up to 1000
well it depends, but not a whole board
nope
i think for me its really best to buy something premade...
im currently also looking into cheap premade dacs with i2s input over hdmi or ethernet ... that would still allow me to make a ak4137 adapter hardware resampler
pecanpi might be another high end solution... 500 euro for the plus version
Okay.
Why hdmi or ethernet, why anything with a Pi in it? Those things are asking for trouble: sound quality problems or else extra money to fix the SQ back to were it would be if you chose well-implemented Asynchronous USB instead.
Also, if you are serious about the hobby going forward, a scope and the ability to solder SMD add a great deal to what you could do. If you had those things now you could spend $200 or so building a MarcelvdG RTZ DSD FIRDAC. As it is now a completed dac of that quality might cost you well more than $1,000. That said, $200 might get you up and running, but bringing it to its full potential could be done incrementally over time and in smaller units of cost.
Or, there are other options starting maybe around $1,500 Euros.
OTOH, if $1,000 is your ceiling and you want the best SQ you can get using a finished board, you may as well buy the best Topping or SMSL you can afford and see if you can be happy with it. Why do I say that? Its because the biggest cost of making one of these really good dacs is all the support circuitry. A good USB board with good clock (or with external clocks), clean isolated power supplies for everything. Two clean isolated linear power supplies just for the USB board. IOW, the biggest cost isn't going to be the dac board. And if you don't pick a good enough dac board you can throw all the money you want into surrounding circuitry and the results may still be poor.
At least if you go buy a Topping or SMSL, they have already designed everything to be about equally compromised so as to be able to hit your price point in a balanced performance way.
....
The other thing we should talk about is AK4137. Why do you want/need that? For DSD conversion, or for some other purpose? It can be useful in some cases, but it may not always be the best solution for certain problems.
Why hdmi or ethernet, why anything with a Pi in it? Those things are asking for trouble: sound quality problems or else extra money to fix the SQ back to were it would be if you chose well-implemented Asynchronous USB instead.
Also, if you are serious about the hobby going forward, a scope and the ability to solder SMD add a great deal to what you could do. If you had those things now you could spend $200 or so building a MarcelvdG RTZ DSD FIRDAC. As it is now a completed dac of that quality might cost you well more than $1,000. That said, $200 might get you up and running, but bringing it to its full potential could be done incrementally over time and in smaller units of cost.
Or, there are other options starting maybe around $1,500 Euros.
OTOH, if $1,000 is your ceiling and you want the best SQ you can get using a finished board, you may as well buy the best Topping or SMSL you can afford and see if you can be happy with it. Why do I say that? Its because the biggest cost of making one of these really good dacs is all the support circuitry. A good USB board with good clock (or with external clocks), clean isolated power supplies for everything. Two clean isolated linear power supplies just for the USB board. IOW, the biggest cost isn't going to be the dac board. And if you don't pick a good enough dac board you can throw all the money you want into surrounding circuitry and the results may still be poor.
At least if you go buy a Topping or SMSL, they have already designed everything to be about equally compromised so as to be able to hit your price point in a balanced performance way.
....
The other thing we should talk about is AK4137. Why do you want/need that? For DSD conversion, or for some other purpose? It can be useful in some cases, but it may not always be the best solution for certain problems.
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so everything can be upsampled to DSD .... with my Aune X8 with ESS chip im pretty certain that DSD gets handled better than PCM by the dac
the Ak4137 would be one of the only solutions to upsample in realtime to DSD from all sources without beefy hardware like you need for hqplayer (tho with less quality but i think the main benefit comes from PCM vs DSD played by the delta sigma chip...)
i just wanna test that theory, if the AK4137 would really make a difference, hqplayer is one thing, ak4137 might be another but other people reported here that ak4137 can do around 50-80% of hqplayer which is probably a win
no you missunderstood me.... if a premade dac has i2s input over ethernet or hdmi i could use that one and built an "usb to ak4137 to i2s" box to connect to the dac.. instead of building a whole dac
hmm well i was looking into getting a hot air "gun/solderiron" for some time, it might be a good idea to do it now
this was kinda my idea, tho i thought it would be easier to get my hands on "good" components for cheaper or ready made
i definitely believe in implementation etc, and how caps, opamps, power supplys,wiring etc can sound different
if i wouldnt try to avoid the ESS chips i would probably get ian canadas dac + output stage but i had now 3 ESS dacs... its time for something new and people keep yelling about the bright sounding ESS chips and im annoyed too by the highs...
