I have 2 ATC SM75-150S and 4 TAD TL-1601a. I run a studio and was wondering whether to build my own speaker with these drivers or sell the drivers and buy some Genelec 8351s which Ive had my eye on and would integrate well with surround sound glm Genelec system.
If I was to build I have some questions :
1. How hard would the build be for a beginner? I have advanced sound engineering skills ( I have ran a studio for over 20 years and can do things like pseudo anechoic measurements etc) and rudimentary carpentry skills but never built a speaker.
2. Are there any designs for the cabs for a project like this? (I would love to stick them in a tree trunk - bad idea ?)
3. What tweeters would be good with these (budget if poss)
4. Is there a ready-made crossover available for these?
5. What amplifications is going to be needed? I am not into snake-oil - I just want an amp that will do the job
tx
If I was to build I have some questions :
1. How hard would the build be for a beginner? I have advanced sound engineering skills ( I have ran a studio for over 20 years and can do things like pseudo anechoic measurements etc) and rudimentary carpentry skills but never built a speaker.
2. Are there any designs for the cabs for a project like this? (I would love to stick them in a tree trunk - bad idea ?)
3. What tweeters would be good with these (budget if poss)
4. Is there a ready-made crossover available for these?
5. What amplifications is going to be needed? I am not into snake-oil - I just want an amp that will do the job
tx
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Those are a great set of drivers but they won't sound as good as a set of entry level two-ways without some solid understanding of speaker design and acoustics.
Your best bet would be to sell them or contract someone local to you to build or consult you in the design process.
Your best bet would be to sell them or contract someone local to you to build or consult you in the design process.
There are several people buiding custom projects. If you are located in UK, I would definitely contact Tony Gee from humblehomemadehifi and talk with him. His projects are getting lots of praise, but if you really want studio quality monitor, I woul firstly talk whether he can design the ruler flat speakers.
Please take in mind, that studio monitors are designed to work as such, and there are differences between them and audiophile speakers.
I do not know what is your final goal, to have a speakers to listen or monitors, but if the latter, I would follow advice of purchasing Genelecs.
There are good cheap tweeters like Vifa XT25, Seas 27TBFCG etc, but they are no match to the other speakers that you have.
Take in mind also, as written above my post, that design is everything. If you will look closely, you will see that there are studio monitors costing thousands of dollars, using mid-range drivers(like Vifa NE), which still have very high performance btw.
Crossover is king, and until you will learn the basics, you will loose a lot of time, money and effort, which you could spend on your primary studio job and earn money to get hi-end Genelecs and know what you have, instead of blindshooting, which DIY to some extent always it.
Thanks guys - so its quite an involved process eh ... thought it would be Ive always wanted to build my own set of speakers but perhaps its better just to sell them. Ill contact Tony Gee and see what he says. BTW Kapelli - I had my first studio job decades ago! I mainly work as a sound artist and designer - but I can do a fair amount of technical stuff and am quite good with software such as rew - which I could use to take pseudoanechoic measurements and am a quick study.... I could conceivably spend a lot of time on this - money is a different matter - what sort of tweeters do you think would "do" for these drivers without spending thousands ? I was hoping there might be a "pre built crossover" I could use - I draw the line at me doing a lot of soldering - I can do a bit of soldering but Im not great at it - I hate it actually. So I could solder the speaker wires to a crossover - but Im not going to be messing around swapping caps out etc
I already have some smaller generlecs (8330 and 7350 sub) which are great but I would rather like to use them as satellites in my surround system and use the 8351 a sky mains) I also have some PMCs , some Kefs and some Yamaha ns10s by the way which ar not particularly flat. ITs not just a flat response that matters, in fact that's not even the most important thing for monitoring (withing reason) its actually a very fast time based response, ie the drivers stop moving when input stops very quickly - and equal spectral decay times across the spectrum is important.So to be clear - I am a beginner building speakers - not with sound engineering in general - - no idea if that makes a difference. Ive always imagined building some monitors in old tree trunks - where I imagine the type of wood you use is key (cracking etc) . I think my PMCs have vfa tweeters - and they weren't cheap speakers !!
I already have some smaller generlecs (8330 and 7350 sub) which are great but I would rather like to use them as satellites in my surround system and use the 8351 a sky mains) I also have some PMCs , some Kefs and some Yamaha ns10s by the way which ar not particularly flat. ITs not just a flat response that matters, in fact that's not even the most important thing for monitoring (withing reason) its actually a very fast time based response, ie the drivers stop moving when input stops very quickly - and equal spectral decay times across the spectrum is important.So to be clear - I am a beginner building speakers - not with sound engineering in general - - no idea if that makes a difference. Ive always imagined building some monitors in old tree trunks - where I imagine the type of wood you use is key (cracking etc) . I think my PMCs have vfa tweeters - and they weren't cheap speakers !!
