Hello folks! I am a newbie who's recently acquired a pair of fixer-upper Ariel Mark II's. I hope you folks can answer a question or two for me.
The crossovers are on ughly boards and put together with a big mess of speaker wire, solder and masking tape. I'm thinking that, at least until I can wire them up neatly in a nice box, I'd like to use a simple crossover instead. Ariel's inventor said that infidels such as myself could use a 2 to 3 uF cap in series with the tweeter and a 10 to 16 ohm across its terminals. See http://www.aloha-audio.com/Arieltxt2.html#top, near the bottom. (One gets the impression that if there were an html tag <SNEAR>, he would have used it.) The 2-3 uF value for the cap seems small to me. Is that right? Also, near the top of the page he said that when he first tried that crossover, he was obligued to wire tweeters in reverse polarity to the mid/bass drivers. Am I reading that right?
In short, in order to limp along until I can refactor the fancy crossover, can I use the cap and resistor as described, reverse wiring the tweeters?
Best regards,
Dave
The crossovers are on ughly boards and put together with a big mess of speaker wire, solder and masking tape. I'm thinking that, at least until I can wire them up neatly in a nice box, I'd like to use a simple crossover instead. Ariel's inventor said that infidels such as myself could use a 2 to 3 uF cap in series with the tweeter and a 10 to 16 ohm across its terminals. See http://www.aloha-audio.com/Arieltxt2.html#top, near the bottom. (One gets the impression that if there were an html tag <SNEAR>, he would have used it.) The 2-3 uF value for the cap seems small to me. Is that right? Also, near the top of the page he said that when he first tried that crossover, he was obligued to wire tweeters in reverse polarity to the mid/bass drivers. Am I reading that right?
In short, in order to limp along until I can refactor the fancy crossover, can I use the cap and resistor as described, reverse wiring the tweeters?
Best regards,
Dave
Try it and listen. What'll it cost you - a couple bucks and some time? So you trust him for the complex crossover, but not the simple one?
Ron E said:
Lynn Olson, the Ariel guy, says a couple of bucks won't do it. He advocates very pricey capacitors for tweeters. I wouldn't know one way or the other.
I'm just asking for a sanity check. I don't know anything about crossovers, but from what I've read, 2uF seems real small to me. Could there be a typo in the article? The tweeters are rated at 4.7 ohms, btw. I also want to be sure I'm understanding the part about reverse wiring the tweeters.
I guess I want someone to say, "I'm real smart and I know everything about this stuff. Your understanding is correct. Quit dilly-dalling and get busy."
Dave
Ron E said:
I calculate that with a 2 uF capacitor and 4.7 ohm speaker, the crossover point would be close to 17,000 hz. That's what's bothering me. I must be missing something.
Dave
Ah hah. Light dawns over Dunderhead! (I think.) I have to take the resistor into account, right?
My apologies for being such a dunce.
Dave
My apologies for being such a dunce.
Dave
Remember that the impedance of the tweet varies with frequency - 4.7R is just the DC resistance. This chart shows the freq resp and impedance (bottom plot) for a D2905-9500:
http://www.d-s-t.com/scs/data/d2905_950000c.htm
As you can see, when you get above 5KHz, the impedance of the tweet starts to rise from 6R @ 5KHz to 12R @ 20KHz. Putting a 16R resistor in parallel with the tweeter will reduce that impedance swing to 4.3R at 5KHz to 6.8R at 20KHz.
So you're back to square one with a roll off that seems too high. I actually started writing this thinking that impedance rise would give a reasonable roll off figure, totally forgetting about the parallel resistor!
I'd say buy some cheap 2uF -> 3uF caps and try it. It this is just a tempory solution until the main crossover are sorted, right?
Reversing the tweeter connections is a standard practice to improve the overall integration of the drivers. Try it both ways and see which you like best.
Nice one,
David.
http://www.d-s-t.com/scs/data/d2905_950000c.htm
As you can see, when you get above 5KHz, the impedance of the tweet starts to rise from 6R @ 5KHz to 12R @ 20KHz. Putting a 16R resistor in parallel with the tweeter will reduce that impedance swing to 4.3R at 5KHz to 6.8R at 20KHz.
So you're back to square one with a roll off that seems too high. I actually started writing this thinking that impedance rise would give a reasonable roll off figure, totally forgetting about the parallel resistor!
I'd say buy some cheap 2uF -> 3uF caps and try it. It this is just a tempory solution until the main crossover are sorted, right?
