Caveat Emptor:
If you have very advanced understanding of audio electronics, then this post may not be for you, but you are very welcome to read it anyway. Perhaps you will get a good laugh 🙂
"Hello, my name is Jonas, and I suffer from Audiophile Angst."
A while ago, I came upon the concept of "Audiophile Angst" in an article by Nelson Pass on his First Watt site, and it has stuck in my mind since then. It is a catchy phrase for sure, but also rang true to me.
Even though I had not heard the term before, I understood right away what he meant.
To me "Audiophile Angst" means something like:
a. To worry or agonize unduly over selection of audio parts and components (often without scientific basis).
b. To worry or agonize over (often highly teoretical) phenomena, that may or may not affect the sound quality.
- If you have a better, or different, definition, then come forth 😉
Today I was reading the article "Practical Mosfet testing for Audio" (2003) by Mr. Pass, which opens with this wonderful paragraph:
"The quality of individual parts is a particular concern to audio “do-it-yourselfers” (henceforth known as DIYers). Many of them lay awake at night agonizing over choices of capacitors, resistors, wires, and so on, in the belief that the characteristics of these passive parts greatly influences the quality of sound passing through the circuit. Maybe so."
Mr. Pass does subtle sarcasm very well, me thinks 😛
It is amusing, but also so true - and that makes it doubly amusing.
I am, of course, writing this post because the concept of "Audiophile Angst" really struck a chord in me.
I'm in the process of collecting parts for my first DIY amplifier builds: I'm simultaneously gathering the bits of pieces to built BA1, BA3-FE, F4 and F6. I will most likely built them in that order, if all goes well 😎
To be generous, I would describe my own knowledge of audio electronics as basic, but fairly broad, and improving. On a scale from 1 to 100 (the latter being Mr. Pass and his equals), I am probably around 4 somewhere, aspiring to get towards 10 within the next few years. In other words, I seeem to know just enough to worry and agonize over component selection, but not enough to know when a given component isn't critical, or it doesn't really matter - when good enough is really good enough.
Take for example transistor matching, which can give rise to some good quality angst. I understand why matching of devices can be important for best results (thanks to diyaudio.com forum and the articles by Mr. Pass), but not quite when it is critical and when it isn't: Must I have absolutely have two matched pairs of 2SJ313 and 2SK2013 for BA3, or will it sound just as good with random Mosfets? And for F4, should I use IRFP9140 instead of 9240 together with IRFP240, as I have read this gives a better matching of transconductance? - But if that is so, why didn't Nelson Pass just use the 9140?? And how close a matching is really sufficient? A lot to worry about.. 😕
Regarding capacitors the good news is, that I have more or less gotten over electrolytic angst for power supplies, having decided (after much research) that is doesn't matter which cap I use - as long as it is a quality component with correct rating. What a relief! That still leaves a lot of potential angst over film caps though: Are there really any differences between good polyprop caps? Would I be able to tell the difference between the cheap 400vdc model and the 20x more expensive 1200vdc silver/oil something? (Again, just a rhetorical question..) I will probably end up getting the "regular" 400vdc poly, and then every time I listen to music, I will be wondering if I am missing out on something, since I don't have the boutique super caps
And what about resistors? Is there really any reason to use Dale mil-spec? And must it then be the big fat RN60 model? OMG, what if I "just" use RN55 type, will I somehow lose a little bit of sound quality?! Not to mention if I used Yageo resistors or plain no-name (blasphemy!), would sound even come out of the speakers??!! 😱😀
Deep down I know the correct answer to most of these questions, namely: Don't worry about it, it will be fine either way!
But even so, I feel the strong pull of "the dark side", often causing me to agonize over simple passive component choices, and spend hours searching Mouser, Digikey etc, looking for the perfect components, that will provide audio perfection and (hopefully) give me peace of mind. (Now if could just find that perfect 3w 1% wirewound resistor, I could sleep well tonight! 😀).
