I've read a few threads here discussing AR gear, so I thought I would give my 2 cents on the direction I think they are going. For starters their designers somehow have always thought that more was better, their topologies are very complicated, I know they are very partial to balanced designs, personally I don't think balanced interconnects do anything, unless you have over 10 or 15ft. of cable runs, Then it might become an issue. Seems to me, more has been accomplished with LESS!! than what they have tried to do. They have moved more and more toward solid state designs. They have almost done away with tubes in their preamps, FET front ends w/ a couple of 6H30's in the back end. I mean what is the point. I'll quit!
You mean , you quit buying ARC ? They cater to general public with regular speakers requiring drive and power to come alive and they are quite good and effective at just that. Personally, I don't see any competition for them in this sector, and having opportunity to check out a lot of their gear , the build and quality of the components are very good if not second to none. Where do you find "simple" 100- 300W tube amps?
I've followed the industry for years , and up till now couldn't afford to buy their products. I don't criticize their presentation and quality as much as their philosophy. If solid state engineering is way of of increasing profit margins, and if that's their only concern then they should move in that direction. I think SS devices have their place, even in tube gear, but I thought the whole point of using tubes was to achieve the sound and resolution you could only get with tubes.
As long as people believe tubes are magic, they will keep selling their hybrids. Sure can't quibble about their build quality. If you think they should build all SS, vote by buying a fully solid state from some one else.
Balanced interconnects are another fad as "pro does it, so it must be better" Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. In mega-buck gear, I expect the option. I run almost 40 feet from my preamp. I may put balanced drivers on it, but I don't have any identifiable interference or noise problem with it now. Ya spend ya money wheres ya wants.
PS: ARC "general public?" The general public buys what is on sale this week at Best Buy.
Balanced interconnects are another fad as "pro does it, so it must be better" Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. In mega-buck gear, I expect the option. I run almost 40 feet from my preamp. I may put balanced drivers on it, but I don't have any identifiable interference or noise problem with it now. Ya spend ya money wheres ya wants.
PS: ARC "general public?" The general public buys what is on sale this week at Best Buy.
What they call "magic" is simply the quality which tubes provide and solid state does not. Still you need a speaker which will optimally work with tubes but since most speaker designer are dead mofos who think amplifier doesn't matter the market will rely on oxy-moronic 'SYNERGY' Please note that ARC makes quite decent SS amps also D-amps. The, not so old VS series was all tube very conventional design with all the improvements DIY intelligentsia promotes like CCS and regs on Drivers PSU. Quite simple and effective design if not cheap.
By general public I meant wealthy +50 upper middle class still buying High End at dealers paying more or less retail . Since the big High End brands are doing OK , they must have faithful customers. My friend is an ARC dealer so I know his customer base -doctors , lawyers , musicians (classical ) who made it , also businessmen from local chamber music society , and no , not all of them are deaf and plenty other choices exists for people with money. Having said that , I'm not a fan myself most probably, according to my friend because I'm a villager with a questionable taste😀
By general public I meant wealthy +50 upper middle class still buying High End at dealers paying more or less retail . Since the big High End brands are doing OK , they must have faithful customers. My friend is an ARC dealer so I know his customer base -doctors , lawyers , musicians (classical ) who made it , also businessmen from local chamber music society , and no , not all of them are deaf and plenty other choices exists for people with money. Having said that , I'm not a fan myself most probably, according to my friend because I'm a villager with a questionable taste😀
I've had 2 Audio Research amplifiers, and 3 preamplifiers. Today 1 have one preamplifier. They are beautifully constructed, but overly fussy. Decades ago I built the Dyna ST70 Mod which was predicated upon the D-76.
Another thread discussed measurement of CCS "Z" and someone recalled NP's admonition that a CCS which measures well may not sound great...the opposite of "looks bad, feels good." I think that they have fallen into the trap or beautifully and intricate CCS which sound inhuman.
