I have had several sets of large format monitors built over the last few years - along with studios I build for friends and clients. Mostly variations of proven two way horn loaded designs (Econowave, Pi, SEOS). I have also had built a 3 way speaker from a kit by Wilmslow Audio (image attached). Either I have gotten lucky (being that my knowledge of speaker building is rudimentary, at best), or done something right by intuition - all the speakers are workhorses in daily use.
For my most important studio build yet, I'm aiming at something 'better'. I'm missing a certain 'smoothness and clarity in the midrange - 300 Hz to 3 KHz' with the horn loaded designs I have built so far. I would like to build something similar to the ATC SCM 200 ASL Pro. They cost well over $30000 a pair, and I have realistic expectations for the <$6000 I hope to spend. I don't expect to nail it - I just want to get in the ballpark.
ATC sells a woofer and midrange unit that seem similar to the ones they use in their pro models. I'm told that these are not the same ones they use in their pro models - but to my eye, as far as the specs go - they are sufficiently similar.
They also use a 34 mm soft dome tweeter and the only similar thing I can find is the Audax TWO34XO. I'm also looking at other tweeters that can deliver the kind of SPL needed to match the other components.
I will use a MiniDSP 10 x 10 device to handle crossover duties and one channel of inexpensive Class D amplification per driver. I have an acquaintance who is an excellent live sound systems tuning guy - I will call upon him to program the crossover.
My question - am I being an idiot? Is there something fundamentally wrong with what I'm trying to accomplish? Is there any reason why this is unlikely to work? Being that ATC doesn't sell the tweeter separately, is there a tweeter that can be recommended for the purpose?
Thanks,
For my most important studio build yet, I'm aiming at something 'better'. I'm missing a certain 'smoothness and clarity in the midrange - 300 Hz to 3 KHz' with the horn loaded designs I have built so far. I would like to build something similar to the ATC SCM 200 ASL Pro. They cost well over $30000 a pair, and I have realistic expectations for the <$6000 I hope to spend. I don't expect to nail it - I just want to get in the ballpark.
ATC sells a woofer and midrange unit that seem similar to the ones they use in their pro models. I'm told that these are not the same ones they use in their pro models - but to my eye, as far as the specs go - they are sufficiently similar.
They also use a 34 mm soft dome tweeter and the only similar thing I can find is the Audax TWO34XO. I'm also looking at other tweeters that can deliver the kind of SPL needed to match the other components.
I will use a MiniDSP 10 x 10 device to handle crossover duties and one channel of inexpensive Class D amplification per driver. I have an acquaintance who is an excellent live sound systems tuning guy - I will call upon him to program the crossover.
My question - am I being an idiot? Is there something fundamentally wrong with what I'm trying to accomplish? Is there any reason why this is unlikely to work? Being that ATC doesn't sell the tweeter separately, is there a tweeter that can be recommended for the purpose?
Thanks,
Attachments
Scanspeak or SB-mid-woofers would generally do very well in that range (300Hz - 3kHz) and with the bandwidth limiting would play very loud.
As for the tweeter, how about a Mundorf AMT? in addition to what Madisound sells, check out their pro line. Very good and much cheaper alternatives are the Vifa XT25 series of ring radiator tweeters.
Best,
Erik
As for the tweeter, how about a Mundorf AMT? in addition to what Madisound sells, check out their pro line. Very good and much cheaper alternatives are the Vifa XT25 series of ring radiator tweeters.
Best,
Erik
Hi you are doing what I used to do till about 10 years ago,The atc is a first class system beyond the drivers it also the electronics that makes it special,I also like the Neumann k h speakers the midrange is also very special Georg Neumann GmbH - Professional Monitoring
This might be in your budget
The genlec horn loaded midrange are also great but they are not dome drivers ,have you thought of making a waveguide
Morel makes some great high power tweeter and midrange units
Hope this helps
This might be in your budget
The genlec horn loaded midrange are also great but they are not dome drivers ,have you thought of making a waveguide
Morel makes some great high power tweeter and midrange units
Hope this helps
I think you want to take a look here (I am not affiliated with them). The ATC dome midrange is indeed very, very good (have used them myself). The ATC SM 150 you can buy new have lower sensitivity than the ones ATCs uses in their own designs. They are identical otherwise. I don't know about the ATC woofers, but I am sure there are tweeters that are better than the ATC ones.
Have you considered the Volt VM752 as an alternative to the ATC mid?
Volt Loudspeakers | VM752 (3″ Midrange Dome)
I suspect it came into being when ATC stopped supplying Roger Quested with domes when he became a viable competition in the pro monitor market.
ATC did the same with PMC and when K+H became part of Neumann.
PMC started to make their own 3" dome and Neumann/K+H simply discontinued their range topping o500 model.
Volt Loudspeakers | VM752 (3″ Midrange Dome)
I suspect it came into being when ATC stopped supplying Roger Quested with domes when he became a viable competition in the pro monitor market.
ATC did the same with PMC and when K+H became part of Neumann.
PMC started to make their own 3" dome and Neumann/K+H simply discontinued their range topping o500 model.