Some may now be thinking, why not just try for yourself, and see what sounds best? Test different caps, transistors, resistors etc in the same amplifier, and listen to any differences. Well, my answer is, that this is impractical at best: Listening tests are extremely time consuming, and subtle differences are easily missed. And to do even half-way objectice and correct ABX testing, I would have to build two identical amps, swap one component at a time, find a way to switch blind (to avoid expectation bias), match levels, and then perform each test minimum 20 times, to get a statistically valid result. It is just not possible to do all this in real life - not for me in any case. That is why I would like to eliminate as many uncertainties in each construction as possible from the start. So I can just compare e.g. a solidly built B3-F4 combo to my old SAE or Luxman gear, and focus on having fun with that type of testing. But testing and comparing many individual component choices is too much 🙁
To be honest, I think many are affected much worse than me. I once bought a used amplifier from a gentleman, who explained to me, that he had color coded his entire CD collection (many!) with little round stickers, to indicate which phono cable sounded best with that particular CD. I think he had 4 sets of cables he swapped around, all pretty expensive, some silver. When I suggested, that the electrical and objective differences between phono cables of good basic construction were negligible at best, and I myself had actually never been able to hear any differences, he was aghast! 😱
I imagine he had spent many sleepless hours agonizing over phono cables - not to mention speaker cables. (I don't mean to start a debate on cables, as I do realize some have strong feelings on the subject..). Interestingly enough, he had basically no knowledge of electronics, and had (AFAIK) never had a look inside any of his (mid-level) amps or CD-players. If he had, he would likely have been stunned to se the quality of wiring and connections used there.. 🙄
There may be numerous causes for Audiophile Angst, but I can think of two good ones:
a. Concern that my hifi-system/amplifer/etc will not sound as good as it could/should.
b. Concern that a DIY project will not yield the expected results, causing precious time and money to be wasted.
Both concerns has a lot to do with uncertainty, or lack of knowledge/understanding.
Striving for perfection can be hard, especially if perfection is unobtainable...
This brings me to a little theory I have:
The level of Audiophile Angst is inversely related to the level of electronics knowledge and experience.
As Mr. Pass has stated a few times: "..we don’t get too excited about it"
What do you think? 🙂
If you have very advanced understanding of audio electronics, then this post may not be for you, but you are very welcome to read it anyway. Perhaps you will get a good laugh 🙂
"Hello, my name is Jonas, and I suffer from Audiophile Angst."
A while ago, I came upon the concept of "Audiophile Angst" in an article by Nelson Pass on his First Watt site, and it has stuck in my mind since then. It is a catchy phrase for sure, but also rang true to me.
Even though I had not heard the term before, I understood right away what he meant.
To me "Audiophile Angst" means something like:
a. To worry or agonize unduly over selection of audio parts and components (often without scientific basis).
b. To worry or agonize over (often highly teoretical) phenomena, that may or may not affect the sound quality.
- If you have a better, or different, definition, then come forth 😉
Today I was reading the article "Practical Mosfet testing for Audio" (2003) by Mr. Pass, which opens with this wonderful paragraph:
"The quality of individual parts is a particular concern to audio “do-it-yourselfers” (henceforth known as DIYers). Many of them lay awake at night agonizing over choices of capacitors, resistors, wires, and so on, in the belief that the characteristics of these passive parts greatly influences the quality of sound passing through the circuit. Maybe so."
Mr. Pass does subtle sarcasm very well, me thinks 😛
It is amusing, but also so true - and that makes it doubly amusing.
I am, of course, writing this post because the concept of "Audiophile Angst" really struck a chord in me.
I'm in the process of collecting parts for my first DIY amplifier builds: I'm simultaneously gathering the bits of pieces to built BA1, BA3-FE, F4 and F6. I will most likely built them in that order, if all goes well 😎
To be generous, I would describe my own knowledge of audio electronics as basic, but fairly broad, and improving. On a scale from 1 to 100 (the latter being Mr. Pass and his equals), I am probably around 4 somewhere, aspiring to get towards 10 within the next few years. In other words, I seeem to know just enough to worry and agonize over component selection, but not enough to know when a given component isn't critical, or it doesn't really matter - when good enough is really good enough.
Take for example transistor matching, which can give rise to some good quality angst. I understand why matching of devices can be important for best results (thanks to diyaudio.com forum and the articles by Mr. Pass), but not quite when it is critical and when it isn't: Must I have absolutely have two matched pairs of 2SJ313 and 2SK2013 for BA3, or will it sound just as good with random Mosfets? And for F4, should I use IRFP9140 instead of 9240 together with IRFP240, as I have read this gives a better matching of transconductance? - But if that is so, why didn't Nelson Pass just use the 9140?? And how close a matching is really sufficient? A lot to worry about.. 😕
Regarding capacitors the good news is, that I have more or less gotten over electrolytic angst for power supplies, having decided (after much research) that is doesn't matter which cap I use - as long as it is a quality component with correct rating. What a relief! That still leaves a lot of potential angst over film caps though: Are there really any differences between good polyprop caps? Would I be able to tell the difference between the cheap 400vdc model and the 20x more expensive 1200vdc silver/oil something? (Again, just a rhetorical question..) I will probably end up getting the "regular" 400vdc poly, and then every time I listen to music, I will be wondering if I am missing out on something, since I don't have the boutique super caps
And what about resistors? Is there really any reason to use Dale mil-spec? And must it then be the big fat RN60 model? OMG, what if I "just" use RN55 type, will I somehow lose a little bit of sound quality?! Not to mention if I used Yageo resistors or plain no-name (blasphemy!), would sound even come out of the speakers??!! 😱😀
Deep down I know the correct answer to most of these questions, namely: Don't worry about it, it will be fine either way!