Okay. A few things about some of that. First, AK4137 conversion of PCM sounds best if converted to DSD256. To do that properly requires two AK4137 chips. One to upsample to 24/192, and the other to do the DSD conversion. There is already a project in the forum to do that called something like, DSD'it!
However, AK4137 is an asynchronous converter, whereas PCM->DSD256 sounds a LOT better if done synchronously in an FPGA chip. There is also a project in the forum to do that, which is called something like, Simple DSD Converter...
SQ of that is IMHO better than some of HQ Player if well implemented. The best of HQ player may still be best though. Depends on the dac, the music, the system, etc.
DAC boards not in a case use a form of I2S which is at LVCMOS signal levels. DACs in a case that offer I2S over an HDMI connector (its not really HDMI, just the same connector) use LVDS signal levels. Also, DACs in a box that allow for I2S over LVDS usually then convert the I2S to LVCMOS, then pass it through a CPLD chip (which handles signal routing among other things). Thus, jitter may be worse than if LVCMOS I2S and an MCLK signal had been used directly.
Moving along then to the subject of soldering SMD. What works for me is to use a soldering microscope like this: https://www.amazon.com/AmScope-SE400-Z-Professional-Microscope-Magnification/dp/B005C75IVM/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=2QDE32FDK9OE4&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.eX13iA3CMh1RolTks91eyGjpuMN5zbVZsxJBIpwe9mzpxQipoYrVUodOmnNI7jh0iGNA-TYOMnuu8T4hGe_jUku9haKIOT9w6GdAiNnrncOfLPUN4kch99Hy1YwIpAfZrR-c5frkvIXGXfdINEOZavfOBwRCEHUTpVn3s-MMA2iOWnivd66UeSKS-k5MSQLgnchh2o20epAxaesvweaWAFKeW0dsIUTcJy7V-iYMcuw.WRR9DW14STP39dRZp5Q0cDivJU2ol8mhz77xGiic3SE&dib_tag=se&keywords=soldering+microscope+amscope&qid=1711376970&sprefix=soldering+microscope+amscope,aps,146&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1
Point is it should be optical and binocular/stereo for good depth perception. Digital microscopes aren't as good for hand-eye coordination.
For soldering small stuff, Aven titanium tweezers with a bent tip. Non-magnetic and high precsion.
Very small diameter lead-free solder for the small stuff. Less than .5mm diameter, maybe closer to .25mm.
I also use a Hakko micro-soldering handpiece with a couple of very small chisel tips for the small stuff. I use a standard size Hakko handpiece and tips for larger stuff.
Also have a hot air station. Its a highly recommended one but don't remember the model number offhand at the moment.
Best to avoid the all-in-one solder-irons/hot-air stations from China.
However, AK4137 is an asynchronous converter, whereas PCM->DSD256 sounds a LOT better if done synchronously in an FPGA chip. There is also a project in the forum to do that, which is called something like, Simple DSD Converter...
SQ of that is IMHO better than some of HQ Player if well implemented. The best of HQ player may still be best though. Depends on the dac, the music, the system, etc.
DAC boards not in a case use a form of I2S which is at LVCMOS signal levels. DACs in a case that offer I2S over an HDMI connector (its not really HDMI, just the same connector) use LVDS signal levels. Also, DACs in a box that allow for I2S over LVDS usually then convert the I2S to LVCMOS, then pass it through a CPLD chip (which handles signal routing among other things). Thus, jitter may be worse than if LVCMOS I2S and an MCLK signal had been used directly.