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Those ATC mid-range drivers are very rare birds these days, I would definitely build something with them and only sell them if I really needed the money.
If you need help with construction, you can get it, even here, imo.
If you need help with construction, you can get it, even here, imo.
This as well.
@Augustine.
ATC midrange is told to be one of the best sounding mid ever made. But your question was bit like - I have Mercedes Benz AMG V12 engine and want to build a car, and you asked it on a car builders forum. Point is, that you will get much better overall and much better performing 2.0 liter Ford from salon than your V12, if you have no experience, and to build your experience to match Fords quality, will take you lots of time.
That's was, I think your best best is to consult with some top european custom speaker makers. I know Tony Gee is top notch and his projects are extremely well reviewed. You may search for other custom speaker makers. They often take your own drivers and make the rest. Like in the V12 example - you can try to do it yourself, but you will loose all of the potential. You have an exceptionally rare, hi-end drivers, therefore is would be pity to loose their potential.
There are also few people in USA who do such services, but you will have it much easier with sending drivers across Europe.
My order would be:
1. Contact custom speaker maker in EU and talk with few, I already given you one well respected.
2. Contact custom spekaer maker in USA, if EU failed (I know at least two who could do this)
3. Buy CHEAP or used speakers and learn making speakers
4. Buy ready made studio monitors
5. Sell the thing.
And - if your goal was to make a speaker, than buy some cheap drivers like SB Acoustics or Dayton, or Peerless, etc and get something out of it. All of them are good stuff found in commercial speakers up to 2000k GBP and sometimes even more expensive, and after few iterations get your fully own speaker using ATC and TAD.
@Augustine.
ATC midrange is told to be one of the best sounding mid ever made. But your question was bit like - I have Mercedes Benz AMG V12 engine and want to build a car, and you asked it on a car builders forum. Point is, that you will get much better overall and much better performing 2.0 liter Ford from salon than your V12, if you have no experience, and to build your experience to match Fords quality, will take you lots of time.
That's was, I think your best best is to consult with some top european custom speaker makers. I know Tony Gee is top notch and his projects are extremely well reviewed. You may search for other custom speaker makers. They often take your own drivers and make the rest. Like in the V12 example - you can try to do it yourself, but you will loose all of the potential. You have an exceptionally rare, hi-end drivers, therefore is would be pity to loose their potential.
There are also few people in USA who do such services, but you will have it much easier with sending drivers across Europe.
My order would be:
1. Contact custom speaker maker in EU and talk with few, I already given you one well respected.
2. Contact custom spekaer maker in USA, if EU failed (I know at least two who could do this)
3. Buy CHEAP or used speakers and learn making speakers
4. Buy ready made studio monitors
5. Sell the thing.
And - if your goal was to make a speaker, than buy some cheap drivers like SB Acoustics or Dayton, or Peerless, etc and get something out of it. All of them are good stuff found in commercial speakers up to 2000k GBP and sometimes even more expensive, and after few iterations get your fully own speaker using ATC and TAD.
Hi - hmmm conflicting views here - some say I could do it with support from this page - some say not.
To be clear - Im not going to get someone else to build them for me - I cant afford that (it would cost a lot I suspect) . However I do have plenty of time.....
and I do know what absolute gems I have here - I have used ATC speakers with these drivers before in the studio (the midrange) and to be honest I did not like them and neither did any of the others in that facility - but I suspect this is because they are so brutally honest.Everything I mixed on them sounded great later.
I understand your point though - and I do not understimate years of speaker design experience cannot be disrespected - just they would be a really kickass pair of speakers and loud... Im also not sure Id get the resale value they deserve on them - they're a bit dusty, one dust cap is dented on one of the four tads and there's a cosmetic chip on one of the ATCs . Ive tested them all with multimeter though and pressed the drivers in gently no grinding and the ohm reading slook fine... dilemnas dilemnas ! I guess the amps are not going to be cheap either and I would want to put limiters in them too - perhaps this is all a bit much for a beginner..... Thanks for your input guys and gals.
To be clear - Im not going to get someone else to build them for me - I cant afford that (it would cost a lot I suspect) . However I do have plenty of time.....
and I do know what absolute gems I have here - I have used ATC speakers with these drivers before in the studio (the midrange) and to be honest I did not like them and neither did any of the others in that facility - but I suspect this is because they are so brutally honest.Everything I mixed on them sounded great later.