You're on the right track; get a transducer that has broad enough response to avoid crossovers where the ear is most sensitive. I recommend a browse of Troels Gravensen's excellent
JA8008 8" driver which has many of the features you seek, for reasonable money.
If you delve into horn loaded designs, the cabinets will be considerably larger.
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JA8008 8" driver which has many of the features you seek, for reasonable money.
If you delve into horn loaded designs, the cabinets will be considerably larger.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Strange that you say your horns don't do well in 300Hz to 3kHz range. A full range driver in a front loaded horn there just sounds amazing - well maybe 450Hz and above as 300Hz is a very large horn. A compression driver will not sound as good from 1k to 3k as a good paper cone in a front horn. The distortion of the CD is higher.
With that said, the mid on these ATCs are legendary but a very different sound than a FLH mid.
With that said, the mid on these ATCs are legendary but a very different sound than a FLH mid.
ATC has prescribed the most difficult part of the design for you........use their dome mid in your design. The important driver covers nearly the entire 'musical' range or the core of the frequency spectrum. There are literally dozens of dome tweeters that can match up performance wise to whatever is in the ATC so I wouldn't worry there at all......again the mid is pushing the XO high, nor would I be concerned with the bass drivers......SBAcoustics is producing some pretty amazing 12" woofers that will likely meet or exceed whatever those ATCs are capable of.
I love builds like this......good luck!
I love builds like this......good luck!
No they are not as they lack the SLMM motors and so do not deliver the low (predominantly third harmonic) distortion that is easily audible when comparing the two drivers.
The Volt dome uses a long coil in a short gap in an attempt to improve maximum SPL at low frequencies - or more suitably to reduce the low frequency cut-off. The ATC dome uses a short coil in a long gap and subsequently produces lower distortion (in its mid-band).
http://www.jantzen-audio.com/ja8008-hmq/#
For an alternative approach.
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dome not cone
Why would you use an 8" cone driver in place of a mid range dome? The magic of the big ATC monitors is in the large mid dome that gives a wide power response from 400 to 4K matching the dispersion of the tweeter.
Why would you use an 8" cone driver in place of a mid range dome? The magic of the big ATC monitors is in the large mid dome that gives a wide power response from 400 to 4K matching the dispersion of the tweeter.
It's cheaper to build (which is no doubt the primary motive of any manufacturer), I suspect it is also easier to build and it offers market differentiation (although that does not imply superiority despite what any number might say).
Since the SLMM version is not available to the public or other manufacturers, it is unlikely any competitor of ATC would want to include an obviously inferior component in a high-priced product.
I suspect there might also be a temptation to expect a lower cut-off frequency will encompass the "male vocal range" but this will be at the expense of distortion both from the motor geometry and the materials employed in its construction.
(Please also note that this is not a jibe at Volt Loudspeakers or the Volt dome: I have used Volt drivers to great effect several times. The ATC dome is, however, a masterful piece of engineering optimisation that - as is often over-looked on this forum - includes the means by which it is manufactured, its consistency and its reliability in the field - not to mention its near ideal specification for its intended purpose. Improving it is not an easy task).
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For about $US6k (in the US), you could make something very similar, and maybe even better.
Midbass: 1 or 2 AE TD15, depending on chosen arrangement.
Midrange: ATC or Volt mids. Expensive but I've seen more than one set of measurements and they are exceptional.
HF: Small RAAL, Beyma or Mundorf AMT. Maybe even some exceptional dome, but I've seen few I'd put in that category.
Xover: Active. MiniDSP HD. Amps are cheap as dirt.
I have a similar design on paper, but as it would be a bedroom speaker, I can't yet justify the cost for the components.
Midbass: 1 or 2 AE TD15, depending on chosen arrangement.
Midrange: ATC or Volt mids. Expensive but I've seen more than one set of measurements and they are exceptional.
HF: Small RAAL, Beyma or Mundorf AMT. Maybe even some exceptional dome, but I've seen few I'd put in that category.
Xover: Active. MiniDSP HD. Amps are cheap as dirt.
I have a similar design on paper, but as it would be a bedroom speaker, I can't yet justify the cost for the components.
The driver in the studio models by ATC is able to put out 121 dB continuous, between 380 Hz and 3.5 KHz. Will this 'inferior' SM75-150 driver be able to deliver similar output levels, if appropriately driven and crossed over? There is no doubt in my mind that the system has to deliver the kind of SPLs that large format studio monitors do, consistently.
I am also looking at the similarly specified Quested Q212D, which seems to feature a Volt midrange driver and woofer. Would anyone know if Quested is using stock units?
I guess I'm trying to build the system around the midrange driver, as a clear, smooth midrange is what I have been missing with large two way designs - I keep hearing highest accolades for the ATCs, and am naturally tending towards them. However if the Volt or some other driver is likely to serve me better, my ears are all open.
I am also looking at the similarly specified Quested Q212D, which seems to feature a Volt midrange driver and woofer. Would anyone know if Quested is using stock units?
I guess I'm trying to build the system around the midrange driver, as a clear, smooth midrange is what I have been missing with large two way designs - I keep hearing highest accolades for the ATCs, and am naturally tending towards them. However if the Volt or some other driver is likely to serve me better, my ears are all open.
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