Reversing the tweeter connections is a standard practice to improve the overall integration of the drivers. Try it both ways and see which you like best.
Nice one,
David.
daatkins said:
Thanks for verifying that I'm not completely out to lunch. Being a tyro and all, I thought I might be missing something obvious. Mr. Olson did write that he didn't care for the sound with the simple crossover. Hmmm... Even geniuses make mistakes.
I think I'll try some caps in the 2-8 uF range, starting on the low end. I'll be careful not to blow out the tweeters.
What kind of caps should I get? -- preferably something that one can get at Fry's or Radio Shack. I understand I should avoid the cheaper kinds.
Best regards,
Dave
One more thing...
I've searched the web over for a plot of the Vifa PI13WH00-08 like the one you posted the link to for the tweeter: http://www.d-s-t.com/scs/data/d2905_950000c.htm. No luck. Do you know where I can find a frequency response graph for the midbass?
Dave
I've searched the web over for a plot of the Vifa PI13WH00-08 like the one you posted the link to for the tweeter: http://www.d-s-t.com/scs/data/d2905_950000c.htm. No luck. Do you know where I can find a frequency response graph for the midbass?
Dave
Thanks again.
New information has surfaced. (Translation: The idiot actually looked at the part number on the tweeter.) What I've got is D2905/9000, not 9050. I can't find specs and frequency plot for the 9000. Would 2uF look reasonable on a 9000? I believe the early versions of the Ariel were specked to use that tweeter.
I've been very busy googling. I found something else, namely, a schematic for a version 2.2 crossover, which has a total of four coils, two on the tweeter and two on the woofer. So that's probably what I've got. http://ai.kaist.ac.kr/~suh/DIY/xover.gif.
Dave
New information has surfaced. (Translation: The idiot actually looked at the part number on the tweeter.) What I've got is D2905/9000, not 9050. I can't find specs and frequency plot for the 9000. Would 2uF look reasonable on a 9000? I believe the early versions of the Ariel were specked to use that tweeter.
I've been very busy googling. I found something else, namely, a schematic for a version 2.2 crossover, which has a total of four coils, two on the tweeter and two on the woofer. So that's probably what I've got. http://ai.kaist.ac.kr/~suh/DIY/xover.gif.
Dave
I don't have an impedance measurement of the tweeter in question, but the 2uf/16ohm combo on a typical 4-6 ohm tweeter gives a xo freq of about 10-12kHz on my simulator. A quick skim of the article suggested to me that he was running the woofer free and had just the cap and resistor on the tweeter. In that case, there is absolutely nothing wrong with such a high crossover.
My point was, if you trust Olsen to make a good-sounding crossover with many components, why wouldn't you trust him to make a fair judgement of the simpler crossover. He said it measured flat , but sounded too analytical to him. Since one of the main complaints of the Ariel is that it sounds too laid back - even recessed, perhaps the more analytical crossover might suit your tastes more.
Since you are rebuilding the original crossovers, it might make an interesting experiment - maybe $8 in components....
Regarding component quality, Mylar (polyester) caps are "good enough" for audio - many reasonably high end companies (Snell et al) use them, but polypropylene are better and often cost only ~20% more.
Anyone who advocates high buck crossover components and wire is just an audio elitist type who is trying to justify the money they spend on audio...
My point was, if you trust Olsen to make a good-sounding crossover with many components, why wouldn't you trust him to make a fair judgement of the simpler crossover. He said it measured flat , but sounded too analytical to him. Since one of the main complaints of the Ariel is that it sounds too laid back - even recessed, perhaps the more analytical crossover might suit your tastes more.
Since you are rebuilding the original crossovers, it might make an interesting experiment - maybe $8 in components....
Regarding component quality, Mylar (polyester) caps are "good enough" for audio - many reasonably high end companies (Snell et al) use them, but polypropylene are better and often cost only ~20% more.
Anyone who advocates high buck crossover components and wire is just an audio elitist type who is trying to justify the money they spend on audio...
I managed to get in touch with Lynn Olson by email, and he was kind enough to answer my question. While he did not comment on whether 2ohms was a mistake, he suggested trying a 5uF cap with a 10 ohm resistor, while warning of higher distortion in the tweeter compared to the full crossover.
But which full crossover?
