Camera vs Amp
A camera with cheap opics is like an Amp with lousy PSU...
Change your zoom-lens with a fixed, and enjoy your EOS!
Arne K
A camera with cheap opics is like an Amp with lousy PSU...
Change your zoom-lens with a fixed, and enjoy your EOS!
Arne K
35Ti
Hey I own the Nikon 35Ti too! When it came out, it was so cute and well made and retro, I just had to buy it. Alas, I never really used it. The whole 35mm thing just got overtaken by the digital revolution, like vinyl and tape I suppose.
Nowadays, I just take out the 35Ti once in a while to admire it for a few minutes, then back into the ziplock bag it goes with the silica pack 🙄
Hey I own the Nikon 35Ti too! When it came out, it was so cute and well made and retro, I just had to buy it. Alas, I never really used it. The whole 35mm thing just got overtaken by the digital revolution, like vinyl and tape I suppose.
Nowadays, I just take out the 35Ti once in a while to admire it for a few minutes, then back into the ziplock bag it goes with the silica pack 🙄
Re: Camera vs Amp
But wide angle zoom was the main reason to buy EOS😉
I used mine quite a lot and took it on many trips, but since I bought a digital camera, my 35Ti see the same use as yours now😉
Cobra2 said:
But wide angle zoom was the main reason to buy EOS😉
Alex S said:
I used mine quite a lot and took it on many trips, but since I bought a digital camera, my 35Ti see the same use as yours now😉
the truth shall set you free
The extent to which this debate continues could be construed as justification in itself of more than a thread of truth in the original allegation.
So, whether it's amps or cameras or cars... it seems pretty obvious that selective sensory disability or perhaps stubborn vanity supervenes over blatant logic here. Let me decode: a chip is a chip. A chip with a reg PSU, buffered inputs, silver wiring and tantalum resistors remains a chip. Which is fine... let me repeat for all those with frail ego's...FINE! So long as your diligent, enjoyable and time-consuming construction efforts don't overtake common sense, leading to allegations of Krell-bashing abilities or other stratospheric sonic achievements. Listen to MBK guys... it's a bloody Golf! It may be the fastest Golf since Tiger Woods, but a Golf it always shall be! And I'm not even a Krell fan...
I also own a Minolta SRT101 - damn fine 35mm SLR, even for a 40yr vintage model! And I own an Eos 500N. The latter is a hell of a lot easier to use. Both beat the crap out of any 35mm point-and-shoot (yes Peter, I'm waiting for your reply... I'm sure you have a Nikonclone running on Li batteries with a 40kW flash).
This is the nature of cars, photography, amps and life in general. You get what you pay for, one way or another. So, no matter how disagreeable you may find the truth, that is what it shall remain: the unavoidable, undeniable truth!
Now if it's possible to soup-up a gainclown to the point that subjective logic goes out the window, then just think what might be possible with a solidly-designed discrete amp.
The extent to which this debate continues could be construed as justification in itself of more than a thread of truth in the original allegation.
So, whether it's amps or cameras or cars... it seems pretty obvious that selective sensory disability or perhaps stubborn vanity supervenes over blatant logic here. Let me decode: a chip is a chip. A chip with a reg PSU, buffered inputs, silver wiring and tantalum resistors remains a chip. Which is fine... let me repeat for all those with frail ego's...FINE! So long as your diligent, enjoyable and time-consuming construction efforts don't overtake common sense, leading to allegations of Krell-bashing abilities or other stratospheric sonic achievements. Listen to MBK guys... it's a bloody Golf! It may be the fastest Golf since Tiger Woods, but a Golf it always shall be! And I'm not even a Krell fan...
I also own a Minolta SRT101 - damn fine 35mm SLR, even for a 40yr vintage model! And I own an Eos 500N. The latter is a hell of a lot easier to use. Both beat the crap out of any 35mm point-and-shoot (yes Peter, I'm waiting for your reply... I'm sure you have a Nikonclone running on Li batteries with a 40kW flash).
This is the nature of cars, photography, amps and life in general. You get what you pay for, one way or another. So, no matter how disagreeable you may find the truth, that is what it shall remain: the unavoidable, undeniable truth!