But even so, I feel the strong pull of "the dark side", often causing me to agonize over simple passive component choices, and spend hours searching Mouser, Digikey etc, looking for the perfect components, that will provide audio perfection and (hopefully) give me peace of mind. (Now if could just find that perfect 3w 1% wirewound resistor, I could sleep well tonight! 😀).
Some may now be thinking, why not just try for yourself, and see what sounds best? Test different caps, transistors, resistors etc in the same amplifier, and listen to any differences. Well, my answer is, that this is impractical at best: Listening tests are extremely time consuming, and subtle differences are easily missed. And to do even half-way objectice and correct ABX testing, I would have to build two identical amps, swap one component at a time, find a way to switch blind (to avoid expectation bias), match levels, and then perform each test minimum 20 times, to get a statistically valid result. It is just not possible to do all this in real life - not for me in any case. That is why I would like to eliminate as many uncertainties in each construction as possible from the start. So I can just compare e.g. a solidly built B3-F4 combo to my old SAE or Luxman gear, and focus on having fun with that type of testing. But testing and comparing many individual component choices is too much 🙁
To be honest, I think many are affected much worse than me. I once bought a used amplifier from a gentleman, who explained to me, that he had color coded his entire CD collection (many!) with little round stickers, to indicate which phono cable sounded best with that particular CD. I think he had 4 sets of cables he swapped around, all pretty expensive, some silver. When I suggested, that the electrical and objective differences between phono cables of good basic construction were negligible at best, and I myself had actually never been able to hear any differences, he was aghast! 😱
I imagine he had spent many sleepless hours agonizing over phono cables - not to mention speaker cables. (I don't mean to start a debate on cables, as I do realize some have strong feelings on the subject..). Interestingly enough, he had basically no knowledge of electronics, and had (AFAIK) never had a look inside any of his (mid-level) amps or CD-players. If he had, he would likely have been stunned to se the quality of wiring and connections used there.. 🙄
There may be numerous causes for Audiophile Angst, but I can think of two good ones:
a. Concern that my hifi-system/amplifer/etc will not sound as good as it could/should.
b. Concern that a DIY project will not yield the expected results, causing precious time and money to be wasted.
Both concerns has a lot to do with uncertainty, or lack of knowledge/understanding.
Striving for perfection can be hard, especially if perfection is unobtainable...
This brings me to a little theory I have:
The level of Audiophile Angst is inversely related to the level of electronics knowledge and experience.
As Mr. Pass has stated a few times: "..we don’t get too excited about it"
What do you think? 🙂
After agonizing about the values and types of elcos, diodes, snubber, routing, etc... last night I dreamt my latest project, a power supply module, overheating and melting in front of my eyes...
The little round stickers and phono cable made me lol. He must have nightmares about somebody sneaking in and moving all the stickers around.
One element you left out was OCD. I know i suffer from this, if there are four resistors in a circuit doing the same job and one measures slightly differently from the other three, damn.
I know its an illness...
One element you left out was OCD. I know i suffer from this, if there are four resistors in a circuit doing the same job and one measures slightly differently from the other three, damn.
I know its an illness...
Yes I feel ya 😛 Not being entirely OCD free myself, but try I fight it back with logic and reason - not always succesfully though 😀
I am pretty sure many of us socalled "Audiophiles "or hifi-enthusiast (as I prefer) are OCD afflicted and also perfectionists to some level - a tough combo to handle u know
I am very much satisfied with what I assemble from the recycled best(!) parts. I cannot be sleepless as the exotic parts or even good simple parts like Dale non magnetic resistors cannot be(impossible to) purchased.
Gajanan Phadte
Gajanan Phadte
Yes that is true.
I am always on the hunt for dale resistors and Angst stays true, can't disagree.
Gajanan Phadte
I am always on the hunt for dale resistors and Angst stays true, can't disagree.