Moving along then to the subject of soldering SMD. What works for me is to use a soldering microscope like this: https://www.amazon.com/AmScope-SE400-Z-Professional-Microscope-Magnification/dp/B005C75IVM/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=2QDE32FDK9OE4&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.eX13iA3CMh1RolTks91eyGjpuMN5zbVZsxJBIpwe9mzpxQipoYrVUodOmnNI7jh0iGNA-TYOMnuu8T4hGe_jUku9haKIOT9w6GdAiNnrncOfLPUN4kch99Hy1YwIpAfZrR-c5frkvIXGXfdINEOZavfOBwRCEHUTpVn3s-MMA2iOWnivd66UeSKS-k5MSQLgnchh2o20epAxaesvweaWAFKeW0dsIUTcJy7V-iYMcuw.WRR9DW14STP39dRZp5Q0cDivJU2ol8mhz77xGiic3SE&dib_tag=se&keywords=soldering+microscope+amscope&qid=1711376970&sprefix=soldering+microscope+amscope,aps,146&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1
Point is it should be optical and binocular/stereo for good depth perception. Digital microscopes aren't as good for hand-eye coordination.
For soldering small stuff, Aven titanium tweezers with a bent tip. Non-magnetic and high precsion.
Very small diameter lead-free solder for the small stuff. Less than .5mm diameter, maybe closer to .25mm.
I also use a Hakko micro-soldering handpiece with a couple of very small chisel tips for the small stuff. I use a standard size Hakko handpiece and tips for larger stuff.
Also have a hot air station. Its a highly recommended one but don't remember the model number offhand at the moment.
Best to avoid the all-in-one solder-irons/hot-air stations from China.
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it looks like dsd256 is possible with one chip but im not certain
i will look into it, thanks
what about http://jlsounds.com/products.html ? they also have a ak4493 dac + output board + usb input board (which actually looks quiet nice) the set would cost 160 euro which seems ok, not much more expensive than the china board to be honest
while i definitely look into DIY i have to see how fast i can do it myself, it might be still a better idea to buy something for now
Its possible but SQ suffers. Its not a recommended configuration in the AK4137 datasheet.
Regarding JL Sounds products, I2SoverUSB is good, but IMHO the optional external clock board they have is something I would not buy again. Don't know about the AK4493 dac. Might be okay, but AK4493 is not top of the line at AKM. That's despite AK4493 being used in a lot of professional or semi-professional gear. Besides AK4493 still needs an I2C controller to play DSD in volume bypass mode. It also needs good external power supplies, and a good output stage (which also needs power supplies).
Also, see you posted in MarcelvdG's RTZ DSD FIRDAC thread. There is a post by me in that thread which leads to other posts recommended to read if considering that dac. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...t-register-firdac.379406/page-94#post-7457164
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Not the far akm chip...But the current SEQ version replaces the venerable AK4497...
Listen before judging...
for modularity it might be a good idea to get I2SoverUSB v.III and AK4493S combo + one of ian canadas output stages
i honestly have to try the ak4493, just to test AKM vs ESS even if newer chips might be better but no cheap-ish boards available yet... i dont like the pecan pie that much because you cant easly change opamps... (tho i would like to try the new 4499EX...)
and i definitely look into power supplys and other tweaks, the modularity and tweakability is one thing why i wanted to start a diy dac project... beside having now the idea with the AK4137...
well beside many people reporting nos sounds best im kinda still sceptical .. you just got 16 bit and the wave reconstruction trough resistors and switches doesnt seem to be that perfect either..
for now i probably stick with delta sigma... AKM can play DSD in "nos" mode, im not sure about ESS but that was one reason too to go for AKM
side question... can i check basic measurements with ADC? (line level input or mic input with preamp)
im currently looking into getting a Black Lion Audio Revolution 2x2 interface for several reasons... doing measurements would be one great deal, tho it doesnt has the best noise performance but seems to sound best from some comparisons i read ... this also gives me the chance to test a cs dac chip with somewhat good implementation
For measurements the Black Lion 2x2 is probably not a good choice. Maybe read the review of its measurements at ASR. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-revolution-2x2-review-audio-interface.22141/
Better to get a Cosmos ADC, and a Cosmos APU. You will need a notch filter for measurements anyway.
