Davis
-midrange.........Davis Acoustics 16TK6 V2
-tweeter.............Beyma CP380M
-Bass...................Beyma 12LX60.....2 units per side
-Active crossover with room correction is used only at bass
Here's mine.....
Theese are the original components used in Avantgarde Duo Mezzo with a small difference at winding bobin of original Davis
-midrange.........Davis Acoustics 16TK6 V2
-tweeter.............Beyma CP380M
-Bass...................Beyma 12LX60.....2 units per side
-Active crossover with room correction is used only at bass
Here's mine.....
Attachments
Those 12LX60 look like the v2 version with that large dustcap. Are they used in a closed box in this speaker ? And where is the crossover frequency to the mid ?
Regards
Charles
Regards
Charles
My stock Duos look to have the 16GKLV6 midrange drivers and the tweeter seems to be a Beymer CP350 (thanks @felixx for the point in the right direction).
The Beymer CP350 is discontinued so I assume Avantgarde started to use the CP380 in the “omega” version of the upgrade.
As one of my tweeters (believed to be the CP350) is sounding a little “off” I am thinking of replacing both with the CP380. Looking at the specs these do seem a bit more sensitive so not sure if this would have a significant negative impact on the voicing.
This has made me think about also upgrading the midrange drivers to the 16TK6 V2 and I guess these pair more nicely with the CP380 like the original omega upgrades that Avantgarde sold back in the day.
What is confusing me is the drivers Avantgarde used for the omega upgrade pack seem to be 16ohm.
Maybe I need to give it some more thought although I’m excited about making some tweaks!
The Beymer CP350 is discontinued so I assume Avantgarde started to use the CP380 in the “omega” version of the upgrade.
As one of my tweeters (believed to be the CP350) is sounding a little “off” I am thinking of replacing both with the CP380. Looking at the specs these do seem a bit more sensitive so not sure if this would have a significant negative impact on the voicing.
This has made me think about also upgrading the midrange drivers to the 16TK6 V2 and I guess these pair more nicely with the CP380 like the original omega upgrades that Avantgarde sold back in the day.
What is confusing me is the drivers Avantgarde used for the omega upgrade pack seem to be 16ohm.
Maybe I need to give it some more thought although I’m excited about making some tweaks!
My subwoofers are powered and have a variable crossover frequency which is set at about 170Hz. The midrange driver has no crossover and covers from 170-2000Hz (approx). The tweeter horn has a crossover which I think is two 2.2uf caps in parallel and an inductor (can’t remember the valve but have it written somewhere).