Gajanan Phadte
I do find the audiophile thing interesting
Playing around with audio is a hobby--just like screwing around with cars, motorcycles and building things. The thing I find funny is how the easiest parts to replace make the "biggest difference". Very little effort, intelligence or skill is required to worship at the alter of audiophiledom. After all, to do anything really tough requires science and that counters the mystic values of the magic cable.
It's not like medicine or the military uses sound waves--so the pudgy bald guy with hair growing out of his ears must be right! Science has not reached the level of precision measuring to exceed a 60 year old with hearing damage...believe it!
Since science can't figure out KHz--imagine if they ever had to do GHz! One day there will be a demand for video to be passed through cables so the much lower demand of audio signals will be solved. I would expect the size of the video/audio cable to be approximately the diameter of a sewer pipe.
Playing around with audio is a hobby--just like screwing around with cars, motorcycles and building things. The thing I find funny is how the easiest parts to replace make the "biggest difference". Very little effort, intelligence or skill is required to worship at the alter of audiophiledom. After all, to do anything really tough requires science and that counters the mystic values of the magic cable.
It's not like medicine or the military uses sound waves--so the pudgy bald guy with hair growing out of his ears must be right! Science has not reached the level of precision measuring to exceed a 60 year old with hearing damage...believe it!
Since science can't figure out KHz--imagine if they ever had to do GHz! One day there will be a demand for video to be passed through cables so the much lower demand of audio signals will be solved. I would expect the size of the video/audio cable to be approximately the diameter of a sewer pipe.
I would suspect most of us get sucked into this hobby by the promise of results comparable to what a well equipped production environment can achieve. Unfortunately, this is a great fiction of a premise because you can't get great results without great measurements and those great measurements are only available to those with great equipment and great knowledge. Parts matching is critical in some circuits and less so in others but where it is critical, your results will have a strong correlation to how well you match everything. I have heard at least one other manufacturer besides Mr. Curl is more than a little cautious about part selection. Charles Hanson of Ayre allegedly measures all his component parasitics. Is it a wonder that Parasound and Ayre are two of the most highly regarded audio equipment manufacturers? Mr. Pass probably has given as much to the DIY community as anyone else I can think of but all of his supersymmetry designs require component matching that would be beyond the ability of the typical DIYer so most who have attempted building any of those projects would be disappointed in what they ended up with. This is not even considering the cost of producing this stuff. Most of us will not have the component cost advantage of a manufacturing house so they may very well end up spending more on their projects than they should. Add to that the great probability that parts used in a particular design may not even be available to you. Indeed, many components used in Mr. Pass designs are no longer available (buyouts of chips from defunct factories) or custom designed (differential chokes used on AX supplies) so the project board that has his blessing which you believe will get you his results will be disadvantaged from the get go. The only people that really benefit from this activity are the ones who head group buys and those fortunate enough to have access to good measurements. Everyone else is better off buying quality manufactured gear at a fair price. The truth of my post will be revealed to you as you travel along your DIY experience.
I'm not so sure about that. People likely have different motivations, but I doubt many start a complicated and very time consuming diy audio project to save money. For myself at least, that was never a part of it. I have just always enjoyed building and fixing stuff, and for years have wanted to learn more about audio electronics. So building amplifiers is for me a learning experience, and something I do simply because I like it 😀
But even so, I naturally want to do the best job possible (for me) and I guess that is where some of the "angst" comes in.. 🙂
I agree that it is tricky to duplicate designs where the parts are not available, or requires very careful matching. But that's ok for me, I like a bit of a challenge. If I need to match parts, I will try to learn how, and get the required equipment. By the time I have built a few amps, I will probably have a small audio lab set up, with scope, FFT, etc 😛
Have you been disappointed by the outcome of your diy projects?
Of course! Not so much today because I'm smarter now but it was a long, painful learning curve that in retrospect I wish I hadn't started. Money wise, I could have bought much better than I built.
You have discovered the difference between what Nelson is willing to state in writing and what he says verbally and semi-privately. Behind the scenes, Nelson's capable of being excited by all these little technical details.
You should learn how to channel your Audiophile Angst so it doesn't deteriorate into full blown Audiophilia Nervosa!
Each time i am tempted to get me top dollar polyprop caps, i remind myself that people have been making good sounding amps waaay before Dales, Blackgates or #insertanyaudiophileangstpartshere were accessible. One thing audiophiles should do first before getting crazy on their budget is to hear themselves how hard it is to differentiate between 0.5% THD and 0.005% THD. Sure better part MAY lower distortion but can you actually hear it? Gosh.. here we go again..