Now if it's possible to soup-up a gainclown to the point that subjective logic goes out the window, then just think what might be possible with a solidly-designed discrete amp.
Except that as you continue to ignore: Chips can implement stuff that are impossible to do in discrete circuits such as short signal paths, so of course your statement isn't true. A closed mind is a closed mind is a closed mind....
And that shows the two sides of the field. Those who enjoy the true performance of something, and those who love the big price tag associated with a fancy name.
Re: the truth shall set you free
Actually Nikon 35Ti is not your average point and shoot. It reminds GainCard even more, when you consider the price tag. It was around $1,700 in Canada😉
DrG said:
Actually Nikon 35Ti is not your average point and shoot. It reminds GainCard even more, when you consider the price tag. It was around $1,700 in Canada😉
and on the subject of ignoring...
No argument on short signals, variac... but let's try varying a few basic circuit elements in any chip... resistor values or types?...o/p devices?... wiring type? Not possible.
Now you can decide for yourself whether circuit alterations of the type I have mentioned, possible only with discrete circuits, are capable of more or less sonic impact than short signal paths.
I may have a closed mind, but at least I work with open circuits...
No argument on short signals, variac... but let's try varying a few basic circuit elements in any chip... resistor values or types?...o/p devices?... wiring type? Not possible.
Now you can decide for yourself whether circuit alterations of the type I have mentioned, possible only with discrete circuits, are capable of more or less sonic impact than short signal paths.
I may have a closed mind, but at least I work with open circuits...
Irrelevant. The argument is not whether chip amps can be used as test beds for experimentation, it's whether or not their audio quality equals that of Big Expensive Stuff. I would suspect that the teams of smart engineers at NS just might have done that diddling sort of optimization before the chip went into production.
SY said:
To be a fly on the wall.
"So, shall we use the carbon comp resistors or wirewounds? Say what? This is going to be a monolithic design? Oh. Nevermind." 😀
se
Well, you DO have thick-film options. And I supposed that carbon can be sputtered or CVD'ed through masks. Heck, you could lay down some PPX and pyrolyze it, if you were so inclined.
sigh, SY
er...no. The argument is whether a chip in gainclown guise or any other config COULD be made to rival a solid, optimized discrete design... my contention is 'no' and my reasons are the limitations imposed on NS designers by the laws of physics and cost eg inability to easily fabricate PNP stages, limiting o/p topology to quasi-complimentary or the limitations on types of passive elements that can be hooked up to these.
er...no. The argument is whether a chip in gainclown guise or any other config COULD be made to rival a solid, optimized discrete design... my contention is 'no' and my reasons are the limitations imposed on NS designers by the laws of physics and cost eg inability to easily fabricate PNP stages, limiting o/p topology to quasi-complimentary or the limitations on types of passive elements that can be hooked up to these.
Nope, sorry. You haven't demonstrated Point 1 yet, that there's any difference in sound between a chip amp and a Krell when driving a reasonable load. You're just focusing in on topological issues that have tenuous connection to sound.
Variac said:
But such a small physical geometry can also have its drawbacks, particularly with respect to thermal effects. The low current input and VAS stages are built nearly right on top of the high current output stage.
se
Re: and on the subject of ignoring...
A good sounding amp, IS a good sounding amp. The technology used inside the box is irrelevant to the actual listening experience.
Ok, so you like to have amps that you can alter and play with, with lots of components and schematics to tweak. A laudable trait for a diyer. But that has nothing at all to do with sound quality of the results.
You can get simple good amps and complicated bad ones, and vice versa. There is no correlation that I have ever heard that links these two factors.
DrG said:
A good sounding amp, IS a good sounding amp. The technology used inside the box is irrelevant to the actual listening experience.
Ok, so you like to have amps that you can alter and play with, with lots of components and schematics to tweak. A laudable trait for a diyer. But that has nothing at all to do with sound quality of the results.
You can get simple good amps and complicated bad ones, and vice versa. There is no correlation that I have ever heard that links these two factors.
focus pocus
And you're focusing on short wires. Exactly how short is a piece of wire? Sorry, I digress...
To myself I've demonstrated the mediocrity of chips. No, no Krell comparison. Don't own one. Did compare to my own hybrid and a heavily-modified Sony TA220 4-channel amp... no contest. But don't take my word for it... prove it for yourself.