Another thread discussed measurement of CCS "Z" and someone recalled NP's admonition that a CCS which measures well may not sound great...the opposite of "looks bad, feels good." I think that they have fallen into the trap or beautifully and intricate CCS which sound inhuman.
Limono,
We will just have to disagree. High harmonic distortion is not "magic". 60dB SNR is not magic. It was in 1950. Not now. If the recording engineer and artist wanted me to hear the "magic" sound of tubes, I trust him to have used a tube mic and preramp in the studio. I want to REPRODUCE what the engineer created with the artist. I do not wish to be the composer.
Yes, I have listened to good modern tube stuff. Of them, the Cary OTL mono-blocks were very good. I would take a SS amp from the discount store first.
Now, improvements can be made. I am sure we don't know everything there is about tubes or transformers. Heck, the Chinese $99 wonder I used for a test chassis was better sounding than my big Knight, but the HK 300 was a little better. Manley shows how to clean them up a bit and people like Cary or AR show that modern passive parts and construction help. The end result is far better than they were, but far from modern SS.
Jack,
Yes, this very subject is being discussed elsewhere. I keep asking with no experienced replies how good is good enough, and is linearity more important than overall stiffness? Where a self biased JFET is not as stiff as the diode biased BJT, it is linear to very high frequencies. The feedback pair is not quite as linear, but far stiffer. A BJT/FET cascode thousands of times stiffer, but not great in linearity. Maybe some of the highly experienced designers in the lounge can offer their well founded bias on the subject.
We will just have to disagree. High harmonic distortion is not "magic". 60dB SNR is not magic. It was in 1950. Not now. If the recording engineer and artist wanted me to hear the "magic" sound of tubes, I trust him to have used a tube mic and preramp in the studio. I want to REPRODUCE what the engineer created with the artist. I do not wish to be the composer.
Yes, I have listened to good modern tube stuff. Of them, the Cary OTL mono-blocks were very good. I would take a SS amp from the discount store first.
Now, improvements can be made. I am sure we don't know everything there is about tubes or transformers. Heck, the Chinese $99 wonder I used for a test chassis was better sounding than my big Knight, but the HK 300 was a little better. Manley shows how to clean them up a bit and people like Cary or AR show that modern passive parts and construction help. The end result is far better than they were, but far from modern SS.
Jack,
Yes, this very subject is being discussed elsewhere. I keep asking with no experienced replies how good is good enough, and is linearity more important than overall stiffness? Where a self biased JFET is not as stiff as the diode biased BJT, it is linear to very high frequencies. The feedback pair is not quite as linear, but far stiffer. A BJT/FET cascode thousands of times stiffer, but not great in linearity. Maybe some of the highly experienced designers in the lounge can offer their well founded bias on the subject.
Yes , We will have to disagree. I will take that harmonic distortion and 60dB SNR to have just a glimpse of or shade of the sound of acoustic instruments like I take ugly tomato or an egg from the farm garden instead the one " processed" by industry . I'm positive you would too . As well if you take decent professional SS amp like lets say Hafler transnova 9500 and stack it against older ARC classic 60 which goes for similar money and I play you a record or CD with acoustic instruments on moderately efficient speaker there is simply no chance you'd prefer Hafler or almost any other SS amp as flawed as ARC classic 60 is.(to answer to your example with the amp from discount store) Now, I probably went too far with generalizing about all SS amps and I'm not attached to tubes at all and pains they bring but to people with little money it's still the best technology if one's taste is not corrupted too much. But , I agree that if "universal" device is needed it's hard to beat good SS amp. Porridge for masses it is. Somehow my impression of J-FET devices is "flat and polite" They are equivalent of Poly cones in speaker world based on few examples I heard. Lastly , I put little faith in modern recording engineers and even less in artists they promote so maybe that explains my bias. Rgrds, L
We can agree on the tomato, but an egg is an egg. 🙂
Some of the poly composite cones are getting better so don't discount all of them, just most of them. I have had much better luck with paper and tolerable success with a few aluminum cones.