Its all in your head as it flows through our ears...which are all different and react differently to frequency....
A great filter to apply when thinking about parts is to realise that most of the audio production scene (Even the classical) just does not worry about it, and that a couple of hundred 5532 (Any version) raise no eyebrows inside a few tens of thousands of dollars worth of studio console (SSL, Soundcraft, Calrec all big 5532 users).
Same thing with caps, the main thing is to use elcos with enough ripple current rating and a temperature rating that is not going to result in a need to recap in my working life, almost nobody in the studio end gets particularly tweaky (And studio gear is often hammered into distortion to get an effect, one would hope this was not the case in a repro chain).
I well remember seeing an interview with Rupert Neave who commented on his classic preamp design that at the time he was mostly worried about getting a bad rep if it turned out to be unreliable, reliability being FAR more critical then anything else.
Seriously, do it right and architecture is WAY more important then component matching, plenty of great records were made with 5% resistors and 20% caps.
Regards, Dan.
Same thing with caps, the main thing is to use elcos with enough ripple current rating and a temperature rating that is not going to result in a need to recap in my working life, almost nobody in the studio end gets particularly tweaky (And studio gear is often hammered into distortion to get an effect, one would hope this was not the case in a repro chain).
I well remember seeing an interview with Rupert Neave who commented on his classic preamp design that at the time he was mostly worried about getting a bad rep if it turned out to be unreliable, reliability being FAR more critical then anything else.
Seriously, do it right and architecture is WAY more important then component matching, plenty of great records were made with 5% resistors and 20% caps.
Regards, Dan.
For the most part, very sensible comments here 🙂
I wonder if that is a reflection of a high level of (audio) electronics knowledge of the typical diyaudio.com member - if so, that could actually be taken as evidence to support my little theory: "The level of Audiophile Angst is inversely related to the level of electronics knowledge and experience" 😉
Perhaps I should try and make the same post in a more consumer/user-level type forum, and see if it triggers a flood of "angst-ridden" audiophiles (and phools)! 😛
On second thought, it probably wouldn't, as the truly Audiophile Angst-afflicted likely take these matters to seriously to joke about it! 🙄 And of course, real angst is no laughing matter, and can develop to an illness, so no offense intended here..
What I find interesting, and funny, is the so called dissonance between logic/reason and emotions here: Even when I know, that the precise brand or type of (most) resistor/capacitor/wire/etc is very unlikely to make any audible difference, I can still continue to worry about it, and wonder if perhaps I should just spend a bit extra to get those 0.1% non-magnetic, 1200vdc, silk, gold, bla bla bla, components - just to be sure I make the most of the design in question, and don't somehow lose a microscopic bit of sound quality!! 😀 🙄
But for sure, a lot of hifi-guys are much much worse of, worrying over cables and copper purity levels, RCA rodium (whatever) plugs, which spikes to put on their amplifier (lol), and generally getting suckered by the whole snake oil/audiophoolery segment, who primarily seems to be selling fear to the uninformed 🙁 Fearmongers, is what these guys are, or perhaps Angstmongers is more appropriate here! 😉
I wonder if that is a reflection of a high level of (audio) electronics knowledge of the typical diyaudio.com member - if so, that could actually be taken as evidence to support my little theory: "The level of Audiophile Angst is inversely related to the level of electronics knowledge and experience" 😉
Perhaps I should try and make the same post in a more consumer/user-level type forum, and see if it triggers a flood of "angst-ridden" audiophiles (and phools)! 😛
On second thought, it probably wouldn't, as the truly Audiophile Angst-afflicted likely take these matters to seriously to joke about it! 🙄 And of course, real angst is no laughing matter, and can develop to an illness, so no offense intended here..
What I find interesting, and funny, is the so called dissonance between logic/reason and emotions here: Even when I know, that the precise brand or type of (most) resistor/capacitor/wire/etc is very unlikely to make any audible difference, I can still continue to worry about it, and wonder if perhaps I should just spend a bit extra to get those 0.1% non-magnetic, 1200vdc, silk, gold, bla bla bla, components - just to be sure I make the most of the design in question, and don't somehow lose a microscopic bit of sound quality!! 😀 🙄
But for sure, a lot of hifi-guys are much much worse of, worrying over cables and copper purity levels, RCA rodium (whatever) plugs, which spikes to put on their amplifier (lol), and generally getting suckered by the whole snake oil/audiophoolery segment, who primarily seems to be selling fear to the uninformed 🙁 Fearmongers, is what these guys are, or perhaps Angstmongers is more appropriate here! 😉
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