Not the same. Bass horns do not seem to suffer what treble horns do. Paging Dr. Geddes I know this is so, but I am not about to jump in here.
I have no data on LF horns, never built one, never used one, never tested one, so I don't have the same strength of conviction about audibility of distortion. I am of the belief that LF horns are a waste of time (building them,) space (they are huge,) and cost (materials.) Even Keele pointed out that LF horns are the least effective use of space of any speaker enclosure.
I use waveguides for control of directivity, that's just about all. The efficiency gain is nice, but not a major draw for home use. But LF horns just do not have any effect on directivity and simply put just don't do much at all. As Bill G. points out, unless they are in a corner they don't work well. But then putting any source in a corner is just about as effective.
The solution to LFs in small rooms is distributed subs, most effectively close box. This works so well that anyone using a LF horn is just not up to date on what works well and what doesn't.
Pro use may be different, but not that much.
I use waveguides for control of directivity, that's just about all. The efficiency gain is nice, but not a major draw for home use. But LF horns just do not have any effect on directivity and simply put just don't do much at all. As Bill G. points out, unless they are in a corner they don't work well. But then putting any source in a corner is just about as effective.
The solution to LFs in small rooms is distributed subs, most effectively close box. This works so well that anyone using a LF horn is just not up to date on what works well and what doesn't.
Pro use may be different, but not that much.
Pretty negative about LF horns having never built or used one. They have many advantages and when folded produce bass that a sealed box can't touch. Again, cone excursion is tiny so distortion is very very low. 0.3% THD at 100dB at 50Hz.
LF horns never have much of a compression ratio so the cone excursion effect is minimal. I have modeled lots of LF horns, enough to know that they don't work very well. They are too small to do much at all. Multiple subs also limits cone excursion, probably much more than a horn for a given space requirement - a seriously important aspect for small rooms.
I recall back in the 60's "Audio" used to run a story every couple of years about someone who built a bass horn "shed" adjacent to their house with one (outside) wall of the listening room removed to become the mouth. Sometimes there was a free-standing fire pit in the middle. I always imagined decorating one with stalactites and stalagmites. I can't recall if it was an "April issue" thing. Not sure how one would have time-aligned it (we didn't have digital delay back then), clearly the concept has "issues" (along with no point). 🙄
only problem with muti sub approach whether PA or home use is the subs take up real estate where the audience/homeowners live.
so is available space to be sacrificed for performance,and in that context is making room for bass horns really any different?
so is available space to be sacrificed for performance,and in that context is making room for bass horns really any different?
None of my subs are in room "real estate" and there is no reason that they should be. Only one of the three is even visible (but even that is tucked into a non-useful corner) and all three take up less space than 1/2 of a single bass horn. Your argument just doesn't hold water.
i may be wrong but i think most would assume system components would occupy the same space, no?
http://www.cieri.net/Documenti/JBL/Technical%20Notes/JBL%20Technical%20Note%20-%20Vol.1,%20No.8.pdf
Leo Beranek, Pages 79-83
https://archive.org/details/acousticmeasurem00inbera
Thuras, Jenkins, O’Neil paper
https://archive.org/stream/bstj14-1-159#page/n0/mode/2up
George
I'm not a fan of the distributed sub for serious listening, but can say with certainty that they don't take up much room. They don't get in the way. A bass horn? That has a footprint.
Combo boxes can work well. A BR enclosure with a waveguide in front of the woofer does some good things.
Combo boxes can work well. A BR enclosure with a waveguide in front of the woofer does some good things.
Bass front loaded horns don't need compression to work - it's the almost perfect impedance matching of the cone movement to the air mass that makes them efficient vs a direct radiator trying to pump a room full of air. I have modeled thousands of bass horns and built many - they produce the cleanest, most distortion free, accurate bass as far as I know of. Your view that they don't work or a waste of time is simply your opinion. I just want to make sure folks don't go away from this thread taking your expert opinion as fact - because it's simply not the case. Sure, they take more volume than a sealed cube driven by a 1kW amp. But for pure performance, dynamics, clean sound - you can't beat a properly designed FLH sub. Have you compared distortion from a sealed box like that versus a FLH for same SPL?
Oddly enough, The Khorn woofer is not that big! There may be no money in them, but man oh man is there a difference in midbass/bass realism in Khorn style corner woofers and direct radiator woofers!!! So much so that you damn near want to puke moving between them. The difference, unlike the difference between
top end horns vs. direct radiators is not even subtle. Horrifying different!
top end horns vs. direct radiators is not even subtle. Horrifying different!
Doc Geddes, have you ever spent quality time with a Khorn woofer? Like in your listening space properly in corners? It takes about a year to get over the grief and be able to stomach anything less. Real distortiin free, room node free bass to 35 will slay you.
MOAS
Large excursions of subwoofer (direct radiator) moving systems under servo control produce less distortion when reproducing deep bass signals (16-32 Hz) than that of a domestic bass horn that can only produce equivalent levels several octaves higher (beginning at say 40 Hz). For deep base from a horn, ask the army to play their MOAS for you. WHG
Large excursions of subwoofer (direct radiator) moving systems under servo control produce less distortion when reproducing deep bass signals (16-32 Hz) than that of a domestic bass horn that can only produce equivalent levels several octaves higher (beginning at say 40 Hz). For deep base from a horn, ask the army to play their MOAS for you. WHG
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