One last chance to get you to understand about AK4493, an acquaintance who visited my place twice wrote about the visit at:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dac-recommendation.376015/post-7560022
At some point he mentioned he was using an RME ADI-2 Pro (which uses AK4493) as his dac at one point. Read what he says about it. Sure, AK4493 probably sounds a little better tha the last generation of ESS with the Hyperstream II modulator. A little bit better still isn't all that close to what is possible. That said, I get where you are coming from. I was like you a few years ago. Like you are about to do I spent money finding out what AKM dacs sound like. By all means you should go ahead and do what you have to do. However we won't be surprised if you want to try yet another dac in a year or two.
Better to get a Cosmos ADC, and a Cosmos APU. You will need a notch filter for measurements anyway.
One last chance to get you to understand about AK4493, an acquaintance who visited my place twice wrote about the visit at:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dac-recommendation.376015/post-7560022
At some point he mentioned he was using an RME ADI-2 Pro (which uses AK4493) as his dac at one point. Read what he says about it. Sure, AK4493 probably sounds a little better tha the last generation of ESS with the Hyperstream II modulator. A little bit better still isn't all that close to what is possible. That said, I get where you are coming from. I was like you a few years ago. Like you are about to do I spent money finding out what AKM dacs sound like. By all means you should go ahead and do what you have to do. However we won't be surprised if you want to try yet another dac in a year or two.
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I have a jlsounds Ak4493 plus the USB input and DAC output boards very nice sounding combination. Good psus are important. Also get very good support from the seller.
Bruno Putzeys makes dacs under the Mola brand. They cost around $12k each or maybe a little more. People who have heard them say they are some of he best sounding dacs in world. I'm sure an AK4493 can sound very nice compared to something worse than AK4493. However, if that AK4493 is compared to a Mola dac, then suddenly the reality becomes apparent. The AK4493 will sound considerably worse, trust me.
The thing is, you never really know what is encoded on a CD until you hear it on an exceptionally good dac. It turns out that a well recorded CD can sound astonishingly good. You will never hear everything on a well recorded CD with most dacs. Of course, whole systems have their limitations too. There may be no point in having a dac way better than the rest of a system. There should be some balance in where resources are spent.
That said, @Ghoostknight said his DAC budget was up to $1k. With that one can build a pretty good diy dac nowadays. Have to be able to solder SMD is maybe the hardest part for most people. Also have be be willing to spend the $1k and do so wisely. Trying to find ways to cut corners at every opportunity is mindset of a Aliexpress dac board designer wanting to sell you junk. Why make your own junk if you have the budget to to do it right?
The thing is, you never really know what is encoded on a CD until you hear it on an exceptionally good dac. It turns out that a well recorded CD can sound astonishingly good. You will never hear everything on a well recorded CD with most dacs. Of course, whole systems have their limitations too. There may be no point in having a dac way better than the rest of a system. There should be some balance in where resources are spent.
That said, @Ghoostknight said his DAC budget was up to $1k. With that one can build a pretty good diy dac nowadays. Have to be able to solder SMD is maybe the hardest part for most people. Also have be be willing to spend the $1k and do so wisely. Trying to find ways to cut corners at every opportunity is mindset of a Aliexpress dac board designer wanting to sell you junk. Why make your own junk if you have the budget to to do it right?
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Hi Markw4:
Is there suggestion for multichannel DAC?
I'm looking for at least 6 channels for the 3-way DSP crossover.
Seems that the topping DM7 is one choice but it's discontinued and only have few stocks left.
Another one might be minidsp HTx but I don't need the added function since I'm doing DSP on the PC.
Is it possible to build the RTZ DSD FIRDAC and makes it into multichannel DAC?
You would need three of them to get six output channels. Plus you would need six channels of conversion to DSD. Could be done but it would be expensive, and a multi-channel USB driver might be needed for Windows.
Probably if I wanted 6-channels I would be looking for dac in a box using ES9039PRO to get 8-channels. Might sound better than an ES9038PRO. Probably cost effective. Or for people who are willing to spend more there are multichannel studio interfaces at various price points.