You are dead wrong about those Mackies they do not sound like a bad horn speaker a all. In fact great speaker in general.
Sort of thing that gets horns a bad rep is the typical ear-piercing compact active plastic Disco speaker up on a tripod, who's main strength is it fits in a small van.
Here's some thumbs of a nice three way design by our late moderator tinitus, aka Lars Dyreborg:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147632-classic-monitor-designs-11.html
For reasons I don't understand, Lars put a considerable ca. 10dB downward slope on the frequency response when tuning by ear. The ring-radiator Vifa XT-19 waveguide is elliptical cross-section which might average out half-wavelength artefacts. But what strikes me is how like one of Earl's designs the mid/treble is. Does it just need some foam? 🙂
I suppose so in the USA. They were certainly around in the 70s and 80s shows in Asia and Europe. But you're right that even then, there were a lot of people who did not believe horns could be hi-fi. I know I was taken by surprise! It must have been the American school of hi-fi that had influenced me, as well as other horn detractors. I was told flat out in the 1970s that all the best speakers are low efficiency. Of course that was someone selling Magnepan - Magneplanar with Audio Research amps. 😉
I just want those who are new to horns to know that a lot of hard work and research was being done on horns and reducing distortions, sometimes just on a hobbyist level, in Japan and Europe 40 years ago or more. There was Mr. Iwata, the Onken company, GOTO, ALE and many others working on improving horn designs that originated in the USA. It took a few decades to cross back over to North America.
That is surprisingly true. Yes, you can hear the plastic cab a little. But that's the woofer, not the horn. Around here they are often used in what we call the "Hawaiian Trio"* at small concerts and Luau. They sound really good, if not overdriven. I even started a thread about it years back.
I'm quite sure that if you took these or some of the EAW K-series in disguise to one of the big hi-fi shows, they would be very well received. As long as the punters couldn't see them, they'd love them.
*(Hawaiian Trio: A group of approximately 2-6 musicians/singers playing mostly acoustic Hawaiian music.)
I have always believed that all audio shows should have the speakers hidden. That would make things much more rational. I almost did that with mine.
QSC also makes PA speakers that qualify as hifi. A friend (after hearing my horns) replaced his Martin Logan electrostats with biamped horn /powered 12's
Another friend bought some JBL powered dual 12's horns that replaced his VMPS "super ribbons" - I haven't heard those yet
It's a revolution I tell ya 😀
IMO there is nothing else that compares to a well designed waveguide. It has everything: power to spare, no thermal issues, well controlled directivity, smooth response; downside is a far more difficult crossover.
I once heard a horn system that was awful. He was using a single cap (gold of course) in series with his horns - you know the minimum parts idea - the sound was horrendous. He didn't like my waveguides much either. Just goes to show that it is all what you get used to.
I have only ever had horns/waveguides, but I was open minded enough to realize that traditional horns did have some serious problems. They had their advantages, and those I wanted to keep, but they really had their problems as well. Solve the problems and keep the advantages and there isn't anything else that is going to beat them.
I once heard a horn system that was awful. He was using a single cap (gold of course) in series with his horns - you know the minimum parts idea - the sound was horrendous. He didn't like my waveguides much either. Just goes to show that it is all what you get used to.
I have only ever had horns/waveguides, but I was open minded enough to realize that traditional horns did have some serious problems. They had their advantages, and those I wanted to keep, but they really had their problems as well. Solve the problems and keep the advantages and there isn't anything else that is going to beat them.
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*sigh*. I'm feeling forced to add my bit. I'm 68, grew up with an original Altec VOT in the living room. DC power supply, rosin-filled horn and all.
Later when I went into the Audio business, we have a pair of "modern" A7s in one sound room. And a pair of K-horns in the other sound room. Neither was up to that old system, nor up to Magneplanars, etc at the time, mid 1970s.
I know horns can sound good. I've heard good ones. K-horns were not good, and the A-7s were horrible.
Later when I went into the Audio business, we have a pair of "modern" A7s in one sound room. And a pair of K-horns in the other sound room. Neither was up to that old system, nor up to Magneplanars, etc at the time, mid 1970s.
I know horns can sound good. I've heard good ones. K-horns were not good, and the A-7s were horrible.
I imagine something like this may suite an audio business guy more
Reference Monitor System - Loudspeakers - Products - Cinema - QSC
I'm with you - never liked Khorns or A7's enough to keep.
here's the first horn/waveguide driven by a cone i remember hearing.
the build quality and components used is producing these where not the greatest but the mid quality and coverage was superb. it was at a NAMM show in Toronto back in the early eighties
Ross Hurricane 800W - Wikizic France
the fellow demo'ing them was the gentleman who designed the mid.
the build quality and components used is producing these where not the greatest but the mid quality and coverage was superb. it was at a NAMM show in Toronto back in the early eighties
Ross Hurricane 800W - Wikizic France
the fellow demo'ing them was the gentleman who designed the mid.