I understand your point though - and I do not understimate years of speaker design experience cannot be disrespected - just they would be a really kickass pair of speakers and loud... Im also not sure Id get the resale value they deserve on them - they're a bit dusty, one dust cap is dented on one of the four tads and there's a cosmetic chip on one of the ATCs . Ive tested them all with multimeter though and pressed the drivers in gently no grinding and the ohm reading slook fine... dilemnas dilemnas ! I guess the amps are not going to be cheap either and I would want to put limiters in them too - perhaps this is all a bit much for a beginner..... Thanks for your input guys and gals.
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You can keep these as a relatively long term learning project.
Quickest way to learn what you're working with is to:
1. Measure your current speaker's frequency and phase response outdoors using REW. There are tutorials for this. Also try ARTA and move the mic in real time to see the changes in frequency response.
2. Do the same thing indoors and learn what a mess the room can do the response. Try to differentiate speaker response vs. room interference.
3. Learn how to eq with dsp without over correcting peaks or nulls in the response caused by the room. You'll need to understand the overall dispersion characteristics of the speaker and what can be fixed with eq and what has to be corrected with placement/sound absorbtion.
4. Now you can start applying dsp crossovers by first equalizing each driver individually using the knowledge gained in the previous steps.
4a. Each driver should extend flat passed the crossover point to the extent possible.
For example:
A 500hz crossover point should have the woofer flat to 750hz. The ATC should be EQ'd flat down to 300hz or so. An LR24 is a good crossover slope to start with. Repeat the same thing with the mid to tweeter crossover. Ex: 3khz crossover should have the mid flat to 5khz and the tweeter flat to 2khz. These numbers are generalizations. More or less can work as well.
5. You'll need to delay the mid relative to woofer, and the tweeter relative to the mid. The tweeter delay will be more than the mid.
Adjust the delay until the response is flat at the crossover point.
6. I typically set the listening height right between the mid and tweeter. Some use the tweeter only. Best results depend on the speaker in question. Tweeter should be mounted as close as possible to the mid. Copy ATC's driver placement.
The woofer box should be made with high quality plywood(Baltic,Finnish,Russian Birch) with bracing. PL premium adhesive will help with any gaps you may have. Look for examples online. You can simulate the box volume and port dimensions using a program such as Boxsim, Hornresponse, WinISD (latest version). Line the box walls with foam or cotton absorbtion material. 5cm more or less will be fine.
You'll need six channels of amplification to get this done. Using an external crossover such as a Mini-Dsp 4x10 or T.rack 408 will be the easiest to implement.
For driver safety you may want to put a large capacitor in series with the mid. A 50uf poly will work fine for the mids and 20uf for the tweeter. This is in case you accidentally send lows to the mid or tweeter channel when setting your crossovers.
Lots of details missing but this is generally what it'll take to get a professional diy result with the least investment.
Quickest way to learn what you're working with is to:
1. Measure your current speaker's frequency and phase response outdoors using REW. There are tutorials for this. Also try ARTA and move the mic in real time to see the changes in frequency response.
2. Do the same thing indoors and learn what a mess the room can do the response. Try to differentiate speaker response vs. room interference.
3. Learn how to eq with dsp without over correcting peaks or nulls in the response caused by the room. You'll need to understand the overall dispersion characteristics of the speaker and what can be fixed with eq and what has to be corrected with placement/sound absorbtion.
4. Now you can start applying dsp crossovers by first equalizing each driver individually using the knowledge gained in the previous steps.
4a. Each driver should extend flat passed the crossover point to the extent possible.
For example:
A 500hz crossover point should have the woofer flat to 750hz. The ATC should be EQ'd flat down to 300hz or so. An LR24 is a good crossover slope to start with. Repeat the same thing with the mid to tweeter crossover. Ex: 3khz crossover should have the mid flat to 5khz and the tweeter flat to 2khz. These numbers are generalizations. More or less can work as well.
5. You'll need to delay the mid relative to woofer, and the tweeter relative to the mid. The tweeter delay will be more than the mid.
Adjust the delay until the response is flat at the crossover point.
6. I typically set the listening height right between the mid and tweeter. Some use the tweeter only. Best results depend on the speaker in question. Tweeter should be mounted as close as possible to the mid. Copy ATC's driver placement.
