myhrrhleine said:
Certainly if you hear this with a sweep you know you have
encountered a problem, however a sweep won't reveal some
of the serious phase shifts which are not accompanied by
amplitude variation.
For example, in developing crossovers, it is very common to have
a woofer/midrange transition measure flat on a frequency
response curve, only to have an awful audio result.
If the phase of the woofer and mid aren't reasonably aligned at
the crossover point, a transient attack can be robbed of its
impact, and the whole thing ends up sounding muddy.
john curl said:
There is mass-fi for those who hear no difference.
Or don't care.
I freely admit there are times I don't care.
There are times I'm happy with the portable boom box I paid $30.00 for.
and then there are times when it does matter.
That the masses don't hear or possibly don't care about 'coil sound' doesn't mean that there is none.
Personally, I'm glad it was pointed out
Assuming the amp wouldn't distort without the output coil, I believe many people here could hear the difference. The problem is separating the mechanism that cause audible degradation of voice coils, since there are at least 2 obvious mechanism, frequency response and phase shift. Other effect is subtler to rationalize but it's there.
PMA said:
No doubt it is a reality check Pavel, and if it sounds bad then we must check where we screwed up or forgot in our measurements.
Then there is the risk of somehow not being willing or able to discern when listening, so one must be healthily wary anyway.
From the subsequent posts it is clear that we are all well aware about how far we are currently from perfect reproduction yet this in no way means our efforts are useless, on the contrary yield lots of joy and fun.
Rodolfo
Nelson Pass said:
Certainly if you hear this with a sweep you know you have
encountered a problem, however a sweep won't reveal some
of the serious phase shifts which are not accompanied by
amplitude variation.
For example, in developing crossovers, it is very common to have
a woofer/midrange transition measure flat on a frequency
response curve, only to have an awful audio result.
If the phase of the woofer and mid aren't reasonably aligned at
the crossover point, a transient attack can be robbed of its
impact, and the whole thing ends up sounding muddy.
I agree.
I was just simplifying..
I used the sweep in the '70s for clues.
That was before I built TDS/TEF measuring equipment.
Amazing what we can hear when we know what to listen for.
OK - thanks
Only I wonder if one sits in a concert hall in the good seats - lets say 20 meters from the conductor - I wonder to what extent the sound is rolled off in the high frequencies, and then again how much if one is 40 meters away
...and I also wonder what network on an amp o/p would truly reflect this roll off.
what I'm getting around to is this:
Is the effect of an o/p coil on an amp any worse than moving back a few rows in a concert hall or does it have some unpleasant effect that is unnatural and would never be replicated in the acoustic world ?
Only I wonder if one sits in a concert hall in the good seats - lets say 20 meters from the conductor - I wonder to what extent the sound is rolled off in the high frequencies, and then again how much if one is 40 meters away
...and I also wonder what network on an amp o/p would truly reflect this roll off.
what I'm getting around to is this:
Is the effect of an o/p coil on an amp any worse than moving back a few rows in a concert hall or does it have some unpleasant effect that is unnatural and would never be replicated in the acoustic world ?
We cannot compare attending live concert to auditioning home systems.
In live concert, at least there are 2 senses that are being excited, the ears AND the eyes. This gives more impact to the brain (our feeling) than if it is only the ears like in auditioning home systems.
You can try to attend live concert with your eyes wrapped with black cloth all the time from the beginning to the end, you will not be so excited like usual.
In live concert, at least there are 2 senses that are being excited, the ears AND the eyes. This gives more impact to the brain (our feeling) than if it is only the ears like in auditioning home systems.
You can try to attend live concert with your eyes wrapped with black cloth all the time from the beginning to the end, you will not be so excited like usual.
Beg to differ with you on this - When I have had the great pleasure of hearing a truly great musician like Mitsuko Uchida playing live it's my ears that transport me - perhaps the feeling in the room helps.
but never-the-less does anyone know the answer this question
What network would represent air ?
is it much different from a coil and some capacitance ?
but never-the-less does anyone know the answer this question
What network would represent air ?
is it much different from a coil and some capacitance ?
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