Re: Re: Doesn't match up to my tube amps
carlosfm
🙂
I see we basically say the same thing.
lineup said:
carlosfm said:
carlosfm
🙂
I see we basically say the same thing.
GCs are unbeatable with the right system
> GCs are unbeatable with the right system
What makes you think that? Unbeatable? That's implying that you have heard every possible competitor and found then not as good.
I would wager a substantial amount of money that my SE monsters would eat a g/c on any system you tried it on. But they are really monsters; weighing in at 30 plus kg each. But I would not say they are unbeatable. I know that it's possible to build even better sounding amps, but they would cost a lot more.
What is impressive about a g/c is that for less than one tenth the cost to build, the sound is as good as it is.
Unlike a lot of amps, it does not mangle the sound and is perfectably listenable-to (ie does not make you want to run screaming from the room)
(and btw I am having a lot of fun. I like building things🙂
> GCs are unbeatable with the right system
What makes you think that? Unbeatable? That's implying that you have heard every possible competitor and found then not as good.
I would wager a substantial amount of money that my SE monsters would eat a g/c on any system you tried it on. But they are really monsters; weighing in at 30 plus kg each. But I would not say they are unbeatable. I know that it's possible to build even better sounding amps, but they would cost a lot more.
What is impressive about a g/c is that for less than one tenth the cost to build, the sound is as good as it is.
Unlike a lot of amps, it does not mangle the sound and is perfectably listenable-to (ie does not make you want to run screaming from the room)
(and btw I am having a lot of fun. I like building things🙂
Oh I would bet us$1000
But unless you can bring the system to New Zealand I doubt that the bet is on. (You are welcome to drop by...)
The reason I am so confident in this is that the difference is not close. I am aware of what small differences sound like. And this is not a small one. Just like the difference between a g/c and a low end amp.
Why do you think that g/c are the best amps in the world? That seems to me to be a foolish stance to take. So, they are better than a lot, maybe 90% of all amps, maybe more. But the best in the world? No way.
But unless you can bring the system to New Zealand I doubt that the bet is on. (You are welcome to drop by...)
The reason I am so confident in this is that the difference is not close. I am aware of what small differences sound like. And this is not a small one. Just like the difference between a g/c and a low end amp.
Why do you think that g/c are the best amps in the world? That seems to me to be a foolish stance to take. So, they are better than a lot, maybe 90% of all amps, maybe more. But the best in the world? No way.
beau2317 said:
$1000 doesn't even pay the trip to NZ.
Raise your bet, or keep it and offer the trip.
I don't think your SE amps could drive my speakers properly, and I'm alergic to untight bass.
Why what speakers do you have? I am driving my 4 ohm Magnepan 3.6s fine with my SE amp (it's not just a normal SE amp...it runs two 211 in parallel). Note that I have tried several other speakers as well. I am not just comparing the performance with the maggies, but note that both amps drive them well, contrary to what I would have expected.
But I find the bass as one particular point where the tube amp out-performs the g/c
I don't want this to degenerate into "my amp is better than your amp" but, well, it is
But I find the bass as one particular point where the tube amp out-performs the g/c
I don't want this to degenerate into "my amp is better than your amp" but, well, it is
Hi,
What's makes you think I think that?
What caught my attention was:
a) SE amp.
b) Any LS system.
Putting a and b together I can think of a zillion loudspeaker that would bring a SE tube amp to its knees in no time flat.
Whether it runs a pair of 211s or dozen 300Bs is really not important.
Oh, and if you think those Maggies are a difficult load than please, think again.
Cheers, 😉
What's makes you think I think that?
What caught my attention was:
a) SE amp.
b) Any LS system.
Putting a and b together I can think of a zillion loudspeaker that would bring a SE tube amp to its knees in no time flat.
Whether it runs a pair of 211s or dozen 300Bs is really not important.
Oh, and if you think those Maggies are a difficult load than please, think again.
Cheers, 😉
Sure I agree that there are many speakers that will bring an SE amp to it's knees. And there are many more difficult loads than maggies.
They are 4 ohm loads, but fairly benign (ie not very reactive)
What I meant to say was that I initially did not expect the SE to drive the maggies as well as they do. But they do and I am pleased about this.
But I don't think that just because an amp is SE automatically means it's any better or worse than driving a difficult load. It comes down to the design and the output transformer imho
They are 4 ohm loads, but fairly benign (ie not very reactive)
What I meant to say was that I initially did not expect the SE to drive the maggies as well as they do. But they do and I am pleased about this.
But I don't think that just because an amp is SE automatically means it's any better or worse than driving a difficult load. It comes down to the design and the output transformer imho
Chip amps are very useful as an entry level to audio electronics for all those people not having enough knowledge about discrete active and pasive components and how to combine them in order to produce working circuits. In fact, I still use a 4 channel 'thing' based in TDA7294 that I built 9 years ago, when I knew nothing about topics such as transistor behaviour, biasing, SOA or frequency stability.