I've cleaned up the ones I have somewhat. My curiosity is peeked. The midbass crossover is identical to the one on the Nutshell web page. However, the tweeter crossover has an extra component comprising a .7mH coil, a 4ohm resistor and a 10uF cap. You can view the Nutshell schematic here:
http://www.aloha-audio.com/Arieltxt2.html#top
and the one I have here:
http://ai.kaist.ac.kr/~suh/DIY/xover.gif
The previous owner has clipped wires, effectively removing the 6ohm and 10 ohm resistors and the 2.2uF cap.
Can anyone help me make sense of this? Does anyone know which design came first?
Dave
But which full crossover?
I've cleaned up the ones I have somewhat. My curiosity is peeked. The midbass crossover is identical to the one on the Nutshell web page. However, the tweeter crossover has an extra component comprising a .7mH coil, a 4ohm resistor and a 10uF cap. You can view the Nutshell schematic here:
http://www.aloha-audio.com/Arieltxt2.html#top
and the one I have here:
http://ai.kaist.ac.kr/~suh/DIY/xover.gif
The previous owner has clipped wires, effectively removing the 6ohm and 10 ohm resistors and the 2.2uF cap.
Can anyone help me make sense of this? Does anyone know which design came first?
Dave
Some thoughts on the Ariels
From an obsessive compulsive enthusiast -
How sick are the cabinets??
Did the former owner have the cabinets professionally built?
or are the cabinets slip-shod?? I don't mean cosmetics, I mean in terms of solid, everything meet up well, etc., dimensions correct??
If the cabinets are solid, why don't you build the full crossover for the 9500 version of the tweeter, and then when finances permit stick a pair of the 9500's in? $85 each.
Then, you're on track to wind up with what is generally considered to be the best version and you've not wasted much effort or expense to get there.
Desolder the crossovers you have and start over from scratch on the full crossover version, salvaging what components you can, building the version for the 9500 shown at this link
http://www.northcreekmusic.com/ArielCrossover.html
I don't know how many versions of crossovers are out there but the North Creek folks seem to have a good bit of crossover expertise, and I would bet that they have the best version for the 9500 posted on their site.
Speakers are the most critical link (weakest link of the chain, ususally), and crossovers are critical to the speakers.
Looking at the larger picture, this seems like a good plan to me if the cabinets are worthy of the extra expense.
Least effort yet the greatest chance of success, only having to cough up 170 for a pair of tweeters
HTH
Later
Ken L
From an obsessive compulsive enthusiast -
How sick are the cabinets??
Did the former owner have the cabinets professionally built?
or are the cabinets slip-shod?? I don't mean cosmetics, I mean in terms of solid, everything meet up well, etc., dimensions correct??
If the cabinets are solid, why don't you build the full crossover for the 9500 version of the tweeter, and then when finances permit stick a pair of the 9500's in? $85 each.
Then, you're on track to wind up with what is generally considered to be the best version and you've not wasted much effort or expense to get there.
Desolder the crossovers you have and start over from scratch on the full crossover version, salvaging what components you can, building the version for the 9500 shown at this link
http://www.northcreekmusic.com/ArielCrossover.html
I don't know how many versions of crossovers are out there but the North Creek folks seem to have a good bit of crossover expertise, and I would bet that they have the best version for the 9500 posted on their site.
Speakers are the most critical link (weakest link of the chain, ususally), and crossovers are critical to the speakers.
Looking at the larger picture, this seems like a good plan to me if the cabinets are worthy of the extra expense.
Least effort yet the greatest chance of success, only having to cough up 170 for a pair of tweeters
HTH
Later
Ken L
Re: Some thoughts on the Ariels
All (or almost all) is revealed. I got another email from Lynn Olson. The notch filter can and should stay. I'm not sure if I should clip it out if I upgrade to 9500's.
The cabinets are not sick at all. They are very well made. Solid, with nicely rounded corners on the front. Good hard wool pads.
I've re-wired it, re-stuffed it, repaired the crossovers, and installed the speakers with good gasket material. The soldering on the crossovers looks downright attrocious, but I think the electrons will do my bidding. Tomorrow I need to do something about the hole in the back of the cabinet where the speaker connections go, and then I'll be ready to give her a try. Exciting stuff.
All (or almost all) is revealed. I got another email from Lynn Olson. The notch filter can and should stay. I'm not sure if I should clip it out if I upgrade to 9500's.
The cabinets are not sick at all. They are very well made. Solid, with nicely rounded corners on the front. Good hard wool pads.
