Auditory Perception in relation to this hobby

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It isn't actually phase that is so important, at least at higher frequencies. Group delay, the rate of change of phase with respect to frequency is something that is understood by some engineers as potentially objectionable in some cases.

Most of the things people don't understand related to perception are caused by phase. Group delay is obviously phase related.

But, look, there are other things besides frequency and phase that can be important. There are various kinds of distortion. There is noise floor modulation in sigma-delta dacs, which some people find very objectionable.

It should be more important when people understanding about it is minimum or even wrong.

Also, IMHO, there has been a lot of incomplete research about what can be audible under different circumstances. The big problem there is that nobody wants to pay for the very expensive research it would take to come a lot closer to completing our understanding.

Researches had been done. Some learned more than others. Information is on the table. Some right, some wrong, but we never know which ones are diamonds. Of course, there are information which is not on table.

There is a possibility that Billshurv will come to visit me in a few months. If he does, I'm sure it will be an eye opener for him. He can see for himself that changing low order harmonic distortion a few dB down around -120dB and buried in noise can be audible even by him under some circumstances.

How do you know that you didn't change other variables too?

So, assuming for the moment what I have observed can be verified and replicated, then what? We are still left with a very vexing set of problems. People can incredibly misjudge the sound of something if it is seen or otherwise known what it is that is being listened to.

You know the problem. Better is a subjective term. I agree with Bill's comments.

However, Foobar ABX and ABX in general is not the most sensitive test for determining very low levels of audibility, IMHO.

It is an eye opener for me. It makes a lot of things certain. Most of my 'knowledge' about how things sounded are like guesses. In one or two experience i thought a certain resistor sounded thin. An ABX usually will make me able to see deeper into the sound character. For the first time i know that i don't guess.
 
Yep. I used to call this the "damn, vocals are still too loud" experience. ;-)
I call it "is it still sounding realistic"

But there are definitely different types of listening even within the same room from your listening chair - one is forensic listening for particular details & the other is more macro listening - does it engage, does it fatigue, does it draw me in, do I have a better connection to the music

You know all the pseudo stuff that PMA doesn't understand & does hit & run posts
 
There seem to be two types of people on audio forums - those who desire "proof" of something & those who research/try for themselves those things which many people (or few trusted people) report an audible & worthwhile improvement
then there is a third type like me, constantly confused at the never ending seesaw debates about what really is or isn't important......it's time for scotch and contemplation...and more scotch....
 
i wonder if listened to a sound clip of Scottjoplin saying what he posted if i could detect the undertone of sarcasm? (sorry the scotch is kicking in but thought that would fit in a thread about auditory perception)

Indeed, if we were all in a room together I've no doubt the conversation would be less sarcastic especially if there was scotch in plentiful supply although he's from Wales & probably doesn't drink that scotch from the north
 
Just need to point out that noise floor modulation is well known from the days of tube circuits and carbon comp resistors where the excess noise (1/f) was heavily modulated by the DC current.
And to repeat myself I'm not that interested in going through the effort of hearing very subtle differences without stating preference, I suspect without any coaching or applied bias many still might prefer the $300 DAC to the $3000 DAC (for instance. or of course have no preference).
Tubes and CC resistors make for gross (strongly audible) example of excess noise....modern passives are much quieter but excess noise is still evident.
There are many factors that differentiate the $300/$3000 examples....and indeed the $300 version may have NFM that is less disagreeable sounding wrt the $3k item.
......I'm of the opinion that NFM ultimately boils down to the signal ground (reference) not being stable (exquisitely stable when devices that handle very low level signals). This can obviously arise from many different causes - probably too many to itemize here but PS rock solid stability is a big factor; ensuring PS ground returns never mix with signal ground returns.

This hopefully gives people more to chew on than just auditory perception but I have more to say about NFM & auditory perception
Hi Merrill.
Yes, stability of earth referencing points is critical.... ie ground plane currents must be non intermodulating, at DC and importantly at RF.
That said, earth planes are in themselves noisy.
Ime placing a small amount of my 'goop' anywhere on an earth plane or at the earth pin connection of input/output connectors alters the subjective nature/subjective level/subjective sound of the NF/NFM....something more to chew on lol.


Dan.
 
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