However, all those innocent souls entering the chip-amp world are at a great risk of ending up focusing only in vague obscure vodoo things like exotic capacitors, exotic resistors, exotic wires, exotic cases and power-plant sized 50/60Hz power supplies; instead of learning through the vast complexity of solid state discrete design and acoustics, to be finally able to gain access into "black boxes", thus being able to analyse and understand in detail every piece of circuits and loudspeakers.
Be careful with chip amps and its people... When I built mine I was still convinced that all loudspeakers were perfectly flat sound sources from 30Hz to 20KHz and showed flat resistive 4 or 8 ohm impedance as the manufacturers claimed... (Obviously, there was still a lot of stuff to learn for me by that time).
However, all those innocent souls entering the chip-amp world are at a great risk of ending up focusing only in vague obscure vodoo things like exotic capacitors, exotic resistors, exotic wires, exotic cases and power-plant sized 50/60Hz power supplies; instead of learning through the vast complexity of solid state discrete design and acoustics, to be finally able to gain access into "black boxes", thus being able to analyse and understand in detail every piece of circuits and loudspeakers.
Be careful with chip amps and its people... When I built mine I was still convinced that all loudspeakers were perfectly flat sound sources from 30Hz to 20KHz and showed flat resistive 4 or 8 ohm impedance as the manufacturers claimed... (Obviously, there was still a lot of stuff to learn for me by that time).
beau2317 said:
Unless you really mean a GC (tipically with very low capacitance PSU), I can't believe that.
The GC I have is one of Peter Daniels premium LM3875 kits. I basically just added a transformer (torroidal, about 300VA)
Sorry if you can't believe it.
Sorry if you can't believe it.
Note that a lot of unexpected things may happen when a loudspeaker having a wide 50 ohm resonance peak at 40Hz and 5 ohm impedance in the midband is driven with a tube amplifier having 4 to 8 ohm output impedance. Nothing of that would hapen when the same speaker is driven by a chip amp having an output impedance below 0.1ohm.
P.S.: Actually people loves to put insane amounts of equalisation into their music: The shy ones use valve amplifiers and find a suitable speaker, the brave ones just buy an equalizer 😀
P.S.: Actually people loves to put insane amounts of equalisation into their music: The shy ones use valve amplifiers and find a suitable speaker, the brave ones just buy an equalizer 😀
Hmm, are you thinking that maggies have such a reonant peak (or is that trough). Where is the data for that? I'd be interested.
Actually I admit that the maggies don't do a true 40hz very well in my room. I use a sub most of the time. But of course I would not use a sub when comparing amplifiers, and in fact my comments about bass were mainly from other speakers I tried with that do do low bass (ones I can think of were some KEFs and B&Ws)
40Hz is a lot lower than most people imagine...
Note that maggies can do very nice bass but it's very room dependent, more so that with box spkrs.
Just because an amp measures well doesn't mean it sounds good. The Jadis JA200 was known to be one of the best sounding amps of it's time (and probably still is) but it measured terribly.
I had held off posting my findings in this forum as I expected to be laughed at. Better go back to the tube forum where I belong 🙄
Actually I admit that the maggies don't do a true 40hz very well in my room. I use a sub most of the time. But of course I would not use a sub when comparing amplifiers, and in fact my comments about bass were mainly from other speakers I tried with that do do low bass (ones I can think of were some KEFs and B&Ws)
40Hz is a lot lower than most people imagine...
Note that maggies can do very nice bass but it's very room dependent, more so that with box spkrs.
Just because an amp measures well doesn't mean it sounds good. The Jadis JA200 was known to be one of the best sounding amps of it's time (and probably still is) but it measured terribly.
I had held off posting my findings in this forum as I expected to be laughed at. Better go back to the tube forum where I belong 🙄
Eva said:
Thanks, I was just going there next. 😀
And a good PSU, certainly not 1,500uF caps per rail, those typical GC things can't drive most speakers. With an amp like that, the seach for proper speakers is the same as a for SET amp.
20,000uF or more per rail (snubberized) and thigs get serious.
beau2317 said:
I don't know the JA200, but I once heard two Jadis integrated tube amps and they sounded plain horrible to me.
Steel string guitar sounded like cheap plastic strings on a toy guitar. Such a smoothing of everything is unbearable to me.
Also, I heard hum on my listening position, some 5 meters from the speakers.
beau2317 said:
No, please don't take things personally.
I understand musical tastes and that people may have other priorities in audio, other preferences. I may not agree, but I understand.
That's why I think that threads like this are nonsense.
beau2317 said:
No. That only works if you have really easy to drive speakers.
There are solutions to use high capacitance with very good results, you just have been distracted, or you don't have any interest in chipamps and trying to take the max out of them.
I understand that.
But you can't generalize about chipamps, because even if you use the same chip you can make very different sounding amps.
Your experience is limited to the only chipamp you built (with the LM3875), and the results of that amp on your system.
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