Here is a test, pick up a copy of Julian Bream plays Segovia and Alvarez and tell me how easily you can differentiate the nylon from steel strings. No tube amp has passed that test to my ears. Only a few SS have. Then the tough test my wife does. He feels actual pain on horn crescendo's like on The King James Version. Better speakers and better SS amp solved the problem. My speakers and John's amps.
Some of the poly composite cones are getting better so don't discount all of them, just most of them. I have had much better luck with paper and tolerable success with a few aluminum cones.
Here is a test, pick up a copy of Julian Bream plays Segovia and Alvarez and tell me how easily you can differentiate the nylon from steel strings. No tube amp has passed that test to my ears. Only a few SS have. Then the tough test my wife does. He feels actual pain on horn crescendo's like on The King James Version. Better speakers and better SS amp solved the problem. My speakers and John's amps.
..My speakers and John's amps..
I hear you 🙂 Hmm, so what kind of budgetary investment aforementioned equipment require ? As I get older I tend not to discount anything. I have very pleasant memories of Proac Response 2 with scanspeak poly cones also for another reasons Spendor SP2 and LS3/5a, and Celestion SL600. Somehow for whatever reasons Harbeth new cones does not sound right whenever I have to chance to hear it but it's probably because I never had them at home. I also like paper cones best, and preferably old ones 🙂. Would really like to get "affordable" SS amp and forget the tube chores altogether. Probably I will embarrass myself for saying that but I was quite taken by Bedini 100/100 some years ago. The build quality of that amp was not stellar but the sound had some very pleasant qualities.
I hear you 🙂 Hmm, so what kind of budgetary investment aforementioned equipment require ? As I get older I tend not to discount anything. I have very pleasant memories of Proac Response 2 with scanspeak poly cones also for another reasons Spendor SP2 and LS3/5a, and Celestion SL600. Somehow for whatever reasons Harbeth new cones does not sound right whenever I have to chance to hear it but it's probably because I never had them at home. I also like paper cones best, and preferably old ones 🙂. Would really like to get "affordable" SS amp and forget the tube chores altogether. Probably I will embarrass myself for saying that but I was quite taken by Bedini 100/100 some years ago. The build quality of that amp was not stellar but the sound had some very pleasant qualities.
My best speakers to date are Seas reed paper/al domes with Peerless XXLS subs. I drive both sets with HCA 1200's. 1200 Mk II's are quite reasonable used. One could always buy a new "Classic" or Halo. I have been told the Outlaws are pretty good, though I was not impressed with their preamp. I keep watching for a Nak PA-5 I can afford. Just missed a Forte'. Acrus and Aragon come up every now and again, but I think the price is high. I guess the name is too good. Kind like why we can't touch a Krell, Levinson, Threshold, or even, gasp, stooping for a SS Mac. My modified Hafler is easier to listen too than my Creek, so it is going to be replaced. (with my "Reasonable" design I expect. Just no longer as enamored with the small British amps, though I have yet to spend any time with a Naim.
How about a First Watt or it's evolved contemporaries?
I had the Bedini home for a few days, along with about a dozen others at that time. I wound up buying a B&K 140. I had Ditton 44's back then with Seas tweeters. If I remember, I had two used Trans-Nova's home for test. The sound was nice, but the transformers hummed right along with the music.
My next speaker build I want to look into the Trans-Lab tweeters, Seas or Santori paper mid-woof. Probably bi-amp this time and put my spare HCA 75 back in use. Several folks, Linkwitz among them, have been impressed with the woven poly cones from Seas.
How about a First Watt or it's evolved contemporaries?
I had the Bedini home for a few days, along with about a dozen others at that time. I wound up buying a B&K 140. I had Ditton 44's back then with Seas tweeters. If I remember, I had two used Trans-Nova's home for test. The sound was nice, but the transformers hummed right along with the music.
My next speaker build I want to look into the Trans-Lab tweeters, Seas or Santori paper mid-woof. Probably bi-amp this time and put my spare HCA 75 back in use. Several folks, Linkwitz among them, have been impressed with the woven poly cones from Seas.
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