I've re-wired it, re-stuffed it, repaired the crossovers, and installed the speakers with good gasket material. The soldering on the crossovers looks downright attrocious, but I think the electrons will do my bidding. Tomorrow I need to do something about the hole in the back of the cabinet where the speaker connections go, and then I'll be ready to give her a try. Exciting stuff.
That's great.
sounds like you're on a really good track.
I had the 9500's in my front 3 speakers - Scan Speak solists from Madisound for several years - I no longer have those speakers
The 9500's are nice - smooth yet not too bright or tinny
Since you've got a really nice pair of speakers, you might want to spring for the 9500's at some point - but would just go ahead with what you've got for now. If you do put the 9500's in later, I would just use the version on the North Creek site.
last but not least - If something doesn't sound quite right, I would redo all solder connections, particularly any that are duller looking than the others. Out of all this, the only part that bothers me is the solder connections -
Fire it up and let us know how they sound.
Later
Ken L
sounds like you're on a really good track.
I had the 9500's in my front 3 speakers - Scan Speak solists from Madisound for several years - I no longer have those speakers
The 9500's are nice - smooth yet not too bright or tinny
Since you've got a really nice pair of speakers, you might want to spring for the 9500's at some point - but would just go ahead with what you've got for now. If you do put the 9500's in later, I would just use the version on the North Creek site.
last but not least - If something doesn't sound quite right, I would redo all solder connections, particularly any that are duller looking than the others. Out of all this, the only part that bothers me is the solder connections -
Fire it up and let us know how they sound.
Later
Ken L
The extra components you mention were a LCR filter for the earlier tweeter. If you look on the webpages for Northcreek Music systems (supplier of Ariel kits) they have this crossover posted.
5 uf and 10 - 12 ohm are what I remember for the simple crossover as my last iteration.
My daughter has my 2 old Ariel's and 3 ME-2's in her home theatre. Ariels have the full crossover, the ME-2's have the simple crossover. Can't offer any comments, those two speakers (despite Lynn's claims) are really quite different.
Cyclotronguy.
5 uf and 10 - 12 ohm are what I remember for the simple crossover as my last iteration.
My daughter has my 2 old Ariel's and 3 ME-2's in her home theatre. Ariels have the full crossover, the ME-2's have the simple crossover. Can't offer any comments, those two speakers (despite Lynn's claims) are really quite different.
Cyclotronguy.
I've absolutely got to keep the 9000's for a while. I'm looking forward to saying, "Yeah, I've got almost $190 into this set of speakers."
I bought the stuff for $150. Eat your heart out! Nya hahahaha!
I bought the stuff for $150. Eat your heart out! Nya hahahaha!
cyclotronguy said:
I found the new one without the extra LRC easily enough. Can't find the older one with the LRC. What's the link?
The Ariels sing again!
OH MY GOD!
I'm in my office listening to Angelique Kidjo's _Fifa_. How the heck does all that bass come out of those little 5.5" speakers? The clarity is incredible, too. The recent Nora Jones CD is transcendent. Life on a String by Laurie Anderson - what can I say? Even Tom Waits sounds better. I'm going through my whole collection.
My audiophile, cabinet-building friend down the hall listened to a Diana Krall album. He became sad and distraught. He shook his head and said, "This is going to cost me -- how much?" It seems that there is a particular place in one of the songs where it has sounded raspy and buzzy on every system he's ever heard it on, including the boss's $100K system - which sounds pretty danged awesome. He had decided the unpleasant sound was on the recording. These speakers just breeze through that section without a hint of trouble. He just kept shaking his head and mumbling to himself.
By the say, I repaired the "real" crossovers and I'm using those.
Thanks much to everyone who helped.
OH MY GOD!
I'm in my office listening to Angelique Kidjo's _Fifa_. How the heck does all that bass come out of those little 5.5" speakers? The clarity is incredible, too. The recent Nora Jones CD is transcendent. Life on a String by Laurie Anderson - what can I say? Even Tom Waits sounds better. I'm going through my whole collection.
My audiophile, cabinet-building friend down the hall listened to a Diana Krall album. He became sad and distraught. He shook his head and said, "This is going to cost me -- how much?" It seems that there is a particular place in one of the songs where it has sounded raspy and buzzy on every system he's ever heard it on, including the boss's $100K system - which sounds pretty danged awesome. He had decided the unpleasant sound was on the recording. These speakers just breeze through that section without a hint of trouble. He just kept shaking his head and mumbling to himself.
By the say, I repaired the "real" crossovers and I'm using those.
Thanks much to everyone who helped.
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