Are you ACTIVE ?? (multi-way)

[edd9000]

There's more than one way to skin a cat - it might be stretching the consensus on definition of "active", but I'll pipe in anyway on what can be easily achieved with some of today's surround receivers - even the more costly of which represent to my thinking the best bang for buck in mainstream commercial home consumer products.

Specifically, Onkyo TX-NR818, but there are likely other higher end models by numerous makers that allow for it.

Many of these now contain at least 7 on-board amp channels, not all of which will necessarily be used in every set-up - I've yet to figure out how to sneak in the 3rd "pair - some have function for digital XO and assignment of unused channels ( front height/width, I think) for bi-amping of front mains.

I've done this a couple of times with some proto-type 2-ways, and it works quite well. As all my speakers happen to be wide-band "full-rangers" with no internal crossovers / filters, I'd call that an "active" system, but of course, others will debate that point.

I used a receiver with HDMI in to initially experiment with software dsp crossovers. The software just sees 8 output channels. I used reaper and ls-filter as the crossover.

 

[koja]

yes, working, working haaard on going active! taking forever though since it is 100% DiY incl. amps: GC, F5, ACA with an 8-channel pre (Juma bf862) with relay attenuators. 2x10Hd miniDSP will be the XO. I have these OB babies waiting for it all:

15" Eminence Definimax
8" Visaton B200
SS 10F4424
Vifa OX20SC00 (will be added passively to keep it 3-way)


p.s. may be looking for spk development advice in a few months when the electronics is ready (in hindsight should have bought some rather than make it all but too late now..)

 

[Coytee]

I'm curious as to how many board members use active crossovers?

At least a 2 way?

How about 3 way systems ?

With a full blown 4 way, being of course, the cat's meow

I'm curious on this because, it seems to me, that around 1980 there were several active crossovers on the market, but these days, other than Marchand, not so much. Or am I missing something ?

I've read the thread and still can't get this out of my mind.

I've come to believe (after hearing it with my own ears) that fewer ways are better than more ways.

So, what I'm saying is that a 2-way is better than a 3-way which is better than the cat's meow 4-way.

Fewer ways is easier to integrate and what I discovered going from a 3-way to a 2-way allowed the sound to meld together into a coherent wave front about 10 feet away from the speakers rather than (literally) 30 feet (I measured)

I would think that people would want to push to the degree they can, towards fewer crossover points rather than more.

For those that are a fan of 3-4-5 way speakers, what am I missing?

 

[Scott L]

Proof is in the pudding

I've read the thread and still can't get this out of my mind.

I've come to believe (after hearing it with my own ears) that fewer ways are better than more ways.

So, what I'm saying is that a 2-way is better than a 3-way which is better than the cat's meow 4-way.

Fewer ways is easier to integrate and what I discovered going from a 3-way to a 2-way allowed the sound to meld together into a coherent wave front about 10 feet away from the speakers rather than (literally) 30 feet (I measured)

I would think that people would want to push to the degree they can, towards fewer crossover points rather than more.

For those that are a fan of 3-4-5 way speakers, what am I missing?

So, come on over and listen. I had a single attendee audition yesterday afternoon. He was another local club member. We disagree on our respective approaches, but on an overall basis, he liked what he heard. My DIY 4 way is pretty close to an all out assault, and in quite a different league than commercial offerings. Our local club member who I shall call the professor, said it's the best in the region. I usually brew a pot of coffee for consumption while listening, but the Good Doctor usually has a brewsky

 

[Flaesh]

I expected "brewsky"=beer+whisky but wiktionary said it's only simple beer

 

[Coytee]

I might actually enjoy doing that after the Holidays! (we're having my wife's wheelchair bound niece visit for 2 weeks and I commit my vacation time to when she visits)

By the way, are you Scott "F" or is "L" the beginning of your last name? (trying to verify if you are a Scott I've met before)

I live in Greenback (between Lenoir City & Maryville), what part of Ktown do you live?

 

[Scott L]

I might actually enjoy doing that after the Holidays! (we're having my wife's wheelchair bound niece visit for 2 weeks and I commit my vacation time to when she visits)

By the way, are you Scott "F" or is "L" the beginning of your last name? (trying to verify if you are a Scott I've met before)

I live in Greenback (between Lenoir City & Maryville), what part of Ktown do you live?

Will send a PM, since any further info is local only and very much O/T

 

[Juhazi]

4-way actives here. My AINOgradient project here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/231353-aino-gradient-collaborative-speaker-project.html

Subwoofers SEAS L26ROY sealed monopole
Woofers Beyma 12" dipole
Mids B&G Neo8-PDR dipole
Tweeters FountekNeoCD3.5H and backfire 1" domes bipole (R attenuated passively), both protected with a Mundorf Supreme cap

Amps are B&O ICEPower modules, 125ASX for W and W, 50ASX2 for M and T, one box for each speaker.