The woofer box should be made with high quality plywood(Baltic,Finnish,Russian Birch) with bracing. PL premium adhesive will help with any gaps you may have. Look for examples online. You can simulate the box volume and port dimensions using a program such as Boxsim, Hornresponse, WinISD (latest version). Line the box walls with foam or cotton absorbtion material. 5cm more or less will be fine.
You'll need six channels of amplification to get this done. Using an external crossover such as a Mini-Dsp 4x10 or T.rack 408 will be the easiest to implement.
For driver safety you may want to put a large capacitor in series with the mid. A 50uf poly will work fine for the mids and 20uf for the tweeter. This is in case you accidentally send lows to the mid or tweeter channel when setting your crossovers.
Lots of details missing but this is generally what it'll take to get a professional diy result with the least investment.
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Hi there,
I work building studios and I acoustics amongst other things so am already very familiar with Rew having done your first 3 suggestions many hundreds of times already!! , my current room has a fr of +/-4db and an even fast decay time across the spectrum so I am quite please with that (I like to mix quite dry). So the first 4 things I am already very familiar with. I have made dsp crossovers using my virtual mixer with my multichannel motu and rme soumdcards and have had good results with no peaks or nulls at the crossover points and am aware of all the old adages (you can't boost a null etc though there's a dispute about that). So your post offers me much encouragement other than I worry how much the three stereo amps are going to cost. Can you recomend an amp and tweeter for these drivers? Also is oak a bad idea, like a sealed oak tree trunk? Do the cabinets need to be ported I quite like sealed designs because of the fast decay times at lower frequencies (unless this is a myth but measurements seem to bear this up). I'd sacrifice lower frequencies for a faster lower end.
I work building studios and I acoustics amongst other things so am already very familiar with Rew having done your first 3 suggestions many hundreds of times already!! , my current room has a fr of +/-4db and an even fast decay time across the spectrum so I am quite please with that (I like to mix quite dry). So the first 4 things I am already very familiar with. I have made dsp crossovers using my virtual mixer with my multichannel motu and rme soumdcards and have had good results with no peaks or nulls at the crossover points and am aware of all the old adages (you can't boost a null etc though there's a dispute about that). So your post offers me much encouragement other than I worry how much the three stereo amps are going to cost. Can you recomend an amp and tweeter for these drivers? Also is oak a bad idea, like a sealed oak tree trunk? Do the cabinets need to be ported I quite like sealed designs because of the fast decay times at lower frequencies (unless this is a myth but measurements seem to bear this up). I'd sacrifice lower frequencies for a faster lower end.
The best relatively cheap tweters are SB Satori, around 120EUR. if you want cheaper there is Peerless HDS, Vifa XT25, old but still good. You can look on ebay and here is swap meet if want something hi-end and cheap. Seas 27TDCF has probably the best price/performance ratio available now.
Another question - do you want soft or hard membrane?
As for amplifier you asked - I would purchase class D amp, Hypex are often on sale here, but bet would be to ask in class D forum here.
Another question - do you want soft or hard membrane?
As for amplifier you asked - I would purchase class D amp, Hypex are often on sale here, but bet would be to ask in class D forum here.
Ooo I'm not sure, do you mean of the tweeters? I really don't know.. I like an open or airy sound if that makes sense, almost holographic though I know such adjectives are entirely subjective...
Would not recommend a tree trunk for these... unpredictable results.
Sealed is fine. Makes it that much easier as well. Any prosound amp from a reputable manufacturer with quiet fans will do the trick for the woofers. 250-500w per woofer be fine.
Same for the mid. Any well designed amp will work well.
I would use a Hypex or Purifi for the tweeter. A good class A or class AB amp will also work. Look for very low noise floor and low distortion at low power levels.
Lots of older perfectly useable amps on the used market.
Many great tweeters available. I would go for something with a waveguide but that's up to you. All depends on your budget. Satori, Bliesma, Viawave(Ribbon), Beyma(AMT), Mundorf Pro(AMT), are all among the best tweeters available to purchase.
Sealed is fine. Makes it that much easier as well. Any prosound amp from a reputable manufacturer with quiet fans will do the trick for the woofers. 250-500w per woofer be fine.
Same for the mid. Any well designed amp will work well.
I would use a Hypex or Purifi for the tweeter. A good class A or class AB amp will also work. Look for very low noise floor and low distortion at low power levels.
Lots of older perfectly useable amps on the used market.
Many great tweeters available. I would go for something with a waveguide but that's up to you. All depends on your budget. Satori, Bliesma, Viawave(Ribbon), Beyma(AMT), Mundorf Pro(AMT), are all among the best tweeters available to purchase.