And you're focusing on short wires. Exactly how short is a piece of wire? Sorry, I digress...
To myself I've demonstrated the mediocrity of chips. No, no Krell comparison. Don't own one. Did compare to my own hybrid and a heavily-modified Sony TA220 4-channel amp... no contest. But don't take my word for it... prove it for yourself.
Well Duh, of course it can have drawbacks, my point is that some are focusing only on the drawbacks. Speaking of resistors, didn't I hear somewhere that they can laser trim the resistors on some of these chips for matching? Even if they aren't trimmed, precision is the name of the game in chips- I'll bet their resistors match very well when need be. When buying transistors for Aleph amps, most people report that ones from the same batch (wafer?)
match quite well. In a chip the transistors are certainly from the same batch so probably match exceptioanally well.
How about the hundreds of evil solder joints the chip don't have and discrete do.
Of course this is a loss to the DIY world in many ways- The same way as a chip watch devalued the handbuilt watch. I know people still buy the expensive watch, but a lot fewer do, because the connection between cost and performance was destroyed.
The handbuilt watch becomes an archaic indulgence purchased only because of nostalgia, or appreciation of the mechanism or to purchase status, but not because it performs its timekeeping function better. Of course the purpose of a watch might be more to convey status of the wearer than timekeeping.
Maybe the purpose of the Krell is to purchase status also. You can show it to your friends....
If in fact chip amps become acknowledged as better that any DIY attempt, (certainly not something I would claim at this time) the fun of DIY will indeed decrease as it loses meaning.
Unfortunately this is happening all the time: watches, cameras, etc.etc. A crappy piece of silicon beats out a masterpiece of craftmanship. Don't get me ewrong, it makes me sad that the opportunities for experimentation will dwindle.
One saving factor for audio is that the signal has to be converted into sound waves, so speakers will still be a fertile field of interest.
Maybe further into the future whe will be able to get cheap custom chips on which we can vary the topology and components
match quite well. In a chip the transistors are certainly from the same batch so probably match exceptioanally well.
How about the hundreds of evil solder joints the chip don't have and discrete do.
Of course this is a loss to the DIY world in many ways- The same way as a chip watch devalued the handbuilt watch. I know people still buy the expensive watch, but a lot fewer do, because the connection between cost and performance was destroyed.
The handbuilt watch becomes an archaic indulgence purchased only because of nostalgia, or appreciation of the mechanism or to purchase status, but not because it performs its timekeeping function better. Of course the purpose of a watch might be more to convey status of the wearer than timekeeping.
Maybe the purpose of the Krell is to purchase status also. You can show it to your friends....
If in fact chip amps become acknowledged as better that any DIY attempt, (certainly not something I would claim at this time) the fun of DIY will indeed decrease as it loses meaning.
Unfortunately this is happening all the time: watches, cameras, etc.etc. A crappy piece of silicon beats out a masterpiece of craftmanship. Don't get me ewrong, it makes me sad that the opportunities for experimentation will dwindle.
One saving factor for audio is that the signal has to be converted into sound waves, so speakers will still be a fertile field of interest.
Maybe further into the future whe will be able to get cheap custom chips on which we can vary the topology and components
Re: focus pocus
Key phrase being "to myself." What you may prove to yourself has no inherent validity for anyone else but yourself. What sounds medicore to you may not sound mediocre to someone else.
Ok, you don't like the sound of chip amps. So what? No one ever said you had to. So why should it matter to anyone else how they happen to sound to you?
se
DrG said:
Key phrase being "to myself." What you may prove to yourself has no inherent validity for anyone else but yourself. What sounds medicore to you may not sound mediocre to someone else.
Ok, you don't like the sound of chip amps. So what? No one ever said you had to. So why should it matter to anyone else how they happen to sound to you?
se
Variac said:
Actually I think we're just getting way off track here discussing technical issues in the first place. It really doesn't matter how many resistors can dance on a slab of silicon or how tightly they're matched, etc.
The only thing that matters as far as I see it is how do they sound. And how they sound will depend on the individual doing the listening. And when it comes to how something sounds to a given individual, there's simply nothing to argue about.
DrG and some others don't care for them. Some others do. What more is there to say?
se
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