Minidsp 4x10HD, connected to AV-amplifier's pre-outs. Surround and center channels are passive 2-ways, used for TV and movie sound.

I have never tried to design passive xo. These speakers fulfill my dream of having top-class dipole speakers. 'The system is easy to use, minidsp and amps have power on 24/7. I have utilized the dsp for a prototype 3-way too.

 

[5th element]

I've been active for years, once analogue active and have now been digital active for a couple of years and would never go back. Even if it's only stereo with some DSP capabilities + a passive xover, that gives you far more flexibility than just the passive xover on its own. Then you start adding in extra channels and things become even 'easier' or flexible.

There is a point of diminishing returns to this, in terms of having a multiway system and in terms of how many of the drivers have their own channel of DSP/amplification, but largely that depends entirely on the system itself. Some systems require copious amounts of EQ, some open baffles for example, and some systems will benefit tremendously from the delay stages that can easily be added with DSP systems, such as some horn arrangements.

Some systems cannot function without an active arrangement and some will work decently when run passive, but from my experience every system will benefit to some degree if it's run active.

 

[CharlieLaub]

I've never built a loudspeaker that used a passive crossover! I spent some time cataloging all the possible analog active circuits and then designed a "universal" board that could implement many of them only to have miniDSP pop on to the scene. The ability to program many, many filters into one DSP and change them as needed to tweak the system response or to re-use in another system makes DSP a no-brainer for me now. I developed a loudspeaker crossover design tool set for active/DSP (IIR) systems and use this exclusively for my systems including open baffle and boxed. This is not the end of the road, but rather the current DIY state of the art, and I am sure that additions and improvements in DSP multiway crossover are still coming. It's an exciting time for DIY loudspeaker builders for sure.

 

[djn]

Here is my system. I tri-amp and switch out amps offten but the speakers are Heils(7000hz) round tractrix horns with JBL 2441 CDs(700hz) 15" Lambda TD15X(80hz) and four subs from 80hz on down.

I am in the middle of a Steve Bench 3 way tube crossover build but before I finish it, I'll nail the xover points with the DBX and Rane.

 

[F1 FAN]

Very Active."Budget" 3 way using Vifa NE25VTA 1"Al dome,Peerless 830872 4.5"mid, Peerless 830886 10".
6 x Hypex UcD 180 and analog crossover(340hz, 2k).Prefered the sound of the opamp based xover vs MiniDsp 2x4.

 

[Scott L]

FountekNeoCD3.5H

4-way actives here. My AINOgradient project here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/231353-aino-gradient-collaborative-speaker-project.html

Subwoofers SEAS L26ROY sealed monopole
Woofers Beyma 12" dipole
Mids B&G Neo8-PDR dipole
Tweeters FountekNeoCD3.5H and backfire 1" domes bipole (R attenuated passively), both protected with a Mundorf Supreme cap

Amps are B&O ICEPower modules, 125ASX for W and W, 50ASX2 for M and T, one box for each speaker.

Minidsp 4x10HD, connected to AV-amplifier's pre-outs. Surround and center channels are passive 2-ways, used for TV and movie sound.

I have never tried to design passive xo. These speakers fulfill my dream of having top-class dipole speakers. 'The system is easy to use, minidsp and amps have power on 24/7. I have utilized the dsp for a prototype 3-way too.

surprise, surprise. I am currently also using a FountekNeoCD3.5H. Also protected with an in-line series cap, and driven by a solid state class A amp.
At 93 db/watt, it's the least sensitive of the group, but it does remarkably well. A real true gem of a find. I bought them only because they were on-sale @ the Maddy and I like collecting these new age ribbons. 15 years ago, a ribbon was not as good as today.

 

[Juhazi]

4-way actives here. My AINOgradient project here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/231353-aino-gradient-collaborative-speaker-project.html

I forgot to say that an acoustic measurement system is crucial with this kind of systems. It is enormous waste of recources to tune this kind of system without it. Acoustic measurements are needed for each driver's eq, crossover setting, phase and delay matching.

For this I have UMIK-1 and REW+ARTA+Holmimpulse+TrueRTA

Full picture of the previous version with Peerless NE95 pair as mids in MTM.

 

[Charles Darwin]

For those that are a fan of 3-4-5 way speakers, what am I missing?