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I think that those were the systems that gave horns a bad name. The JBL monitors like the 4430 (which I had for at least 10 years) also fits this description. It was precisely the horn problems of the 4430 that I wanted to fix. Now a decade later, I can't understand how I ever tolerated the 4430s. But again, you can get used to some pretty bad stuff.
I've owned JBL S7, S8, S8R, then a HeathKit implementation of the A7, then the 4430s (my 4430s were hand selected by John Eargle as a promotion from JBL to Ford on signing an agreement), and now Summas (soon to be NS-15s.) Every step was an improvement along the way. This is why I just don't get the nostalgia trend - to me speakers have only ever gotten better and better.
Earl, I'm really hoping to agree with you. My listening environment doesn't currently welcome horn systems and has 20-year old mini-monitors and 10-year old subs. It's actually pretty nice, but I'm hoping to so something more modern soon....
I spent some years insisting to myself that my k-horns sounded good. Eventually had to admit that, as impressive as the bass could be, the midrange was absolutely horrible and the treble not much better. Kept me off horns (and waveguides) for quite a while after that.
With much of audiophile 'wisdom' that exists, one does need to keep in mind that the only actual qualification for getting known as a hifi guru is to be opinionated!
With much of audiophile 'wisdom' that exists, one does need to keep in mind that the only actual qualification for getting known as a hifi guru is to be opinionated!
Totally agree with that. I wasn't all that impressed with the bass out of the k-horns either. Yeah, it was loud, but not particularly deep.... We had some Infinity Server-Statics with the 18" servo sub back then.
No Surprise Here
The only way to get bass from a horn, at home, is to use room corner as the continuation of an otherwise acoustically too-small horn. The EV Pat IV (a Klipsch derivative design) was the only corner horn that came close to filling the deep bass mission. However, for best results, a brute force method that deploys multiple subs in a acoustically large room appears to be the best approach available today. At present I find that several strategically placed units with servo-controlled, large displacement drivers, deliver superior results in reproducing the first two octaves of music as well as cinematic sound effects. Reproducing the next few octaves above this, where the ear is most sensitive, is where loudspeaker design challenges remain. PKW's Jubilee addressed this issue; but, still no deep base. Above this the only issue that remains is maintaining a frequency independent radiation pattern. Here, use of 3D printing technology to produce an acoustic lens of superior geometry holds the greatest promise for improvement over what now exists. WHG
The only way to get bass from a horn, at home, is to use room corner as the continuation of an otherwise acoustically too-small horn. The EV Pat IV (a Klipsch derivative design) was the only corner horn that came close to filling the deep bass mission. However, for best results, a brute force method that deploys multiple subs in a acoustically large room appears to be the best approach available today. At present I find that several strategically placed units with servo-controlled, large displacement drivers, deliver superior results in reproducing the first two octaves of music as well as cinematic sound effects. Reproducing the next few octaves above this, where the ear is most sensitive, is where loudspeaker design challenges remain. PKW's Jubilee addressed this issue; but, still no deep base. Above this the only issue that remains is maintaining a frequency independent radiation pattern. Here, use of 3D printing technology to produce an acoustic lens of superior geometry holds the greatest promise for improvement over what now exists. WHG
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I very much doubt that anything but a khorn and it's ilk using the room corner is going to come close to giving you anything like real bass. I will go further put a good large horn, any one of maybe 10 or so available high quality compression drivers and a computer designed crossover and you will be close to all that can be done in a room at home. You can't replace khorn corner bass, you can upgrade the rest of the khorn but not the bass bin, except by unfolding it. Now we get to the crux. Others are smaller. Inferior but smaller.
I've rubbed elbows with Dr. Bruce Edgar of and on for some 25 years and by doing so I've learned that having a horn firing into the floor may produce clean, low and placement insensitive base i.e. no need for corner placement. Another advantage of a floor firing horn is that it allows one to significantly reduce the size of the horn because the area along the perimeter of the horn and the floor form the mouth.
I think that would be super cool, but audio shows aren't about rational. They are about passion.
Ooops! Wrong 3 letters. I meant QSC. The K series. (thanks) Plastic powered speakers but really nicely done. I would not mind a pair as a living room system. And compared to what so many Hi-Fi speakers sell for, they are a steal.
Yeah, but at least they sound big and dynamic. But not great. Having gotten spoiled on highly modified A-5s, I was shocked at how bad the A-7 sounded when I bought pair.
But it doesn't take a lot of work to make them much better sounding. Some bracing, a smaller port and a decent crossover will go a long way.
Earl, I've also heard "1 cap" horn systems and can say they are certainly, um, "lively." That's as polite as I can get. Rip your ears off - is more honest. I don't know how people can like that screechy stuff. 😕
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