T25A-6 Aluminum Dome Tweeter | Matched pair - SoundImports
This has the best overall (wide even)dispersion and (very low)distortion available. Can't do better for a 1" dome at that price.
This has the best overall (wide even)dispersion and (very low)distortion available. Can't do better for a 1" dome at that price.
Thanks for the info Ernie. Another question... is there a massive advantage to having 4 tad drivers 2 in each speaker(ie 2 bass drivers per speaker) or would I be better off selling a pair and just having one bass driver in each? When you say prosound do you mean the brand or just professional? Would PA amps be any good, I guess the slew rate isn't so good in them anyway you hardly see them being used for studio monitors so I guess not!!
I have a crossover for these mid drivers that I designed using the Scan Speak BE Tweeter and a very similar Woofer. They are simply brilliant and that mid range driver with the tweeter is super detailed and airy!!!!!!!!!!!!
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In my opinion, a single TAD 15 inch driver per cabinet will be sufficient, and using two drivers will double your cabinet size...
I highly recommend the Hypex FA-253 or FA-503 for your application. This single chassis plate amp has 3 channels plus built in DSP. The FA-253 has 250W (woof) + 250 W (mid) +100 W (tweet)... the FA-503 has 500W (woof) + 500 W (mid) +100 W (tweet). It has soft clip driver protection, and other features which a studio engineer might appreciate. I just a hifi nut, so I use it for its outstanding sound quality.
This is the thread where I describe my experience building a system around the hypex.
New active 3-Way, Hypex and SB
I highly recommend the Hypex FA-253 or FA-503 for your application. This single chassis plate amp has 3 channels plus built in DSP. The FA-253 has 250W (woof) + 250 W (mid) +100 W (tweet)... the FA-503 has 500W (woof) + 500 W (mid) +100 W (tweet). It has soft clip driver protection, and other features which a studio engineer might appreciate. I just a hifi nut, so I use it for its outstanding sound quality.
This is the thread where I describe my experience building a system around the hypex.
New active 3-Way, Hypex and SB
I would go for 2x15 a side. Especially since they'll be sealed. Can never have enough headroom for bass.
Prosound(PA) amps hold up quite well to many "studio" amps. Slew rate is more than enough in any solidstate amp built in the last 40 years. The main downside is fan noise. The upside is that you can get them for cheap and power is more important than just about anything else in the low end. Can always put a quiet Noctua PC fan.
Amp distortion and noise matter more at high frequencies as that is where distortion artifacts usually show up.
Can always go for a few Hypex modules but they'll cost more for less power.
MC^2 based in the UK is a good example of a "hi-fi" suitable PA amp.
Need we say more? Glowing S Series Review in a HiFi Setting! - MC2
In the U.S., Crown, Crest, QSC, Peavey, and others have all been used successfully in all kinds of situations.
Prosound(PA) amps hold up quite well to many "studio" amps. Slew rate is more than enough in any solidstate amp built in the last 40 years. The main downside is fan noise. The upside is that you can get them for cheap and power is more important than just about anything else in the low end. Can always put a quiet Noctua PC fan.
Amp distortion and noise matter more at high frequencies as that is where distortion artifacts usually show up.
Can always go for a few Hypex modules but they'll cost more for less power.
MC^2 based in the UK is a good example of a "hi-fi" suitable PA amp.
Need we say more? Glowing S Series Review in a HiFi Setting! - MC2
In the U.S., Crown, Crest, QSC, Peavey, and others have all been used successfully in all kinds of situations.
I'm assuming they have been pretty reliable for you? I wanted some until I read of all the issues some people were having...maybe it was just teething pain?
Easy to get hold of different amps here, rotel, crown etc
One question though with so many amps and drivers is phase differences for the signals coming from the different amps a possible issue?
Not an issue as long as you use the same model amp on tweets, same model for mids, etc. Major phase issues caused by crossover slopes will be taken care of in the delay settings.
Since you're pretty familiar with software and interfaces, you might consider a PC based crossover using FIR Filters. Read this and see if it's a more attractive(cheaper, possibly better) solution. Latency can be an issue but might not be a problem as long as you don't use FIR slopes below 200hz.
Windows PC as a FIR Audio Processor
Since you're pretty familiar with software and interfaces, you might consider a PC based crossover using FIR Filters. Read this and see if it's a more attractive(cheaper, possibly better) solution. Latency can be an issue but might not be a problem as long as you don't use FIR slopes below 200hz.
Windows PC as a FIR Audio Processor
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