Going by my own experiences with adding a dedicated bass to my Tannoys what you are missing is clean midrange from a driver unencumbered by bass-duties.

Personally I think 3way is the sweet spot with 4way sometimes being necessary for higher output systems.
Currently I use 4way with a supertweeter which becomes more and more pointless as my age advances. But there is no way I would go back to 2way.

 

[Coytee]

Going by my own experiences with adding a dedicated bass to my Tannoys what you are missing is clean midrange from a driver unencumbered by bass-duties.

Personally I think 3way is the sweet spot with 4way sometimes being necessary for higher output systems.
Currently I use 4way with a supertweeter which becomes more and more pointless as my age advances. But there is no way I would go back to 2way.

So, I've got a 2-way horn system. I'm crossing to my HF horn at 400Hz (LR24 if that matters) and crossing to the bass bin at 450 (LR24).

Would this HF driver be considered encumbered or unencumbered by bass duties with that crossover point? (HF driver is a TAD-4002)

 

[Scott L]

clarification

So, I've got a 2-way horn system. I'm crossing to my HF horn at 400Hz (LR24 if that matters) and crossing to the bass bin at 450 (LR24).

Would this HF driver be considered encumbered or unencumbered by bass duties with that crossover point? (HF driver is a TAD-4002)

The simple, quick & easy answer is no. Having said that, what Charles is referring to is that a driver being asked to reproduce bass AND mid range will always suffer from modulation distortion. Taking this a but further, we can examine the signal being fed to the compression driver given in your example.
I'll have to assume here, that this is a speaker level, passive crossover (?)
Actually, I can progress either way. The LR24 signal will be down 48db at 100Hz, and 72 db down at 50Hz. That's if it works "textbook" ; an active crossover would be. If the "main" speaker was relieved of reproducing sub-bass, the the resulting signal being fed to EITHER the the mid range driver, OR, the compression driver would be reduced even further by what ever active crossover slope is being used. Let's just say LR24 for the sake of discussion. If the sub/main crossover was at 100Hz, the signal fed to the compression driver would then again be reduced by another 24db (with respect to bass frequencies).
So, I asked an accomplished engineer last night: "Of the 3 types of distortion I mention here in a moment, which is the most audible. 1) phase distortion, 2) harmonic distortion, 3) modulation distortion ?"
In a quick and resounding reply, he answered, "modulation distortion".
Paul Klipsch would agree.

 

[Charles Darwin]

So, I've got a 2-way horn system. I'm crossing to my HF horn at 400Hz (LR24 if that matters) and crossing to the bass bin at 450 (LR24).

Would this HF driver be considered encumbered or unencumbered by bass duties with that crossover point? (HF driver is a TAD-4002)

Not exactly your regular cone'n'dome 2way now is it?

That said I am quite wary of asking more than a decade of any given driver as modulation distortion will rear its ugly head.
In your application I would have opted for a BMS co-axial compression driver over a single one. Particularly as you cross it 2/3 octave below the manufacturers recommendation.

I generally agree with Scott L.

 

[Coytee]

I'm not a very technical person and, these are not DIY. They are 2-way horns. Folded horn bass bin and a pretty large modified Tractrix HF horn. The HF horn measures something near 20x35 inches inside dimension (not including the outer mounting lip)

I actively biamp using an Electrovoice Dx38 using factory (anechoic) provided profile.

The HF horn is a 2" horn and the TAD is using its included adapter to take it from 1 1/2" to 2".

This is PWK's swansong as he was trying to design the Khorn II and return it to the 2-way speaker that he wanted all along.

This is in part what I don't get.... you have someone like PWK who was striving to take his vaunted Khorn "back" to a 2-way and we have others who are looking for 3-4-other way speakers.

With the sensitivity that this beast has, there isn't any issue with lacking for volume so the system doesn't get strained too much and stays very well behaved.

Scott... I don't remember.... when you came to visit, did you hear the Khorns or the Jubliee's?

The bass bins have a PEQ to boost them up a bit at 32Hz since at those levels "it acts more like a direct radiator" (or something like that). The PEQ is considered optional and not part of Klipsch's standard profile.

For low duties, I have at hand (and not installed) two Danley DTS-10's but the wife wasn't impressed when they arrived and they're still sitting in the garage as I work on plan B,C,D,E,F and G on how to get them into the room.

The Jubilee's provide ample bottom end. I just happen to be one that loves to feel the foundation of the house shake. I've lived without subwoofers for over 35 years.

 

[Coytee]

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

Trying to attach a picture, guess we'll see if it works.

(side note, this speaker is not mine. Though I have the same thing, mine is industrial black and the pretty finish wasn't available when I bought them)